Blasphemy!: Revered driver's cars that you just don't get.
Discussion
If anyone's as late as me catching up with this thread, save yourself some time with this brief breakdown of the conversation to date.
40% an F40 looks like a kit car and who cares/I wouldn’t touch it with yours (delete as appropriate)
20% an M5 is broadly similar to/a world apart from a 535d so it’s hilariously overpriced/sensibly positioned in the market
20% my real or imaginary trade offs are better than yours
10% I didn't/wouldn't enjoy driving these cars
10% you’ve made some inexplicably poor life choices
40% an F40 looks like a kit car and who cares/I wouldn’t touch it with yours (delete as appropriate)
20% an M5 is broadly similar to/a world apart from a 535d so it’s hilariously overpriced/sensibly positioned in the market
20% my real or imaginary trade offs are better than yours
10% I didn't/wouldn't enjoy driving these cars
10% you’ve made some inexplicably poor life choices
RobM77 said:
wonder if that's due to the increased mass of the car now it has the slightly heavier metric chassis and duratec engine? I don't know that, just a pondering...
Possibly but it was noticeably less well resolved. Where I could go hard in my car, I did need a confidence lift in the new one. May just be me though! ewenm said:
theboss said:
So how do you cope with the prospect of, say, driving across France or Germany with a passenger or two and some luggage, in comfort and at a fair pace? Would you not agree that something like a large, powerful saloon would be 9 or 10/10 in that scenario? What would be better for the job? What if you didn't need to transport the passengers or luggage - would you happily embark on an 800 mile journey in an uncompromised Caterham?
I've done those sort of journeys in a Caterham, sometimes with the OH, sometimes alone. Always an adventure, picking non-motorway routes, exploring new places, turning an A-B journey into A-C-D-E-F-G-H-B.No doubt the saloon would be more comfortable, faster A-B and less tiring. I like having adventures though
2 cars for me.
Fiat Coupe 16v Turbo, I had one as I had had to sell the Westfield due to no garage and wanted something that would be fun to drive. Felt completely uninvolved at speeds that didn't attract adverse attention from the police and my driving became terrible because of that lack. My theory is that the current lack of driver involvement at everyday speeds is the cause of the decline in driving standards, if every car was as involving to drive as a classic Mini at normal speeds then things would improve.
Mazda MX5, we tested one prior to purchase, ye gods it felt slow. Ended up buying a 659cc Suzuki Cappuccino instead that felt so much faster (and was a blast to drive as well).
Never really been interested in BMW M cars for the above lack of involvement.
Fiat Coupe 16v Turbo, I had one as I had had to sell the Westfield due to no garage and wanted something that would be fun to drive. Felt completely uninvolved at speeds that didn't attract adverse attention from the police and my driving became terrible because of that lack. My theory is that the current lack of driver involvement at everyday speeds is the cause of the decline in driving standards, if every car was as involving to drive as a classic Mini at normal speeds then things would improve.
Mazda MX5, we tested one prior to purchase, ye gods it felt slow. Ended up buying a 659cc Suzuki Cappuccino instead that felt so much faster (and was a blast to drive as well).
Never really been interested in BMW M cars for the above lack of involvement.
Not so much a car I don't get, as an attitude from drivers.
I often hear petrolheads saying "I want light weight, superb handling, huge amounts of communication and feedback from the chassis and the tyres, I want immense performance and a light, revvy N/A engine", but then they won't ride a motorbike! How daft. Motorbikes are the ideal toy for enjoying the roads, because they're incredibly fast (even a commuter bike will rarely meet anything faster on the roads, unless it's another bike), incredibly fun and very useful and practical for day to day use too.
Not to mention the price. For a couple of grand, you can have 'supercar' levels of performance. Or for £100,000, you could get a car with litre bike levels of performance (or a fast 600cc). And nowhere will you get closer to racing technology for less.
But then you get the usual excuses: "I'd kill myself on a bike" or "my wife won't let me".
I often hear petrolheads saying "I want light weight, superb handling, huge amounts of communication and feedback from the chassis and the tyres, I want immense performance and a light, revvy N/A engine", but then they won't ride a motorbike! How daft. Motorbikes are the ideal toy for enjoying the roads, because they're incredibly fast (even a commuter bike will rarely meet anything faster on the roads, unless it's another bike), incredibly fun and very useful and practical for day to day use too.
Not to mention the price. For a couple of grand, you can have 'supercar' levels of performance. Or for £100,000, you could get a car with litre bike levels of performance (or a fast 600cc). And nowhere will you get closer to racing technology for less.
But then you get the usual excuses: "I'd kill myself on a bike" or "my wife won't let me".
Baryonyx said:
Not so much a car I don't get, as an attitude from drivers.
I often hear petrolheads saying "I want light weight, superb handling, huge amounts of communication and feedback from the chassis and the tyres, I want immense performance and a light, revvy N/A engine",
Or even then go on about the BMW M3, latest version at least 1580kg! (per Wiki)I often hear petrolheads saying "I want light weight, superb handling, huge amounts of communication and feedback from the chassis and the tyres, I want immense performance and a light, revvy N/A engine",
Baryonyx said:
Not so much a car I don't get, as an attitude from drivers.
I often hear petrolheads saying "I want light weight, superb handling, huge amounts of communication and feedback from the chassis and the tyres, I want immense performance and a light, revvy N/A engine", but then they won't ride a motorbike! How daft. Motorbikes are the ideal toy for enjoying the roads, because they're incredibly fast (even a commuter bike will rarely meet anything faster on the roads, unless it's another bike), incredibly fun and very useful and practical for day to day use too.
Not to mention the price. For a couple of grand, you can have 'supercar' levels of performance. Or for £100,000, you could get a car with litre bike levels of performance (or a fast 600cc). And nowhere will you get closer to racing technology for less.
But then you get the usual excuses: "I'd kill myself on a bike" or "my wife won't let me".
I agree with your analysis completely, about the virtues of bikes in all those categories, but the risk side is not an excuse, its a cold assessment based on the facts. If the roads were much emptier I would have had a bike years ago. But they aren't, and I am pretty risk averse when it comes to risks I can't personally control. I am happy enough flying small light aeroplanes (broadly similar death / serious injury rate to riding a motorbike per hour of activity) because almost all the risk of doing so is down to my personal skills and decisions. I can manage those risks directly with training and currency and the attitudes I take into the cockpit. So it's something I can control. On a bike I am much more at the mercy of other people, and I trust my own abilities and attitudes much more than I trust other people's.I often hear petrolheads saying "I want light weight, superb handling, huge amounts of communication and feedback from the chassis and the tyres, I want immense performance and a light, revvy N/A engine", but then they won't ride a motorbike! How daft. Motorbikes are the ideal toy for enjoying the roads, because they're incredibly fast (even a commuter bike will rarely meet anything faster on the roads, unless it's another bike), incredibly fun and very useful and practical for day to day use too.
Not to mention the price. For a couple of grand, you can have 'supercar' levels of performance. Or for £100,000, you could get a car with litre bike levels of performance (or a fast 600cc). And nowhere will you get closer to racing technology for less.
But then you get the usual excuses: "I'd kill myself on a bike" or "my wife won't let me".
theboss said:
Well, I have to admire the hardcore enthusiasm of yourself and SidewaysSi if you really do or would drive a Caterham over distances like that!
My longest day to date is Chamonix to Bath, without any autoroute/motorway until Reims. 745 miles that day 
Don't get me wrong, I see the appeal of doing it fast and in comfort, but equally the adventure of plotting a route through a country rather than zooming past on the autoroute appeals to me too.Lowtimer said:
Baryonyx said:
Not so much a car I don't get, as an attitude from drivers.
I often hear petrolheads saying "I want light weight, superb handling, huge amounts of communication and feedback from the chassis and the tyres, I want immense performance and a light, revvy N/A engine", but then they won't ride a motorbike! How daft. Motorbikes are the ideal toy for enjoying the roads, because they're incredibly fast (even a commuter bike will rarely meet anything faster on the roads, unless it's another bike), incredibly fun and very useful and practical for day to day use too.
Not to mention the price. For a couple of grand, you can have 'supercar' levels of performance. Or for £100,000, you could get a car with litre bike levels of performance (or a fast 600cc). And nowhere will you get closer to racing technology for less.
But then you get the usual excuses: "I'd kill myself on a bike" or "my wife won't let me".
I agree with your analysis completely, about the virtues of bikes in all those categories, but the risk side is not an excuse, its a cold assessment based on the facts. If the roads were much emptier I would have had a bike years ago. But they aren't, and I am pretty risk averse when it comes to risks I can't personally control. I am happy enough flying small light aeroplanes (broadly similar death / serious injury rate to riding a motorbike per hour of activity) because almost all the risk of doing so is down to my personal skills and decisions. I can manage those risks directly with training and currency and the attitudes I take into the cockpit. So it's something I can control. On a bike I am much more at the mercy of other people, and I trust my own abilities and attitudes much more than I trust other people's.I often hear petrolheads saying "I want light weight, superb handling, huge amounts of communication and feedback from the chassis and the tyres, I want immense performance and a light, revvy N/A engine", but then they won't ride a motorbike! How daft. Motorbikes are the ideal toy for enjoying the roads, because they're incredibly fast (even a commuter bike will rarely meet anything faster on the roads, unless it's another bike), incredibly fun and very useful and practical for day to day use too.
Not to mention the price. For a couple of grand, you can have 'supercar' levels of performance. Or for £100,000, you could get a car with litre bike levels of performance (or a fast 600cc). And nowhere will you get closer to racing technology for less.
But then you get the usual excuses: "I'd kill myself on a bike" or "my wife won't let me".
Being able to assess risk is a perfectly rational skill. I too would have a bike if more people knew the Highway Code and there were half the number of cars on the road. In fact there are a bunch of things I'd probably do if risk wasn't a factor - everyone makes balanced decisions on that with everything they do.Bikes are also just a very different thing to cars and they appeal on different levels; I don't view them as an alternative to cars and if I bought a bike I wouldn't sell my Lotus, just like I wouldn't sell my Lotus if I bought a plane! Bikes are great for cheap road-legal straight line thrills (which ironically are mostly illegal...) and the feeling of banking around corners. However, if you want to drift around corners on trackdays on the very limit of adhesion all day in relative safety then you're far better off with a car, or if you want to lap a race track quickly then you're also far better off with a car (the £100k thing simply isn't true - £15k will buy you a track car that will destroy anything this side of a Moto GP bike around a circuit - the outright lap record at Cadwell for example is held by a Jedi worth about £15k and no bike has ever gone faster there. £100k cars are for fat men to show off to younger women in).
Suggesting a bike as an alternative to a car, not as a complementary toy, is like suggesting a jet ski or a glider as an alternative to a car - both are activities many petrolheads enjoy, but they don't replace each other, they just complement.
Yes, risk is not an irrational thing to consider - you're at about 40 times the risk of being killed and about 70 times the risk of being killed or seriously injured. If you don't care, or you think it's worth it, or you're simply in denial about the risks, fair enough, but not everyone makes the same calculation.
Naturally someone who does take a different view of personal risk is entitled to do so, in an informed way, of course.
I think if I had no dependants, and could guarantee that any serious accident would result in a clean death rather than serious injury / disability I might well consider a lot of activities differently. Skydiving, for one.
I think if I had no dependants, and could guarantee that any serious accident would result in a clean death rather than serious injury / disability I might well consider a lot of activities differently. Skydiving, for one.
My longest day in a Seven was 550 miles, the last 300 on single carriageway . It was wonderful and although no aches and pains I was burnt to a crisp,tired out and incapable of normal speech for a few minutes after I stopped . Wonderful day. But there is a big difference in experience between driving (lots of bends, tunes on the gearbox) and travelling - wafting at high speed half way across Europe. Give me any quiet quick car for that with a decent range and I'd love it . But an open car in mountainous country is wonderful- you hear the exhaust ricochet from rock faces , you smell everything (wild flowers, gorse , pine , the guy smoking in the car 100yards in front and cow muck ) and you feel part of the environment rather than watching the scenery spool by with your own soundtrack . Bonus- kids from 9-90 wave at you and everybody wants to talk to you.
Baryonyx said:
But then you get the usual excuses: "I'd kill myself on a bike" or "my wife won't let me".
The former probably has some basis in fact though. The risk of dying on a motorbike is considerably higher than in a car. Motorbikes are by far the most dangerous form or road transport.The latter I can relate too.
Lowtimer said:
Naturally someone who does take a different view of personal risk is entitled to do so, in an informed way, of course.
I think if I had no dependants, and could guarantee that any serious accident would result in a clean death rather than serious injury / disability I might well consider a lot of activities differently. Skydiving, for one.
Skydiving isn't actually that risky. I think if I had no dependants, and could guarantee that any serious accident would result in a clean death rather than serious injury / disability I might well consider a lot of activities differently. Skydiving, for one.
The thing about skydiving as well is that more experienced skydivers are a greater risk as accidents tend to occur when experienced people push the envelope too far.
Lowtimer said:
I agree with your analysis completely, about the virtues of bikes in all those categories, but the risk side is not an excuse, its a cold assessment based on the facts. If the roads were much emptier I would have had a bike years ago. But they aren't, and I am pretty risk averse when it comes to risks I can't personally control. I am happy enough flying small light aeroplanes (broadly similar death / serious injury rate to riding a motorbike per hour of activity) because almost all the risk of doing so is down to my personal skills and decisions. I can manage those risks directly with training and currency and the attitudes I take into the cockpit. So it's something I can control. On a bike I am much more at the mercy of other people, and I trust my own abilities and attitudes much more than I trust other people's.
We think we are safer when we convince ourselves that we are in control, but I suspect that feeling of control is frequently a dillusion.I think that a lot of bikers are killed because they had too much faith in their own abilites. I've heard similar arguments from mountain bikers as to why they wouldn't ride on the roads, yet I don't know of any road cyclists who have had to be air lifted to Hospital. Alost all of the mountain bikers I know have had injuries from serious cuts to broken bones and the air ambulance has been required more than once in the last two years in my local area. It seems that those people who feel most on control seem to like taking big risks.
RobM77 said:
Lowtimer said:
Baryonyx said:
Not so much a car I don't get, as an attitude from drivers.
I often hear petrolheads saying "I want light weight, superb handling, huge amounts of communication and feedback from the chassis and the tyres, I want immense performance and a light, revvy N/A engine", but then they won't ride a motorbike! How daft. Motorbikes are the ideal toy for enjoying the roads, because they're incredibly fast (even a commuter bike will rarely meet anything faster on the roads, unless it's another bike), incredibly fun and very useful and practical for day to day use too.
Not to mention the price. For a couple of grand, you can have 'supercar' levels of performance. Or for £100,000, you could get a car with litre bike levels of performance (or a fast 600cc). And nowhere will you get closer to racing technology for less.
But then you get the usual excuses: "I'd kill myself on a bike" or "my wife won't let me".
I agree with your analysis completely, about the virtues of bikes in all those categories, but the risk side is not an excuse, its a cold assessment based on the facts. If the roads were much emptier I would have had a bike years ago. But they aren't, and I am pretty risk averse when it comes to risks I can't personally control. I am happy enough flying small light aeroplanes (broadly similar death / serious injury rate to riding a motorbike per hour of activity) because almost all the risk of doing so is down to my personal skills and decisions. I can manage those risks directly with training and currency and the attitudes I take into the cockpit. So it's something I can control. On a bike I am much more at the mercy of other people, and I trust my own abilities and attitudes much more than I trust other people's.I often hear petrolheads saying "I want light weight, superb handling, huge amounts of communication and feedback from the chassis and the tyres, I want immense performance and a light, revvy N/A engine", but then they won't ride a motorbike! How daft. Motorbikes are the ideal toy for enjoying the roads, because they're incredibly fast (even a commuter bike will rarely meet anything faster on the roads, unless it's another bike), incredibly fun and very useful and practical for day to day use too.
Not to mention the price. For a couple of grand, you can have 'supercar' levels of performance. Or for £100,000, you could get a car with litre bike levels of performance (or a fast 600cc). And nowhere will you get closer to racing technology for less.
But then you get the usual excuses: "I'd kill myself on a bike" or "my wife won't let me".
Being able to assess risk is a perfectly rational skill. I too would have a bike if more people knew the Highway Code and there were half the number of cars on the road. In fact there are a bunch of things I'd probably do if risk wasn't a factor - everyone makes balanced decisions on that with everything they do.Bikes are also just a very different thing to cars and they appeal on different levels; I don't view them as an alternative to cars and if I bought a bike I wouldn't sell my Lotus, just like I wouldn't sell my Lotus if I bought a plane! Bikes are great for cheap road-legal straight line thrills (which ironically are mostly illegal...) and the feeling of banking around corners. However, if you want to drift around corners on trackdays on the very limit of adhesion all day in relative safety then you're far better off with a car, or if you want to lap a race track quickly then you're also far better off with a car (the £100k thing simply isn't true - £15k will buy you a track car that will destroy anything this side of a Moto GP bike around a circuit - the outright lap record at Cadwell for example is held by a Jedi worth about £15k and no bike has ever gone faster there. £100k cars are for fat men to show off to younger women in).
Suggesting a bike as an alternative to a car, not as a complementary toy, is like suggesting a jet ski or a glider as an alternative to a car - both are activities many petrolheads enjoy, but they don't replace each other, they just complement.
coppice said:
My longest day in a Seven was 550 miles
...
there is a big difference in experience between driving (lots of bends, tunes on the gearbox) and travelling - wafting at high speed half way across Europe. Give me any quiet quick car for that with a decent range and I'd love it . But an open car in mountainous country is wonderful- you hear the exhaust ricochet from rock faces , you smell everything (wild flowers, gorse , pine , the guy smoking in the car 100yards in front and cow muck ) and you feel part of the environment rather than watching the scenery spool by with your own soundtrack . Bonus- kids from 9-90 wave at you and everybody wants to talk to you.
+1 to that - perfectly describes the experience of small, light, open cars....
there is a big difference in experience between driving (lots of bends, tunes on the gearbox) and travelling - wafting at high speed half way across Europe. Give me any quiet quick car for that with a decent range and I'd love it . But an open car in mountainous country is wonderful- you hear the exhaust ricochet from rock faces , you smell everything (wild flowers, gorse , pine , the guy smoking in the car 100yards in front and cow muck ) and you feel part of the environment rather than watching the scenery spool by with your own soundtrack . Bonus- kids from 9-90 wave at you and everybody wants to talk to you.
Huff said:
coppice said:
My longest day in a Seven was 550 miles
...
there is a big difference in experience between driving (lots of bends, tunes on the gearbox) and travelling - wafting at high speed half way across Europe. Give me any quiet quick car for that with a decent range and I'd love it . But an open car in mountainous country is wonderful- you hear the exhaust ricochet from rock faces , you smell everything (wild flowers, gorse , pine , the guy smoking in the car 100yards in front and cow muck ) and you feel part of the environment rather than watching the scenery spool by with your own soundtrack . Bonus- kids from 9-90 wave at you and everybody wants to talk to you.
+1 to that - perfectly describes the experience of small, light, open cars....
there is a big difference in experience between driving (lots of bends, tunes on the gearbox) and travelling - wafting at high speed half way across Europe. Give me any quiet quick car for that with a decent range and I'd love it . But an open car in mountainous country is wonderful- you hear the exhaust ricochet from rock faces , you smell everything (wild flowers, gorse , pine , the guy smoking in the car 100yards in front and cow muck ) and you feel part of the environment rather than watching the scenery spool by with your own soundtrack . Bonus- kids from 9-90 wave at you and everybody wants to talk to you.
[quote=RobM77]
:if you want to lap a race track quickly then you're also far better off with a car (the £100k thing simply isn't true - £15k will buy you a track car that will destroy anything this side of a Moto GP bike around a circuit - the outright lap record at Cadwell for example is held by a Jedi worth about £15k and no bike has ever gone faster there. ]
Agreed; and no road car will go quicker than that either ; (as I have said elsewhere) save yourself all but 15-20k from a P1 or 918 budget and go quicker in a single seater (or a Kart). The previous lap record was held by a 160bhp F3 car for decades at Cadwell.
:if you want to lap a race track quickly then you're also far better off with a car (the £100k thing simply isn't true - £15k will buy you a track car that will destroy anything this side of a Moto GP bike around a circuit - the outright lap record at Cadwell for example is held by a Jedi worth about £15k and no bike has ever gone faster there. ]
Agreed; and no road car will go quicker than that either ; (as I have said elsewhere) save yourself all but 15-20k from a P1 or 918 budget and go quicker in a single seater (or a Kart). The previous lap record was held by a 160bhp F3 car for decades at Cadwell.
coppice said:
RobM77 said:
:if you want to lap a race track quickly then you're also far better off with a car (the £100k thing simply isn't true - £15k will buy you a track car that will destroy anything this side of a Moto GP bike around a circuit - the outright lap record at Cadwell for example is held by a Jedi worth about £15k and no bike has ever gone faster there. ]
Agreed; and no road car will go quicker than that either ; (as I have said elsewhere) save yourself all but 15-20k from a P1 or 918 budget and go quicker in a single seater (or a Kart). The previous lap record was held by a 160bhp F3 car for decades at Cadwell.
Agreed; and no road car will go quicker than that either ; (as I have said elsewhere) save yourself all but 15-20k from a P1 or 918 budget and go quicker in a single seater (or a Kart). The previous lap record was held by a 160bhp F3 car for decades at Cadwell.
For me that's a no-brainer given how unleashing any more than a fraction of the performance of a quick car or bike on the public road is deeply illegal. Why not have a road car half as fast plus a racing car twice as fast and buy a seaside home with the change?Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff