RE: Williams vs 182 Trophy vs 200 Cup vs 200 Turbo

RE: Williams vs 182 Trophy vs 200 Cup vs 200 Turbo

Tuesday 14th April 2015

Williams vs 182 Trophy vs 200 Cup vs 200 Turbo

Rare chance to drive the entire hot Clio bloodline back to back ... but which is best?



Opportunities to drive examples of classic models from manufacturer historic fleets are always a treat. But an entire lineage? That’s something special.

“Timewarp” condition is a phrase you’ll often hear optimistically applied to cars in the classifieds but actually applies here. Take this Clio Williams for example – it wasn’t road registered until 2006, has fewer than 3,000 miles on it and is still on its original tyres. More on that last point in due course…

Driving that isolation would be pretty cool. Driving it back to back with the #1 182 Trophy, a late-model 200 Cup and the current 200 Turbo around Brands Hatch? Heaven!

We like a hot Clio at PH Towers. Six happy months in a 197 Cup long termer inspired me to buy a 172 Cup, subsequently traded in for … a kettle. PHTV co-presenter James had a 172 Cup and also a Trophy, contributor and custodian of the PH Fleet 200 Turbo Danny ran a 182 with the Cup pack, snapper Tom Begley has just bought a perfectly acceptable 172 for just £800 and, off the back of this shoot, PH man Ben Lowden has found a 182 Trophy he’ll be picking up at the end of the week.

As we await the fruits of Renaultsport’s tweaking of the 200 Turbo and its evolution into the 220 Trophy and because Renault UK had brought them all to Brands for one of its subsidised Renaultsport track days we asked for the keys. Amazingly they handed them over.


Clio Williams 1 (1993)
We’ll be giving this Williams the full PH Heroes treatment very shortly so I won’t steal too much of that thunder. But of the four cars here this is the only generation of hot Clio I’ve not driven before. And, given its provenance, the most valuable by far. “Be careful,” says the PR man handing over the keys, neglecting to mention a key fact that would have informed exactly how careful I should be.

Big engine, small car, large grin
Big engine, small car, large grin
Flashes of blue liven up the grey plastic/velour inside but it very much feels its 20-odd years. Outside it’s aged better but in size and delicacy very clearly from a different age.

I trickle out of the Brands pitlane at a very deferential pace, into Paddock and – whoah! – there we are on three wheels already! Lordy. The next few laps are spent nervously getting to know a priceless car in the midst of a bustling track day. Thoughts? The engine pulls hard and has a pleasingly aggressive note higher in the rev range, the steering feels light at speed and the front end a little vague.

Tentatively I trail the brakes a little into Clearways and immediately the nose tugs towards the kerb. Paddock looms large. I brake very early and make sure I am well away from the centre pedal before pitching it in. Again that teetering sense of the inside wheel lifting. Into Druids the long-throw gearshift demands time but the Williams pivots around its length and tucks in nicely. I’m starting to enjoy myself. Boldly I trail the brakes again into Graham Hill. There’s a squeak of protest from the outside rear and I’m immediately facing the opposite direction. Ah. Shame-faced I scuttle back to the pits. “How old are those tyres?” I ask as I hand the keys back, cheeks burning with embarrassment. “Oh, they’re original to the car!”


Clio 182 Trophy (2005)
The step from Williams to 172/182 isn’t a huge one. Sure, the Trophy feels a little more substantial inside (it’s all relative) but the dash and shoulder line feel low, the glasshouse is large and you have that same sense of being perched up high on relatively pliant suspension. Good on a B-road, slightly precarious as you peel into Paddock.

Trophy takes the prize in many eyes
Trophy takes the prize in many eyes
Like the Williams the steering is light and not especially feelsome. Again, the five-speed gearbox feels rangey in throw and not especially welcoming of fast shifts. There’s that same sense of muscularity though; a 2.0-litre engine in a supermini weighing not much over a tonne is a healthy ratio of ccs to kgs and, like all Clio 2s, the Trophy feels excitingly over-engined. Peak torque of 147lb ft doesn’t come in until over 5,000rpm but it always feels strong, with instant pick-up from any gear and any rpm. Pile on the latter and it reveals a more aggressive top-end too. Lovely!

Like the Williams the steering mechanism up front is merely one tool for adjusting the direction of travel. It’s all on the throttle and brakes in these cars, my old 172 having a sense of built-in instability like a modern jet fighter. Great once you learned how to exploit it, bloody terrifying if you weren’t on top of it. The Trophy isn’t quite as hyperactive and pointy as that and has ABS and ESP too. The chassis settings are pretty much as per the Cup-spec 182, albeit with those trick Sachs dampers up front, 10mm less ride height and hydraulic bump stops – also seen on the current 200 Turbo.

It’s a magic combination of the raw, rough-edged charm of the Williams with a degree more sophistication and predictability. As-is it’d be a lovely thing to own, especially as a road car. Want a more track-ready one? Buy a Shed money 172 or 182, strip it, cage it, tweak it and let rip. In either case the second-gen Clio is a lovely intersection between traditional simplicity and rawness and modern civility and solidity.


Clio 200 Cup (2009)
I know the Clio 3 Renaultsport well, having covered 10,000 miles in a 197 Cup, a decent proportion of those on track. And unlike the Williams and 182 it’s a car that really feels built for that kind of use.

Brembos, offset struts - it's built for speed
Brembos, offset struts - it's built for speed
And if the step from Williams to 172/182 wasn’t that huge from 182 to 197/200 it’s massive. Core attributes remain – that sense of throttle adjustability being one of them. But this is a much, much more serious car. And more compromised on the road; this 200 Cup has 15 per cent stiffer dampers than my old 197 and that wasn’t exactly cushy. Nearly a third stiffer in springing than the ‘full fat’ 200 and with a faster steering rack too it’s a proper piece of kit. Despite not being a limited edition it’s the rarest here too, with just 429 pure Cups sold against 2,099 regular 200s.  

The PerfoHub offset front struts, Brembo brakes and significantly more muscular bodywork really stand out. And mean the car is ready and willing to soak up serious track abuse straight out of the box, as proven by my old 197. It’s a much burlier car than the Clio 2 – as much as 150kg heavier -  and though the engine is a related F4R 2.0-litre it’s much more revvy and peaky than in the 182.

Paired with a close-ratio six-speed gearbox it means I’m working the higher ends of the rev range to make progress but the shifts are faster, the pedals crisper and the front end much, much more positive and informative.

I learned early on with my 197 that the ESP is quietly quite intrusive on these cars; turn it off and progress is much smoother and more predictable. Limits are so much higher that properly unsticking it takes serious provocation but it also remains biddable and playful. It’s one of those cars where the harder you push it the better it gets, rewarding skill and confidence with proper pace. Hard. Core.


Clio 200 Turbo (2014)
We’ve written a lot about this car on PH and felt moved to defend it hard against some pretty intense criticism. In this company it feels, initially at least, very ordinary. Especially compared with its immediate predecessor. The turbo and dual-clutch gearbox you can accept as ‘progress’ but losing stuff like the offset struts, Brembos and Recaros feels like a real backward step in this environment.

It's a very different car, but is it a worse one?
It's a very different car, but is it a worse one?
The resolutely linear power delivery, low redline and flat monotone noise do nothing to help its case against the fizzy, muscular two litres in the other cars. Occasionally sluggish paddle shifts are, to many, the final nail in the coffin. But as I chase Danny in the Alien Green 200 it’s interesting to note he’s not making any ground on me whatsoever. I’ve got 177lb ft against his 159lb ft and it’s all there from 1,750rpm rather than the mid fives, which helps. But I can also left-foot brake deep into the corners and downshift all the while, offsetting the fact the low redline means I can’t do that on the approach. You don’t feel the need for a diff necessarily but, gawd, it’d have been nice if the budget had allowed for the PerfoHub struts to reduce the torque’s influence on the front wheels. And the boggo brakes go off where the Clio 3’s Brembos remain resolute.

But it’s a hell of a lot more fun than many credit, that sense of adjustability concealed closer to the edge of the performance envelope but there if you really grab it by the scruff of the neck and fling it about. There’s hope…


Verdict
So as a Renaultsport fanboy with the keys to all four cars in my hand which would I drive away in? Not the Williams. Not this one anyway. It’s lovely but, with this history, too lovely. There’s clearly a very potent little car there and one that could teach you a hell of a lot about your driving. But on two-decade old Pirelli P4000s I’m not about to push my luck.

Weirdly I’m a little unmoved by the Trophy too. Lovely as it is, it feels a little like the Williams with the appealing rough edges removed. If we’d been on the road rather than the track I’d have probably been more excited but on a circuit the 200 Cup is the undisputed boss. I know that as an ownership proposition the 200 Turbo would be a much more pleasant place to spend time; my old 197 was high 20s thirsty and a brutal daily driver.

The new one is actually just as fast and a lot more civilised but I’d live with the uncompromising nature of a 197 or 200. It’s a truly special car to push hard, a high point in the history of the hot hatch we’re unlikely ever to see the like of again. Indeed, if the lineage had missed it out and gone straight from 182 to 200 Turbo it’d almost make more sense. In every sense the Clio 3 is a stand-out car. 197 Cup with Recaros like my old long-termer please.


RENAULT CLIO WILLIAMS 1
Engine: 1,998cc 4-cyl
Transmission: 5-speed manual, front-wheel drive
Power (hp): 150@6,100rpm
Torque (lb ft): 129@4,500rpm
0-62mph: 7.7sec
Top speed: 134mph
Weight: 990kg
On sale: 1993-1995
Price new: £13,275
Price now: c. £5,000 upwards - very upwards in the case of this car

CLIO RENAULTSPORT 182 TROPHY
Engine:
1,998cc 4-cyl
Transmission: 5-speed manual, front-wheel drive
Power (hp): 182@6,100rpm
Torque (lb ft): 147@5,250rpm
0-62mph: 7.1sec
Top speed: 139mph
Weight: 1,090kg (standard 182)
On sale: 2005
Price new: £15,500
Price now: c. £4,000 upwards

CLIO RENAULTSPORT 200 CUP
Engine:
1,998cc 4-cyl
Transmission: 6-speed manual, front-wheel drive
Power (hp): 200@7,100rpm
Torque (lb ft): 159@5,400rpm
0-62mph: 6.9sec
Top speed: 141mph
Weight: 1,204kg (non-Cup 1,240kg
On sale: 2009-2012
Price new: £16,930 (200 Cup)
Price now: c. £8,000-£12,000

CLIO RENAULTSPORT 200 TURBO EDC
Engine:
1,618cc 4-cyl turbo
Transmission: 6-speed dual-clutch auto, front-wheel drive
Power (hp): 200@6,000rpm
Torque (lb ft): 177@1,750rpm
0-62mph: 6.7sec
Top speed: 143mph
Weight: 1,204kg
On sale: 2013 - on
Price new: £18,995
Price now: c. £15,000 upwards

 













   
   
   
   

Photos: Chris Teagles, Ben Lowden and Steve Townsend/Skyviz

Author
Discussion

gregf40

Original Poster:

1,114 posts

115 months

Tuesday 14th April 2015
quotequote all
My 197 F1 is as much fun to drive 90% of the time as my F40 is. I absolutely love it.

is1

188 posts

147 months

Tuesday 14th April 2015
quotequote all
I was a tad disappointed by the 182 Trophy. My subsequent Integra DC2 is a much better drivers car.
The pick of the 1*2s is the 172 Cup, reflected now by their rising asking prices.

Martin_Hx

3,951 posts

197 months

Tuesday 14th April 2015
quotequote all
Bugger, posted this in the other thread which i think may get deleted! So here goes again hehe

I've never driven a Clio and probably never will but that 200 cup N/A would be the one i would choose, its the nearest to my civic with a fun responsive driving style, just not as fast or reliable wink

But as said above, these top end cars with N/A + Manual have to go up in value as they are all slowly dying! They are brilliant cars to drive at the end of the day

David87

6,648 posts

211 months

Tuesday 14th April 2015
quotequote all
Have to disagree here. The 182 Trophy is the high water mark for me. When I'm too old and mad to drive, I'm sure I'll still remember mine just as fondly as I do now. cloud9biggrin

WCZ

10,492 posts

193 months

Tuesday 14th April 2015
quotequote all
driven them all, 182 trophy for me every time.

Tickle

4,880 posts

203 months

Tuesday 14th April 2015
quotequote all
I absolutely loved my Trophy and 200 Cup, brilliant cars.

Each shone on different roads, for me the 200 Cup was the better drivers car though, just that extra bit focused and tight. The Trophy was easier to live with for general daily duties due to the SACHS being less firm and a better turning circle.

SarGara

365 posts

175 months

Tuesday 14th April 2015
quotequote all
Very lucky to find yourself in an opertunity to test them all back to back like that, I doubt many can say the same. I've been fortunate enough to own a 172, a 200 Cup (proper cup) and a 182 Trophy and I share your views on the Clio3 being my favorite of the bunch.

10b0b

35 posts

111 months

Tuesday 14th April 2015
quotequote all
Adored my 200, sadly sold due to work commitments. Never a quick car in a straight line, most half decent sport diesels would leave it, but the point to point ability was absolutely astonishing. A certain route home from work that i was very failiar with resulted in a several bemused drivers in substantially more expensive/powerful cars staring at me blankly at the lights at the end (or doing that ignorant thing when they wont look at you/give a nod/thumbs up). biggrin

Slightly miffed to read they were sold in a very small number too! frown

And i did see mine on the PH classifieds once frown

scarecrow

2,950 posts

234 months

Tuesday 14th April 2015
quotequote all
Shame there wasn't modern rubber on the Williams.
Would love to see how it compares with modern stuff.

I drove one in the nineties and it may be rose tinted specs but I thought it was brilliant with fantastic grip and traction.

TurboHatchback

4,151 posts

152 months

Tuesday 14th April 2015
quotequote all
David87 said:
Have to disagree here. The 182 Trophy is the high water mark for me. When I'm too old and mad to drive, I'm sure I'll still remember mine just as fondly as I do now. cloud9biggrin
yes

I had a full fat 182 with cup packs rather than a trophy but it was simply excellent. The later Clios are just too fat, heavy and ugly for my tastes. I still think I probably shouldn't have sold mine weeping.

Buff Mchugelarge

3,316 posts

149 months

Tuesday 14th April 2015
quotequote all
I still miss my 197FF such a great car.
Never had any problems, always made me grin and did sensible family thing well too.
The best car I've had to date and would take some beating too!

J8 SVG

1,468 posts

129 months

Tuesday 14th April 2015
quotequote all
Only earlier today my sister asked me what I was getting next.. 'THE CLIO STAYS' I told her. 197 with cup pack and Recaros and it makes me smile every time I drive it

Might have to get another car to do the motorway miles though.. getting close to 60k and things are starting to sound a little French in the cabin..

melvster

6,841 posts

184 months

Tuesday 14th April 2015
quotequote all
Still loving my 197 Cup 12 months on. I keep thinking whether to sell it or not but its just so good to drive on a twsity road.
In the reeds by Adam Melville, on Flickr
RS vs RS by Adam Melville, on Flickr

k-ink

9,070 posts

178 months

Tuesday 14th April 2015
quotequote all
These newer hatches may well be great but it is such a shame they are full sized family cars. The smaller the better when it comes to hot hatches, imho.

Feirny

2,500 posts

146 months

Tuesday 14th April 2015
quotequote all
182 Trophy for me, miss mine quite a lot! I'll own another at some point.

dom9

8,040 posts

208 months

Tuesday 14th April 2015
quotequote all
I picked up a near enough mint, 43k miles Williams 2 a couple of months back!

Absolutely lovely little thing, light, quick and nimble. Enjoy every minute out in it.

They won't make cars like that again!

Sadly, I picked up a 685 mile Clio V6 (Phase 1, 002 - first car ever sold) the other day so I'm not sure how much more love the Williams will receive (I also have a 172) and may put it up for sale frown

Was meant to be a keeper but two iconic Renault hatches with such low miles seems greedy and they need more road time!

Cracking cars, all of them!

LordHaveMurci

12,034 posts

168 months

Tuesday 14th April 2015
quotequote all
Love my 172 Cup, for me the Williams is too old now, the new ones leave me cold.

The 1*2's are the tipping point between old & new for me, especially the 172 Cup with no AC, ABS etc.

Good to hear they're slowly increasing in value, maybe I'll treat mine to a wash then!

L9 GTE

53 posts

154 months

Tuesday 14th April 2015
quotequote all
I had a 182 and an E46 M3 at the same time a few years back and shared the cars with my Dad who found himself unexpectedly carless for a couple of months. We used to fight over the keys to the Renault!

Its interesting that you have stated there is not much feel in the steering, I found it quite deliciously feelsome

matt1269

598 posts

173 months

Tuesday 14th April 2015
quotequote all
I prefer my current 200 (With cup chassis and recaro options) much more than the 172 cup I had. The 200 feels so much more at home on a track than the road though!

davyvee

295 posts

134 months

Tuesday 14th April 2015
quotequote all
Road - Trophy
Track - 200 cup

I drive on the road mostly.