RE: Battle for the B-road: WRX STI vs S3 saloon

[Ali_T]

I don't get people saying the S3 is too dull and adding the Golf R to their list. I drove both and they were near identical in experience and near identical in being just a bit too omnicompetent and dull. The only difference I found was that the VW salesman was nicer than the condescending knobend from Audi, so I discounted the S3 completely on that basis. I would easily take the STI above both bar the fact that the EJ25 engine is still in use. Once the new turbo version of the FB20 is put in the STI, I'll be taking a long hard look again. Though I'd be even more likely to consider it if you could delete the rear wing like they can in the US.

Edited by Ali_T on Monday 13th April 17:18

[nickfrog]

Dblue said:

nickfrog said:

British Beef said:

Focus RS will definately put the cat amongst the pigeons.

For my £30k - #35k :
Focus RS 1st, (assumption without driving!)
Scooby 2nd,
Golf R 3rd,
Drove S3 and too dull and BMW 135 just too ugly

It happens to provide the best driving experience too (subjectively) out of that lot, so win-win for me ! It's also the cheapest.

I haven't read a single test of the Golf R against the M135i that had the BMW ahead.So whilst I agree about it being subjective its not proving a popular opinion when the 2 cars are driven back to back.

I can't remember tests where the tester preferred the Golf but that might be my selective memory or reading ;-). Not sure what you meant by "ahead" ? I really don't try to have a popular opinion, it's just mine, even if I am in a minority of 1. I don't tend to get influenced by other people's subjective views even when they are in an overwhelming majority, not that I don't think it's the case anyway. For my liking, the better balanced, lower pmoi, 6-pot engined M135i provides a significantly better driving experience back to back. For the record, I don't particularly value most testers' feedback, they rarely seem to understand the very basics of car dynamics. Not that I do either mind you, but at least it's not my job !

[Dblue]

nickfrog said:

Dblue said:

nickfrog said:

British Beef said:

Focus RS will definately put the cat amongst the pigeons.

For my £30k - #35k :
Focus RS 1st, (assumption without driving!)
Scooby 2nd,
Golf R 3rd,
Drove S3 and too dull and BMW 135 just too ugly

It happens to provide the best driving experience too (subjectively) out of that lot, so win-win for me ! It's also the cheapest.

I haven't read a single test of the Golf R against the M135i that had the BMW ahead.So whilst I agree about it being subjective its not proving a popular opinion when the 2 cars are driven back to back.

I can't remember tests where the tester preferred the Golf but that might be my selective memory or reading ;-). Not sure what you meant by "ahead" ? I really don't try to have a popular opinion, it's just mine, even if I am in a minority of 1. I don't tend to get influenced by other people's subjective views even when they are in an overwhelming majority, not that I don't think it's the case anyway. For my liking, the better balanced, lower pmoi, 6-pot engined M135i provides a significantly better driving experience back to back. For the record, I don't particularly value most testers' feedback, they rarely seem to understand the very basics of car dynamics. Not that I do either mind you, but at least it's not my job !

Mmm, suggest that EVO, CAR, Autocar all prefer the Golf, although the Megane is stil the sharper tool. The BMW has a fine engine but seems to be consistently judged to have a modest chassis by the standards of the class leaders. If you have reasonably extensive experience of all the contenders then you can second guess the journos but none of us do. So their opinions have some validity. Its also nonsense to suggest people like Richard Meaden, Chris Harris, Jethro and Henry Catchpole don't understand a cars dynamics??

Anyway, very off topic. Of the 2 cars here, Audi for me for the looks and the cabin.

[nickfrog]

You've just quoted the only journos who do seem to understand cars, I did say "most" ;-). I can't remember Car, EVO or Autocar saying they prefer the Golf, could you share as I may have missed that? They are very few back to back tests of both.

[Clivey]

nickfrog said:

There are very few back to back tests of both.

This genuinely surprises me. - I would've thought that it would've been one of the most anticipated tests before the Golf R was released.

[nickfrog]

Yes, strange. More M135i vs S3 tests though, so I guess extrapolating is OK. But nothing replaces testing the cars yourself, at the end of the day. It really doesn't matter what someone else may think.

[Niffty951]

Dblue said:

nickfrog said:

Dblue said:

nickfrog said:

British Beef said:

Focus RS will definately put the cat amongst the pigeons.

For my £30k - #35k :
Focus RS 1st, (assumption without driving!)
Scooby 2nd,
Golf R 3rd,
Drove S3 and too dull and BMW 135 just too ugly

It happens to provide the best driving experience too (subjectively) out of that lot, so win-win for me ! It's also the cheapest.

I haven't read a single test of the Golf R against the M135i that had the BMW ahead.So whilst I agree about it being subjective its not proving a popular opinion when the 2 cars are driven back to back.

I can't remember tests where the tester preferred the Golf but that might be my selective memory or reading ;-). Not sure what you meant by "ahead" ? I really don't try to have a popular opinion, it's just mine, even if I am in a minority of 1. I don't tend to get influenced by other people's subjective views even when they are in an overwhelming majority, not that I don't think it's the case anyway. For my liking, the better balanced, lower pmoi, 6-pot engined M135i provides a significantly better driving experience back to back. For the record, I don't particularly value most testers' feedback, they rarely seem to understand the very basics of car dynamics. Not that I do either mind you, but at least it's not my job !

Mmm, suggest that EVO, CAR, Autocar all prefer the Golf, although the Megane is stil the sharper tool. The BMW has a fine engine but seems to be consistently judged to have a modest chassis by the standards of the class leaders. If you have reasonably extensive experience of all the contenders then you can second guess the journos but none of us do. So their opinions have some validity. Its also nonsense to suggest people like Richard Meaden, Chris Harris, Jethro and Henry Catchpole don't understand a cars dynamics??

Anyway, very off topic. Of the 2 cars here, Audi for me for the looks and the cabin.

The M135i is a hell of a car. A real pleasure to own, lovely cabin to spend time in, practical loading space/seating, the engine feels a class above the 2.0T units in power, delivery, sound, satisfaction when winding out to the redline and 'amazingly' economy. I managed a calculated 40 MPG over a long drive from Plymouth up to Snowdonia (showing over 42 MPG on the display, 40 MPG comes from brim to brim tank refill method) and that even included a couple of 5 min bursts stretching the legs quite hard.

My A3 2.0 TFSI couldn't ever match that!

The brakes are fantastic too, really inspire confidence. Where it falls down as mentioned above is on the chassis and the lack of a limited slip differential as standard. It had a nasty habit of spinning the inside wheel hard out of bends and then unloading the pent up energy in a lurch as it regained traction. It could have learnt a lot form the E39 M5 I owned before it. That had beautiful manners.

I'd still buy the M135 again over any of the others mentioned if it wasn't for the strong pedal offset to the right that made my knee flair up and ended in physio!

[Ali_T]

Does your M135i have the optional adaptive suspension? The only one I test drove was on standard springs and dampers and I was amazed at how much it wallowed at lower speeds. Put me right off. My son even complained of feeling motion sick in the back.

[Dblue]

Niffty951 said:

Dblue said:

nickfrog said:

Dblue said:

nickfrog said:

British Beef said:

Focus RS will definately put the cat amongst the pigeons.

For my £30k - #35k :
Focus RS 1st, (assumption without driving!)
Scooby 2nd,
Golf R 3rd,
Drove S3 and too dull and BMW 135 just too ugly

It happens to provide the best driving experience too (subjectively) out of that lot, so win-win for me ! It's also the cheapest.

I haven't read a single test of the Golf R against the M135i that had the BMW ahead.So whilst I agree about it being subjective its not proving a popular opinion when the 2 cars are driven back to back.

I can't remember tests where the tester preferred the Golf but that might be my selective memory or reading ;-). Not sure what you meant by "ahead" ? I really don't try to have a popular opinion, it's just mine, even if I am in a minority of 1. I don't tend to get influenced by other people's subjective views even when they are in an overwhelming majority, not that I don't think it's the case anyway. For my liking, the better balanced, lower pmoi, 6-pot engined M135i provides a significantly better driving experience back to back. For the record, I don't particularly value most testers' feedback, they rarely seem to understand the very basics of car dynamics. Not that I do either mind you, but at least it's not my job !

Mmm, suggest that EVO, CAR, Autocar all prefer the Golf, although the Megane is stil the sharper tool. The BMW has a fine engine but seems to be consistently judged to have a modest chassis by the standards of the class leaders. If you have reasonably extensive experience of all the contenders then you can second guess the journos but none of us do. So their opinions have some validity. Its also nonsense to suggest people like Richard Meaden, Chris Harris, Jethro and Henry Catchpole don't understand a cars dynamics??

Anyway, very off topic. Of the 2 cars here, Audi for me for the looks and the cabin.

The M135i is a hell of a car. A real pleasure to own, lovely cabin to spend time in, practical loading space/seating, the engine feels a class above the 2.0T units in power, delivery, sound, satisfaction when winding out to the redline and 'amazingly' economy. I managed a calculated 40 MPG over a long drive from Plymouth up to Snowdonia (showing over 42 MPG on the display, 40 MPG comes from brim to brim tank refill method) and that even included a couple of 5 min bursts stretching the legs quite hard.

My A3 2.0 TFSI couldn't ever match that!

The brakes are fantastic too, really inspire confidence. Where it falls down as mentioned above is on the chassis and the lack of a limited slip differential as standard. It had a nasty habit of spinning the inside wheel hard out of bends and then unloading the pent up energy in a lurch as it regained traction. It could have learnt a lot form the E39 M5 I owned before it. That had beautiful manners.

I'd still buy the M135 again over any of the others mentioned if it wasn't for the strong pedal offset to the right that made my knee flair up and ended in physio!

As a driving machine rather than an appliance the Renault totally monsters it. Better steering, better control weights , fantastic balance, remarkable grip and adjustability. Just a pleasure to drive down any B road (Which is what we were discussing)

As an all rounder the creamy engine and BMW premium cabin and experience may well be a more important factor but if your priority is how much fun it is to drive ....no contest.

Cant find the big comparisons on-line (they were in the magazine ) from the last 6 months in EVO and CAR but the BM was mid table in both behind the Megane, Golf R, Seat Leon. Back to back its flaws are more obvious perhaps.

Subaru has not done well head to head with the Golf R in stuff I've read either.

[nickfrog]

I thought you were comparing the Golf to the M135i. So not sure why you're introducing the Renault. For the record, I agree but a Caterham will monster both (I genuinely don't know what monster means in automotive terms though ;-)). I still haven't any of the articles you refer to, most reviews seems to prefer the M135i to the S3, including Dan Trent here. But if you find the Golf R more fun than the M135i, then that is your prerogative. You would be in a small minority, which is OK anyway, as discussed previously.

[Dblue]

nickfrog said:

I thought you were comparing the Golf to the M135i. So not sure why you're introducing the Renault. For the record, I agree but a Caterham will monster both (I genuinely don't know what monster means in automotive terms though ;-)). I still haven't any of the articles you refer to, most reviews seems to prefer the M135i to the S3, including Dan Trent here. But if you find the Golf R more fun than the M135i, then that is your prerogative. You would be in a small minority, which is OK anyway, as discussed previously.

You think I'm in the minority re the Golf R vs the 135i?? I don't think so, every major publication and web site has the Golf as the better car. But regardless, the comparison is of a WRX STi and an Audi S3, nothing whatsoever to do with the BMW. and should remain so. Off topic now so probably enough to-ing and fro-ing re those cars.

[nickfrog]

Dblue said:

nickfrog said:

I thought you were comparing the Golf to the M135i. So not sure why you're introducing the Renault. For the record, I agree but a Caterham will monster both (I genuinely don't know what monster means in automotive terms though ;-)). I still haven't any of the articles you refer to, most reviews seems to prefer the M135i to the S3, including Dan Trent here. But if you find the Golf R more fun than the M135i, then that is your prerogative. You would be in a small minority, which is OK anyway, as discussed previously.

You think I'm in the minority re the Golf R vs the 135i?? I don't think so, every major publication and web site has the Golf as the better car. But regardless, the comparison is of a WRX STi and an Audi S3, nothing whatsoever to do with the BMW. and should remain so. Off topic now so probably enough to-ing and fro-ing re those cars.

I disagree, introducing the M135i into the mix (which I didn't do) is fascinating and enhancing the discussion, the same way as introducing the Renault is (which you did).

Define "better"?. I haven't seen ANY major publication nor website having the Golf as the better car though, could you share please ?

In the meantime you may want to have a look at this as presumably the S3 is close to the Golf http://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-germancars/bmw-...

"Conclusion
The S3 is a great car by any measure. Well, any but this one sadly. In all but practicality and, to some eyes, pose value it's hard to escape the fact the M135i thumps it comprehensively across the board. If you need a more family orientated premium uber hatch the Sportback will be a much more convincing sell than the more self-centred BMW. But for the kind of feelgood factors we're looking for it's not a hard one to call. "

Edited by nickfrog on Tuesday 14th April 18:56

[Alucidnation]

nickfrog said:

In the meantime you may want to have a look at this as presumably the S3 is close to the Golf http://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-germancars/bmw-...

"Conclusion
The S3 is a great car by any measure. Well, any but this one sadly. In all but practicality and, to some eyes, pose value it's hard to escape the fact the M135i thumps it comprehensively across the board. If you need a more family orientated premium uber hatch the Sportback will be a much more convincing sell than the more self-centred BMW. But for the kind of feelgood factors we're looking for it's not a hard one to call. "

Edited by nickfrog on Tuesday 14th April 18:56

I hadn't read the article that you have quoted, however, i knew exactly who had written it before i clicked the link.

[Ved]

Ali_T said:

That's actually really nice! Flap cap rather baseball?

[nunpuncher]

Ali_T said:

I don't get people saying the S3 is too dull and adding the Golf R to their list. I drove both and they were near identical in experience and near identical in being just a bit too omnicompetent and dull. The only difference I found was that the VW salesman was nicer than the condescending knobend from Audi, so I discounted the S3 completely on that basis. I would easily take the STI above both bar the fact that the EJ25 engine is still in use. Once the new turbo version of the FB20 is put in the STI, I'll be taking a long hard look again. Though I'd be even more likely to consider it if you could delete the rear wing like they can in the US.

Edited by Ali_T on Monday 13th April 17:18

Wow, I thought it might look good without the wing but that really does look crap. It's like a tarted up previous model focus saloon.

[Ali_T]

Ved said:

That's actually really nice! Flap cap rather baseball?

Reminds me of the old Legacy S402, and that's a good thing IMO. If they'd just drop in the new engine, I might return. As long as the new RX7/8/9 doesn't get launched in the meantime, or the Giulia QV isn't M3 money, or the Focus RS doesn't kick everything else into touch, that is.

Edited by Ali_T on Wednesday 15th April 12:20

[budgie smuggler]

I really like it without the wing.

nunpuncher said:

Wow, I thought it might look good without the wing but that really does look crap. It's like a tarted up previous model focus saloon.

It looks nothing like that at all to me.

[Clivey]

nunpuncher said:

Wow, I thought it might look good without the wing but that really does look crap. It's like a tarted up previous model focus saloon.

I have similar thoughts upon seeing the A/S3 saloon; the hatch & sportback are much better resolved IMO, with the saloon looking too short and too chubby. I'd still pick the Subaru out of the two though because as long as it's not painted Barbie pink, with chrome spinners a merkin bonnet mascot, function > form.

[Clivey]

nickfrog said:

Yes, strange. More M135i vs S3 tests though, so I guess extrapolating is OK. But nothing replaces testing the cars yourself, at the end of the day. It really doesn't matter what someone else may think.

Yes. - We all have our own preferences and in my experience if you don't like, for example, baked beans (and I don't), then it doesn't matter whether they're the Heinz variety or 'Asda Smartprice'. Similarly, I know that I don't like Haldex 4 system (haven't tried the 5 yet but it appears to be only slightly better) in a performance car and so it doesn't matter whether that's in a Golf R or TTRS.

Re. the M135I; I wouldn't be surprised if it's like the old 130i in that there's first class potential in the chassis but requiring some suspension changed to realise it. The key is that all of the base ingredients are in place, whereas you just can't make any other current production hatch drive in the same way.

[nickfrog]

Correct Clivey mate. Looks like the M4 lower control arms fit the M135i for neg camber, fit H+R springs and tweak the toe when you do the alignment. £500/£600 and you're away. Endless pads if you must. LSD is you feel flush for wet weather (not essential for me). Mine's coming in 6 weeks, can't wait.