Blasphemy!: Revered driver's cars that you just don't get.

[optimal909]

RobM77 said:

Thanks. Oh yes, your closing statement should be displayed at the top of all forum threads on General Gassing! I couldn't agree more! I wish more people understood that.

People tend to see the world through their eyes, so if they would buy a Porsche 'because it's a Porsche' to make their £10-15k budget look more impressive, they assume someone with £100-150k to splurge on a brand new Panamera has done the same thing. That's obviously a rather sweeping assumption, and probably isn't true, because surely someone image focused could buy a whole range of exotic cars for that money (used 458, 599, DBS, MP4-12C etc).

You get the same annoying trend with 'BMW vs the rest' in saloon car threads and 'Apple vs the rest' in mobile phone threads - you generally get some people posting on such threads who've bought a Ford or Samsung (respectively in each case) who did so because they're obsessed with image and didn't want to be seen as showing off, but what those people then do is assume that everyone who buys a BMW car or Apple device is buying it to show off, and it's that jump of logic that's so flawed. I've been told this so many times about my BMW and to some extent my iPhone and it's quite ludicrous that people are that short sighted and self centered. Sure, everyone buys things for different reasons and 'peacocks' are a percentage of any owner group, but it's far from a given, especially with a bog standard £10k BMW or a £700 basic iPhone 6 - especially with those because both are absolutely everywhere in dull shades of grey and black. There's probably someone somewhere who thinks I bought my Bosch washing machine to show off to guests that come round - such a person probably deliberately buys some obscure brand of washing machine just to show that he's made an 'intelligent' choice and not followed the crowd.

Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 21st April 17:52

Believe it or not, there is some degree of consumer-idiocy involved when masses pay large amount of extra for only having a badge with no substance - in this case the action itself is a self declaration that "I have a superior understanding of style and quality", so why you're taking it personal when others acknowledge it? Louis Vuitton bags are ubiquitous as well, still being bought for the sense of occasion.

Obviously not everyone buys Apple or BMW to show off as both brands have products that stand out, but now that you mention it, most of the BMW drivers I know do have an iPhone.

[ORD]

Mound Dawg said:

There's a difference between "getting" a car and "wanting to own" it.

I've driven a few Caterhams and "get" the whole thing. I can see why people rave about them because they're the purest driving experience you'll ever get. Ask me if I'd own one, no sorry. Too impractical so if I did have one it would end up doing about 500 miles a year which would be a waste of a great car.

On the other hand, a Golf Gti would do most of what I need a car for but I don't get them because I don't feel that "specialness" that everyone else apparently feels when they drive one. For that reason, I wouldn't want to own one either though. I'd be paying extra for something of no benefit.

Has anyone ever said the GTI is special? I thought the whole point is that it's just a fast Golf without pretending to be anything else. I quite like it for that reason.

[SidewaysSi]

Mound Dawg said:

There's a difference between "getting" a car and "wanting to own" it.

I've driven a few Caterhams and "get" the whole thing. I can see why people rave about them because they're the purest driving experience you'll ever get. Ask me if I'd own one, no sorry. Too impractical so if I did have one it would end up doing about 500 miles a year which would be a waste of a great car.

On the other hand, a Golf Gti would do most of what I need a car for but I don't get them because I don't feel that "specialness" that everyone else apparently feels when they drive one. For that reason, I wouldn't want to own one either though. I'd be paying extra for something of no benefit.

It comes down to what qualities you value most. Some people want the image, the plastics, the speed etc.

Personally I care about dynamics above all else so for me a Caterham or Lotus is not only better than everything else but pretty much my dream cars. Being relatively affordable helps in realising that dream.

Everything else on the road seems like a compromise but sometimes compromises need to be made e.g. Having something I can use to carry people etc.

I don't think there is a one car solution and for me, trying to have one car that "does it all" leads to ultimate frustration as they are never brilliant at any one thing (Golf GTI, M3/M5 etc) but 6/10 across the board.

[captainsl0w]

Probably been said but the NA series Mazda mx5

I know its supposed to be an everyman sports car but in standard/near standard trim its;

Slow by all measures

Rolls/yaws massively

Too small and unergonomic for a reasonable sized man

In reality, looks aside it only serves to dilute/cheapen the sports car concept.

A car built for the automotive charlatan

[s m]

Patrick Bateman said:

ORD said:

Simple question - why? Why a 2 ton saloon with seats you don't need rather than a 1200kg sports car with the same engine and a more responsive drive, more steering feel, etc etc

Not always the case, especially with BMW.

What if your sports saloon only weighs 1200kg ?

[theboss]

SidewaysSi said:

It comes down to what qualities you value most. Some people want the image, the plastics, the speed etc.

Personally I care about dynamics above all else so for me a Caterham or Lotus is not only better than everything else but pretty much my dream cars. Being relatively affordable helps in realising that dream.

Everything else on the road seems like a compromise but sometimes compromises need to be made e.g. Having something I can use to carry people etc.

I don't think there is a one car solution and for me, trying to have one car that "does it all" leads to ultimate frustration as they are never brilliant at any one thing (Golf GTI, M3/M5 etc) but 6/10 across the board.

So how do you cope with the prospect of, say, driving across France or Germany with a passenger or two and some luggage, in comfort and at a fair pace? Would you not agree that something like a large, powerful saloon would be 9 or 10/10 in that scenario? What would be better for the job? What if you didn't need to transport the passengers or luggage - would you happily embark on an 800 mile journey in an uncompromised Caterham?

For me an M5/RS6/E63 is a 10/10 car for 99% of my needs and wants. A lotus or caterham would be 11/10 for 1% but 1/10
the rest of the time.

Before you suggest I don't live in the real world I've put 3000 miles on my M5 in the last month and its going across Germany and back, and down to Spain and back, in the next few months. Yes - I hate flying

[RobM77]

castex said:

I've driven one Caterham. It was on a track and it was a disaster. Understeered for England and was wholly shown up by the Renault Sport Spider I drove straight afterwards.
I fully believe that the example I drove was tired and the tyres it wore on the front were totally wrecked.
I'd still have the Renault. That's just me.

Caterhams are notoriously sensitive to setup and I've driven just as many that handle really badly as those that handle well. In fact I've owned two - one was a dream and one was a dog. In fairness to Caterham, my positive comments are all assuming that the car in question is a good example with alignment set correctly, decent tyres etc. The same can be said of any car, but with something like a Caterham it's extremely important.

[RobM77]

optimal909 said:

RobM77 said:

Thanks. Oh yes, your closing statement should be displayed at the top of all forum threads on General Gassing! I couldn't agree more! I wish more people understood that.

People tend to see the world through their eyes, so if they would buy a Porsche 'because it's a Porsche' to make their £10-15k budget look more impressive, they assume someone with £100-150k to splurge on a brand new Panamera has done the same thing. That's obviously a rather sweeping assumption, and probably isn't true, because surely someone image focused could buy a whole range of exotic cars for that money (used 458, 599, DBS, MP4-12C etc).

You get the same annoying trend with 'BMW vs the rest' in saloon car threads and 'Apple vs the rest' in mobile phone threads - you generally get some people posting on such threads who've bought a Ford or Samsung (respectively in each case) who did so because they're obsessed with image and didn't want to be seen as showing off, but what those people then do is assume that everyone who buys a BMW car or Apple device is buying it to show off, and it's that jump of logic that's so flawed. I've been told this so many times about my BMW and to some extent my iPhone and it's quite ludicrous that people are that short sighted and self centered. Sure, everyone buys things for different reasons and 'peacocks' are a percentage of any owner group, but it's far from a given, especially with a bog standard £10k BMW or a £700 basic iPhone 6 - especially with those because both are absolutely everywhere in dull shades of grey and black. There's probably someone somewhere who thinks I bought my Bosch washing machine to show off to guests that come round - such a person probably deliberately buys some obscure brand of washing machine just to show that he's made an 'intelligent' choice and not followed the crowd.

Edited by RobM77 on Tuesday 21st April 17:52

Believe it or not, there is some degree of consumer-idiocy involved when masses pay large amount of extra for only having a badge with no substance - in this case the action itself is a self declaration that "I have a superior understanding of style and quality", so why you're taking it personal when others acknowledge it? Louis Vuitton bags are ubiquitous as well, still being bought for the sense of occasion.

Obviously not everyone buys Apple or BMW to show off as both brands have products that stand out, but now that you mention it, most of the BMW drivers I know do have an iPhone.

QED. Thanks for proving my point!

[cerb4.5lee]

SidewaysSi said:

I don't think there is a one car solution and for me, trying to have one car that "does it all" leads to ultimate frustration as they are never brilliant at any one thing (Golf GTI, M3/M5 etc) but 6/10 across the board.

Completely agree with this and that was exactly how I felt about my M3 when I was hoping it would be a "do it all car" and an ideal for me would be a M4/M5/M6 and a Caterham tucked away in the garage too.

[RobM77]

cerb4.5lee said:

SidewaysSi said:

I don't think there is a one car solution and for me, trying to have one car that "does it all" leads to ultimate frustration as they are never brilliant at any one thing (Golf GTI, M3/M5 etc) but 6/10 across the board.

Completely agree with this and that was exactly how I felt about my M3 when I was hoping it would be a "do it all car" and an ideal for me would be a M4/M5/M6 and a Caterham tucked away in the garage too.

It's a bit like trying to find an album to suit all moods and situations - impossible and anything that tries to would sound too contrived and be the worst of both worlds.

[Leins]

ORD said:

Simple question - why? Why a 2 ton saloon with seats you don't need rather than a 1200kg sports car with the same engine and a more responsive drive, more steering feel, etc etc

Because there's also something unconventional about a performance saloon with a badass engine in it, and therein lies the appeal, for me anyway. They're fun because of what they are and what they try to do. God, and me, loves a trier!

[Zod]

castex said:

I've driven one Caterham. It was on a track and it was a disaster. Understeered for England and was wholly shown up by the Renault Sport Spider I drove straight afterwards.
I fully believe that the example I drove was tired and the tyres it wore on the front were totally wrecked.
I'd still have the Renault. That's just me.

Something wrong with that Caterham. My first time was at PalmerSport and I could steer the car on the throttle at will (despite my lack of skills). It was an absolute hoot.

[Gad-Westy]

RobM77 said:

It's a bit like trying to find an album to suit all moods and situations - impossible and anything that tries to would sound too contrived and be the worst of both worlds.

Been reading this thread with interest as most of the cars I love have been bashed in one way or another!

I'm with you on the Caterham thing Rob. I love that type of car at all speeds. Yes, they're at their best on track or attacking a well sighted B-Road (the well sighted bit is important!) but I also loved my Westfields at low speeds. Such an event and assault on the senses almost unique to that type of car. Utterly dreadful on a long wet motorway journey of course but probably worth the effort, destination dependent.

I've just bought my first genuinely powerful saloon (though it certainly didn't cost new M5 money). The reason I bought it was simply down to my typical car usage and getting back to enjoying driving. I have two young kids and work quite long hours. I therefore don't often get to set the alarm for 6am and go for a blast in a sportscar for the hell of it (even when I've had one at my disposal). My mileage is made up of business, family days out, family weekends away and holidays. In theory, our old Volvo S60 is perfect for that but god is it boring to drive. If I'm driving to France for example, its nice to have a comfortable spacious car to cart the family down there but will not fall apart on the twisty roads when they appear. Likewise if I go away for work, the vast majority of miles might be on the motorway but there might still be 20 miles of lovely B-Roads at the end of it. One cannot simply have a Boxster parked up waiting for you in a lay by when the roads get interesting. A big engine saloon with decent handling makes perfect sense to me. Would still fancy a Caterham or Exige in the garage mind!

[optimal909]

RobM77 said:

QED. Thanks for proving my point!

What you have proven is that you are completely in write-only mode.

[BrownBottle]

s m said:

What if your sports saloon only weighs 1200kg ?

I did feel like mentioning my old Sri 130 probably weighed less than that

[SidewaysSi]

theboss said:

So how do you cope with the prospect of, say, driving across France or Germany with a passenger or two and some luggage, in comfort and at a fair pace? Would you not agree that something like a large, powerful saloon would be 9 or 10/10 in that scenario? What would be better for the job? What if you didn't need to transport the passengers or luggage - would you happily embark on an 800 mile journey in an uncompromised Caterham?

For me an M5/RS6/E63 is a 10/10 car for 99% of my needs and wants. A lotus or caterham would be 11/10 for 1% but 1/10
the rest of the time.

Before you suggest I don't live in the real world I've put 3000 miles on my M5 in the last month and its going across Germany and back, and down to Spain and back, in the next few months. Yes - I hate flying

In such a scenario of course I can see the appeal of a super saloon but personally I don't do much of that sort of driving (me with one or two others and luggage) and certainly nothing that a relatively punchy E36/E39 couldn't handle perfectly well.

I would be more than happy to do such a journey in a Caterham and especially my Elise S1 (it has a hardtop). In fact I spent last Saturday behind the wheel of the Seven (Tilley seat, harnesses and ear defenders) for almost 12 hours on a variety of motorways, A and B roads and crawling through towns. Put about 350 miles on the thing and loved every minute!

[coppice]

I love Caterhams but was reminded of their not always perfect demeanour on bumpy minor roads the other day. Would not have wanted to go much quicker and very busy keeping it on the black stuff on the ruts and bumps- which is why the ancient Laguna caught me ...But it's all part of the game; every journey is an adventure and on the right road or track it will humble a supercar but on the wrong one you still have fun but you will no longer believe you are a driving god. I have said before to non owners that you cannot believe how quick they can be and you'll struggle to believe how slowly you sometimes need to drive them.

[ewenm]

theboss said:

So how do you cope with the prospect of, say, driving across France or Germany with a passenger or two and some luggage, in comfort and at a fair pace? Would you not agree that something like a large, powerful saloon would be 9 or 10/10 in that scenario? What would be better for the job? What if you didn't need to transport the passengers or luggage - would you happily embark on an 800 mile journey in an uncompromised Caterham?

I've done those sort of journeys in a Caterham, sometimes with the OH, sometimes alone. Always an adventure, picking non-motorway routes, exploring new places, turning an A-B journey into A-C-D-E-F-G-H-B.

No doubt the saloon would be more comfortable, faster A-B and less tiring. I like having adventures though

[SidewaysSi]

coppice said:

I love Caterhams but was reminded of their not always perfect demeanour on bumpy minor roads the other day. Would not have wanted to go much quicker and very busy keeping it on the black stuff on the ruts and bumps- which is why the ancient Laguna caught me ...But it's all part of the game; every journey is an adventure and on the right road or track it will humble a supercar but on the wrong one you still have fun but you will no longer believe you are a driving god. I have said before to non owners that you cannot believe how quick they can be and you'll struggle to believe how slowly you sometimes need to drive them.

Entirely agree and there's the challenge. I am nowhere near the level I can drive a Seven hard in the wet along a bumpy B-road but it's something to work to.

Interestingly I think Caterham have increased the stiffness of springs and dampers for their new R range. My car (K series Superlight) was noticeably better riding than a new 360R on such a road. Of course I am happy to be proved wrong!

[RobM77]

SidewaysSi said:

Interestingly I think Caterham have increased the stiffness of springs and dampers for their new R range. My car (K series Superlight) was noticeably better riding than a new 360R on such a road. Of course I am happy to be proved wrong!

I wonder if that's due to the increased mass of the car now it has the slightly heavier metric chassis and duratec engine? I don't know that, just a pondering...