The benefits of ABS
Discussion
Had a bit of a 'Oh f
k' moment whilst out for a Sunday drive in my old Saab.
In the inside lane on a 3 lane dual carriageway that curves round to the right. There was a filter lane on the inside for turning off into a side road, but I was going straight on and following the curve of the road. With no warning or indicators, a car in the outside lane crossed two lanes of traffic, tyres squealing, to take the turn off. I was doing iro 50mph at the time, he must have been going slightly faster.
Fortunately, I'd watched him coming up behind in the mirror and swerve around me and the car in the middle lane without indicating, so had the brake covered. This meant I was able to stand on the anchors as soon as he commenced his move. A damp road and cold tyres meant I didn't have a lot of grip, and locked the wheels immediately. I modulated the brake pedal to regain control, but in the half second that I was sliding, the back end had stepped out and I was half way into the filter lane.
As it turns out, this was rather lucky, because the car in the middle lane had swerved towards me trying to avoid Mr Lunatic! The nutter clipped the edge of the drop kerb and disappeared down the side road.
I've never been totally convinced by ABS: The only time I've actually experienced ABS working has been on snow, when it's a bit annoying. I've never done an emergency stop in a car with ABS on a dry road.
In a manly, hairy-chested way, I always thought it was a bit soft. Something for people who are too lazy or useless to drive properly - a bit like parking sensors and automatic headlights.
I've now revised my opinion, but I'm wondering, has anybody else experienced a similar damascene conversion, or am I just an oddball?
k' moment whilst out for a Sunday drive in my old Saab.In the inside lane on a 3 lane dual carriageway that curves round to the right. There was a filter lane on the inside for turning off into a side road, but I was going straight on and following the curve of the road. With no warning or indicators, a car in the outside lane crossed two lanes of traffic, tyres squealing, to take the turn off. I was doing iro 50mph at the time, he must have been going slightly faster.
Fortunately, I'd watched him coming up behind in the mirror and swerve around me and the car in the middle lane without indicating, so had the brake covered. This meant I was able to stand on the anchors as soon as he commenced his move. A damp road and cold tyres meant I didn't have a lot of grip, and locked the wheels immediately. I modulated the brake pedal to regain control, but in the half second that I was sliding, the back end had stepped out and I was half way into the filter lane.
As it turns out, this was rather lucky, because the car in the middle lane had swerved towards me trying to avoid Mr Lunatic! The nutter clipped the edge of the drop kerb and disappeared down the side road.
I've never been totally convinced by ABS: The only time I've actually experienced ABS working has been on snow, when it's a bit annoying. I've never done an emergency stop in a car with ABS on a dry road.
In a manly, hairy-chested way, I always thought it was a bit soft. Something for people who are too lazy or useless to drive properly - a bit like parking sensors and automatic headlights.
I've now revised my opinion, but I'm wondering, has anybody else experienced a similar damascene conversion, or am I just an oddball?
I've raced for years and owned a number of cars without ABS, but it's the one driver aid that I like to have on a road car. It's one thing threshold braking down a straight and into a corner when you're completely alert and know the surface under you, but it's another thing entirely on a wet dark night when you're tired and the 'corner' is an unknown situation developing in front of you.
Older ABS systems could be beaten by a good driver, but modern ones are truly superb, and other than in extremis (e.g. LFB spin correction), all they do is replicate what a good driver would do, they don't interfere like DSC and TC can sometimes. The other thing is that whilst I may corner quickly every day as part of normal driving, which is why I hate DSC and TC, I never ever plan to brake hard, so they don't interfere with daily driving at all. As such I'm more than happy to hand over the job of brake modulation to the computer should I ever need it, leaving me free to avoid the accident!
The statistics behind insurance speak volumes too. I paid £800 to insure my Elise S2 111S (no ABS) when I bought it, and had a quote for the same age, value and performance but an S2 111R (with ABS) for £600!
Older ABS systems could be beaten by a good driver, but modern ones are truly superb, and other than in extremis (e.g. LFB spin correction), all they do is replicate what a good driver would do, they don't interfere like DSC and TC can sometimes. The other thing is that whilst I may corner quickly every day as part of normal driving, which is why I hate DSC and TC, I never ever plan to brake hard, so they don't interfere with daily driving at all. As such I'm more than happy to hand over the job of brake modulation to the computer should I ever need it, leaving me free to avoid the accident!
The statistics behind insurance speak volumes too. I paid £800 to insure my Elise S2 111S (no ABS) when I bought it, and had a quote for the same age, value and performance but an S2 111R (with ABS) for £600!
RobM77 said:
I've raced for years and owned a number of cars without ABS, but it's the one driver aid that I like to have on a road car. It's one thing threshold braking down a straight and into a corner when you're completely alert and know the surface under you, but it's another thing entirely on a wet dark night when you're tired and the 'corner' is an unknown situation developing in front of you.
Older ABS systems could be beaten by a good driver, but modern ones are truly superb, and other than in extremis (e.g. LFB spin correction), all they do is replicate what a good driver would do, they don't interfere like DSC and TC can sometimes. The other thing is that whilst I may corner quickly every day as part of normal driving, which is why I hate DSC and TC, I never ever plan to brake hard, so they don't interfere with daily driving at all. As such I'm more than happy to hand over the job of brake modulation to the computer should I ever need it, leaving me free to avoid the accident!
The statistics behind insurance speak volumes too. I paid £800 to insure my Elise S2 111S (no ABS) when I bought it, and had a quote for the same age, value and performance but an S2 111R (with ABS) for £600!
You sure it’s only the ABS inclusion that is causing that difference?Older ABS systems could be beaten by a good driver, but modern ones are truly superb, and other than in extremis (e.g. LFB spin correction), all they do is replicate what a good driver would do, they don't interfere like DSC and TC can sometimes. The other thing is that whilst I may corner quickly every day as part of normal driving, which is why I hate DSC and TC, I never ever plan to brake hard, so they don't interfere with daily driving at all. As such I'm more than happy to hand over the job of brake modulation to the computer should I ever need it, leaving me free to avoid the accident!
The statistics behind insurance speak volumes too. I paid £800 to insure my Elise S2 111S (no ABS) when I bought it, and had a quote for the same age, value and performance but an S2 111R (with ABS) for £600!
Mike22233 said:
RobM77 said:
I've raced for years and owned a number of cars without ABS, but it's the one driver aid that I like to have on a road car. It's one thing threshold braking down a straight and into a corner when you're completely alert and know the surface under you, but it's another thing entirely on a wet dark night when you're tired and the 'corner' is an unknown situation developing in front of you.
Older ABS systems could be beaten by a good driver, but modern ones are truly superb, and other than in extremis (e.g. LFB spin correction), all they do is replicate what a good driver would do, they don't interfere like DSC and TC can sometimes. The other thing is that whilst I may corner quickly every day as part of normal driving, which is why I hate DSC and TC, I never ever plan to brake hard, so they don't interfere with daily driving at all. As such I'm more than happy to hand over the job of brake modulation to the computer should I ever need it, leaving me free to avoid the accident!
The statistics behind insurance speak volumes too. I paid £800 to insure my Elise S2 111S (no ABS) when I bought it, and had a quote for the same age, value and performance but an S2 111R (with ABS) for £600!
You sure it’s only the ABS inclusion that is causing that difference?Older ABS systems could be beaten by a good driver, but modern ones are truly superb, and other than in extremis (e.g. LFB spin correction), all they do is replicate what a good driver would do, they don't interfere like DSC and TC can sometimes. The other thing is that whilst I may corner quickly every day as part of normal driving, which is why I hate DSC and TC, I never ever plan to brake hard, so they don't interfere with daily driving at all. As such I'm more than happy to hand over the job of brake modulation to the computer should I ever need it, leaving me free to avoid the accident!
The statistics behind insurance speak volumes too. I paid £800 to insure my Elise S2 111S (no ABS) when I bought it, and had a quote for the same age, value and performance but an S2 111R (with ABS) for £600!
It's one of those things that while a good driver might be able to outbrake abs the computer will do it consistently, night and day, it won't panic, get tired or maybe slightly impaired after a drink.
Even if I could beat ABS every single time in a test I'd still have it for the reason that you don't get to plan your emergencies.
Even if I could beat ABS every single time in a test I'd still have it for the reason that you don't get to plan your emergencies.
ABS has saved me twice.
Comming home one night from the cinema I was coming around a long bend in a 60limit theres a driveway half way round it and someone was reversing out slam the anchors on and swerve into the other lane luckily it was quiet a very wierd feeling abs at first I can see why some drivers stop braking when they feel it working.
The other time was down to a suicidal cyclist at night blowing a red light.
Comming home one night from the cinema I was coming around a long bend in a 60limit theres a driveway half way round it and someone was reversing out slam the anchors on and swerve into the other lane luckily it was quiet a very wierd feeling abs at first I can see why some drivers stop braking when they feel it working.
The other time was down to a suicidal cyclist at night blowing a red light.
RobM77 said:
Older ABS systems could be beaten by a good driver, but modern ones are truly superb…
Agreed. It’s nice to know, at least for my A3, that maximum braking can be achieved by standing on the pedal. However, the last time I had to do this in an emergency was about 15 years ago.
Gandahar said:
I think the fact that if a car offered for ABS to be turned off and it was a dry sunny day very few people would do so for "fun". A lot may turn off stability and traction systems though for "fun".
Dunno... I've heard of people disabling the ABS before. If memory serves, there was a story posted on GG recently about somebody who got into serious trouble for doing that after police inspected his car. I think it was an E36.I also think ABS is excellent and it is the only 'driver aid' I want on a road car. Traction control is utterly pointless (and occasionally dangerous) unless you are a plutonium footed incompetent and I am very suspicious of ESP although I acknowledge it can save some situations that I could not unaided.
That said, ABS is a right pain on older cars. The older systems aren't that great when they work, they constantly cause problems and are a right pain do diagnose with out OBD2 support. I was happy to find my old Landcruiser that has no aids at all, proper old school driving and nothing to go wrong!
That said, ABS is a right pain on older cars. The older systems aren't that great when they work, they constantly cause problems and are a right pain do diagnose with out OBD2 support. I was happy to find my old Landcruiser that has no aids at all, proper old school driving and nothing to go wrong!
I've been saved by abs once before. I picked a women up from a cocktail bar and was driving to hers (meeting her for the second time) I was on a wide flowing 40mph road, it had no tight curves for the 3miles I had been on it and lured me into what I now know was a false sense of security. I opened the car up to about 80 and saw a curve coming up, I got on the brakes... No problem. Then as I got closer I realised it was feking tight! I applied more and more brake until the abs kicked in, as I turned in at about 60 I was in full abs, and to my horror just as the tight corner ended there was a stop sign 
I had about 3 seconds of abs whilst turning before stopping in time.
Without the abs it would've been a messy save or some pavement contact.
I had about 3 seconds of abs whilst turning before stopping in time.
Without the abs it would've been a messy save or some pavement contact.
I have only felt ABS activate once, as I usually feed in the brakes to avoid lock-up and am not a fan of "stamp and release and stamp" as a way of maintaining control under braking. But I was grateful for it when it did!
I was driving along in town at 30mph and two kids ran out straight in front of my car(literally just a few metres) without looking. It was a major road with good sightlines for pedestrians and traffic all doing 30mph, so they must have simply not looked or somehow seen through my car. I didn't have time to do anything but a panicked stamp on the brakes - hard enough to lift myself out of the seat a little. I felt the tyres and brakes struggle to avoid locking up while retaining braking force (and the tyres made a quite unpleasant sound). I missed the kid at the back by a few inches (and stopped a few metres after where they crossed). I was probably still going at about 10-15mph when they crossed in front of me.
If I had been driving a car with worse tyres, if it had been raining, if I had been driving 5mph over the speed limit, and maybe if I hadn't had ABS, I would have hit that kid.
I was driving along in town at 30mph and two kids ran out straight in front of my car(literally just a few metres) without looking. It was a major road with good sightlines for pedestrians and traffic all doing 30mph, so they must have simply not looked or somehow seen through my car. I didn't have time to do anything but a panicked stamp on the brakes - hard enough to lift myself out of the seat a little. I felt the tyres and brakes struggle to avoid locking up while retaining braking force (and the tyres made a quite unpleasant sound). I missed the kid at the back by a few inches (and stopped a few metres after where they crossed). I was probably still going at about 10-15mph when they crossed in front of me.
If I had been driving a car with worse tyres, if it had been raining, if I had been driving 5mph over the speed limit, and maybe if I hadn't had ABS, I would have hit that kid.
LeoSayer said:
RobM77 said:
Older ABS systems could be beaten by a good driver, but modern ones are truly superb…
Agreed. It’s nice to know, at least for my A3, that maximum braking can be achieved by standing on the pedal. However, the last time I had to do this in an emergency was about 15 years ago.
This is precisely why they're the one driver aid I welcome. I drive 40k a year and have been driving 20 years (albeit with varying mileage). I wouldn't like to guess how many times my ABS has woken up and intervened in that period, but it's very few times indeed. I can reliably recall doing about two real emergency stops in that whole time.Fastdruid said:
It's one of those things that while a good driver might be able to outbrake abs the computer will do it consistently, night and day, it won't panic, get tired or maybe slightly impaired after a drink.
Even if I could beat ABS every single time in a test I'd still have it for the reason that you don't get to plan your emergencies.
A quick Google suggests that a modern ABS system can modulate braking pressure 15 times a second. You'd have to be one hell of a fast druid to come anywhere near that Even if I could beat ABS every single time in a test I'd still have it for the reason that you don't get to plan your emergencies.
I can't see any driver being able to match what an ABS system is designed to do.
Conscript said:
Fastdruid said:
It's one of those things that while a good driver might be able to outbrake abs the computer will do it consistently, night and day, it won't panic, get tired or maybe slightly impaired after a drink.
Even if I could beat ABS every single time in a test I'd still have it for the reason that you don't get to plan your emergencies.
A quick Google suggests that a modern ABS system can modulate braking pressure 15 times a second. You'd have to be one hell of a fast druid to come anywhere near that Even if I could beat ABS every single time in a test I'd still have it for the reason that you don't get to plan your emergencies.
I can't see any driver being able to match what an ABS system is designed to do.
And it's not just the reaction times of the ABS, it's also the independent control of all four brakes. Braking hard in a straight line, hands off the steering wheel, with two wheels on tarmac and two wheels on a skid pan surface is pretty impressive. Substitute two wheels on tarmac and two on wet leaves for a more realistic scenario.
Conscript said:
Fastdruid said:
It's one of those things that while a good driver might be able to outbrake abs the computer will do it consistently, night and day, it won't panic, get tired or maybe slightly impaired after a drink.
Even if I could beat ABS every single time in a test I'd still have it for the reason that you don't get to plan your emergencies.
A quick Google suggests that a modern ABS system can modulate braking pressure 15 times a second. You'd have to be one hell of a fast druid to come anywhere near that Even if I could beat ABS every single time in a test I'd still have it for the reason that you don't get to plan your emergencies.
I can't see any driver being able to match what an ABS system is designed to do.
Just look at F1 as an example, "best" drivers in the world and they still lock up, flat spot tyres etc.
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