RE: Moment of glory: PH Blog

[Captain Muppet]

Leins said:

PaulsM3 said:

Devil2575 said:

Is that question though? Whether they are quick enough these days or not isn't really relevant, it's how it compared to it's contemporaries. I think that the M3's biggest moment of Glory was the original. Every version since has to a greater or lesser extent been playing on the motorsport heritage of the original.

That's a fair point, however if we are saying 'which is the best M3 of the lot' we are comparing them to each other.
Therefore, for me, if I drove them all back to back now (rather than just using memory recall) it would be a close run thing between the E30 and an E46 but the E46 will leave me feeling more satisfied.
Especially if we extend that to the ownership proposition too.

The CSL is more exciting, the E30 is more fun. That's the best way I can describe my experiences with them, and I adore both

My experience with a CSL (half an hour on normal roads driving normally) was that it was dull. The E30s I drove were way more involving.

I still love the look of the CSL, I just don't want to own one.

[Captain Muppet]

Ryvita said:

This idea is definitely bound for controversy. Clever article.

It's called trolling when we do it.

[cerb4.5lee]

Niffty951 said:

Nissan Skyline/GT-R - R32 First of an era, replacements just used the same recipe and what ever happened to switchable RWD/4WD?

Mitsubishi Evo - Never been in one but the Evo 8 says EVO to me.

Agree on both counts although I have only driven the Evo 8 but I loved it loads, I have always wanted to own a R34 GTR but when I used to go to "Ten of the Best" it was the R32 that I enjoyed watching go down the strip the most.

[Leins]

Captain Muppet said:

Leins said:

PaulsM3 said:

Devil2575 said:

Is that question though? Whether they are quick enough these days or not isn't really relevant, it's how it compared to it's contemporaries. I think that the M3's biggest moment of Glory was the original. Every version since has to a greater or lesser extent been playing on the motorsport heritage of the original.

That's a fair point, however if we are saying 'which is the best M3 of the lot' we are comparing them to each other.
Therefore, for me, if I drove them all back to back now (rather than just using memory recall) it would be a close run thing between the E30 and an E46 but the E46 will leave me feeling more satisfied.
Especially if we extend that to the ownership proposition too.

The CSL is more exciting, the E30 is more fun. That's the best way I can describe my experiences with them, and I adore both

My experience with a CSL (half an hour on normal roads driving normally) was that it was dull. The E30s I drove were way more involving.

I still love the look of the CSL, I just don't want to own one.

They're worse than a 320d if you're going to use them for such purposes. Why would you expect anything different? They make sense when used in anger

[PaulsM3]

cerb4.5lee said:

Niffty951 said:

Nissan Skyline/GT-R - R32 First of an era, replacements just used the same recipe and what ever happened to switchable RWD/4WD?

Mitsubishi Evo - Never been in one but the Evo 8 says EVO to me.

Agree on both counts although I have only driven the Evo 8 but I loved it loads, I have always wanted to own a R34 GTR but when I used to go to "Ten of the Best" it was the R32 that I enjoyed watching go down the strip the most.

Haven't spent much time in Japanese stuff but have had a go in an R32 and an Evo7. The Evo7 had been breathed on by AP-Tuning with a crazy 550bhp. That was more point and squirt than flow and ride. Couldn't tell you anything about the handling-it was rock hard and all about the engine

[motor mad]

My view is that the earlier cars are normally the best ones.

When maufacturers get success with a certain type of car, they seem to get a bit greedy by trying to appeal to an even wider market, therefore diluting what made them a success in the first place.

[JMF894]

cerb4.5lee said:

soad said:

No love for TVR?

Sadly they never really peaked did they! I reckon the S series really put them on the map to start with and then the models did start getting more and more sexy and more powerful mostly.

Surely the Sag?

[cerb4.5lee]

PaulsM3 said:

cerb4.5lee said:

Niffty951 said:

Nissan Skyline/GT-R - R32 First of an era, replacements just used the same recipe and what ever happened to switchable RWD/4WD?

Mitsubishi Evo - Never been in one but the Evo 8 says EVO to me.

Agree on both counts although I have only driven the Evo 8 but I loved it loads, I have always wanted to own a R34 GTR but when I used to go to "Ten of the Best" it was the R32 that I enjoyed watching go down the strip the most.

Haven't spent much time in Japanese stuff but have had a go in an R32 and an Evo7. The Evo7 had been breathed on by AP-Tuning with a crazy 550bhp. That was more point and squirt than flow and ride. Couldn't tell you anything about the handling-it was rock hard and all about the engine

I bet it was really rapid running that BHP!

[cerb4.5lee]

JMF894 said:

cerb4.5lee said:

soad said:

No love for TVR?

Sadly they never really peaked did they! I reckon the S series really put them on the map to start with and then the models did start getting more and more sexy and more powerful mostly.

Surely the Sag?

The Sag is my favourite and the residuals are awesome too which also speaks volumes, agree it is arguably the latest and greatest.

[rtz62]

Taking the models at the beginning of the article;
Williams Clio mk1
Golf GtI 16v mk2
Porsche 911 (964)
Ferrari 328 QV

Then if we are talking other makes and models;
Audi ur quattro
Bmw E46 M3 CSL
Ford Sierra Cosworth 3dr
Lancia Delta Evo2
Mercedes Cosworth 190-2.5
Peugeot 205 GTi 1.6
Subaru Impreza WR1

Strangely I seem to have owned most of the above, the most noticeable exceptions being the Clio, Porsch and Ferrari...

I've chosen to ignore my real favourites, the road-going version of the GpB monsters (Metro 6R4 etc) but watch this space when the old Inheritance cheque lands....

[drewpasmith]

So: big barges...

Mercedes S-Class: 91-93 W140 600 SEL (Yes. I am biased. No, a facelift car wont do)
BMW 7 Series: E38 750 iL
Bentley: Final Series Arnage
Rolls Royce: Phantom

It feels like the only brand that has continued its ascent re. quality/engineering integrity/experience is Roller.

Totally personal view. Happy to debate.

Over to you!

[gordlaing]

Guvernator said:

BMW M3 - Has to be the E46 for me. The E30's are lovely but have become "too precious" nowadays to be driven in anger without worrying about the investment potential. A nice common or garden manual E46 has the right engine, enough power, the looks and no dodgy SMG box or again worrying about the mileage effecting value's as with a CSL. Someone mentioned the CS, perfect sweetspot IMO.

GT-R - Has to be the R34 for me, preferably in last of the line NUR spec. The last evolution of the great RB26 engine and the best looking IMO. The new R35 is nice but not in the same league in terms of cult status IMO.

911 - Has to be the 993. Modern enough to cut it in today's world in terms of performance but old enough to still have the driving characteristics of a "proper" Porsche (both good and bad). The cream of the crop being the fantastically outlandish GT2 RS Evo 2, nothing else comes close.

Evo - Has to be the Evo 6 Tommi Makkinen, the best version of the best evolution and it actually won races. Anything afterwards became too big and fat and lost that classic butch stocky stance of the classic Evo

Subaru - Has to be the classic, pre 99 cars. I prefer the two door shape in the P1\Type R mold, the ultimate incarnation of which is of course the 22b but any of the classic Subaru's from that era are decent. Plus like the Evo this was a proper homogolation car and actually won races. Everything that came after has been a disappoint in greater or lesser degrees due to less character, more weight and uglier styling.

Clio - The 182 is a good shout but I am going to go further back and go for the Clio Williams. That was the era when hot hatches were proper hot hatches. The 182 isn't a bad car but it just isn't as iconic for me. Oh and navy blue with gold wheels

GTI - Tough one, it's a toss up between the Mk2 16v big bumper version (in Oak Green with BBS alloys) or the VR6 for that fantastic engine and noise. The newer cars are competent enough but just soooo boring in comparison.

Ferrari - V8, flip a coin between the stunningly gorgeous 355 which hasn't been beaten for looks yet or the 360 CS for the noise alone. Anything after has got progressively uglier and less relevant to the real world IMO.

V12, surely the Enzo. It might look a bit odd and gawky from some angles but it looks like nothing else on the road and we won't see it's like again. Still the ultimate incarnation of the V12 Ferrari imo.

agree with absolutely all of that!

[canucklehead]

i predict many many pages of forum posts on this topic.

i'm with Dan on 911s as he picked the one i have :-)

[TWPC]

drewpasmith said:

So: big barges...

Mercedes S-Class: 91-93 W140 600 SEL (Yes. I am biased. No, a facelift car wont do)
BMW 7 Series: E38 750 iL
Bentley: Final Series Arnage
Rolls Royce: Phantom

It feels like the only brand that has continued its ascent re. quality/engineering integrity/experience is Roller.

Totally personal view. Happy to debate.

Over to you!

S-Class: agree
7 series: agree
Bentley: 2008-11 Brooklands or 1952-55 R-Type Continental
A Brooklands is for sale:
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/2015...
Rolls-Royce: 1925 Phantom 1 with machine gun
http://articles.latimes.com/2013/sep/25/autos/la-f...

[cuda]

Ryvita said:

This idea is definitely bound for controversy. Clever article.

For M3... I'll stake a mark on the E46 CSL as being pretty hard to beat?

Other interesting ones to see views on would be the Lotus Elise, the BMW MINI, and maybe the Honda Civic Type-R?

Hmmm - agree with E46 bit but not the CSL bit - too flawed - not a road car or a track car - and that gearbox... Had it been a manual, then maybe...

Edited by cuda on Friday 17th April 17:48

[NelsonP]

Guvernator said:

BMW M3 - Has to be the E46 for me. The E30's are lovely but have become "too precious" nowadays to be driven in anger without worrying about the investment potential. A nice common or garden manual E46 has the right engine, enough power, the looks and no dodgy SMG box or again worrying about the mileage effecting value's as with a CSL. Someone mentioned the CS, perfect sweetspot IMO.

GT-R - Has to be the R34 for me, preferably in last of the line NUR spec. The last evolution of the great RB26 engine and the best looking IMO. The new R35 is nice but not in the same league in terms of cult status IMO.

911 - Has to be the 993. Modern enough to cut it in today's world in terms of performance but old enough to still have the driving characteristics of a "proper" Porsche (both good and bad). The cream of the crop being the fantastically outlandish GT2 RS Evo 2, nothing else comes close.

Evo - Has to be the Evo 6 Tommi Makkinen, the best version of the best evolution and it actually won races. Anything afterwards became too big and fat and lost that classic butch stocky stance of the classic Evo

Subaru - Has to be the classic, pre 99 cars. I prefer the two door shape in the P1\Type R mold, the ultimate incarnation of which is of course the 22b but any of the classic Subaru's from that era are decent. Plus like the Evo this was a proper homogolation car and actually won races. Everything that came after has been a disappoint in greater or lesser degrees due to less character, more weight and uglier styling.

Clio - The 182 is a good shout but I am going to go further back and go for the Clio Williams. That was the era when hot hatches were proper hot hatches. The 182 isn't a bad car but it just isn't as iconic for me. Oh and navy blue with gold wheels

GTI - Tough one, it's a toss up between the Mk2 16v big bumper version (in Oak Green with BBS alloys) or the VR6 for that fantastic engine and noise. The newer cars are competent enough but just soooo boring in comparison.

Ferrari - V8, flip a coin between the stunningly gorgeous 355 which hasn't been beaten for looks yet or the 360 CS for the noise alone. Anything after has got progressively uglier and less relevant to the real world IMO.

V12, surely the Enzo. It might look a bit odd and gawky from some angles but it looks like nothing else on the road and we won't see it's like again. Still the ultimate incarnation of the V12 Ferrari imo.

mk2 big bumper gti over vr6 though

Edited by NelsonP on Friday 17th April 18:08

[Matt UK]

Ryvita said:

For M3... I'll stake a mark on the E46 CSL as being pretty hard to beat?

Good call, but having driven neither but read plenty, I always thought I'd enjoy a manual M3 CS more.

[Baryonyx]

Devil2575 said:

Is that question though? Whether they are quick enough these days or not isn't really relevant, it's how it compared to it's contemporaries. I think that the M3's biggest moment of Glory was the original. Every version since has to a greater or lesser extent been playing on the motorsport heritage of the original.

Those glorious days when the M3 was always being beaten by the Sierra RS Cosworth.

[DubZeus]

E34 M5 so very subtle yet still very capable & the last M5 with a Motorsport related engine

[Devil2575]

Baryonyx said:

Devil2575 said:

Is that question though? Whether they are quick enough these days or not isn't really relevant, it's how it compared to it's contemporaries. I think that the M3's biggest moment of Glory was the original. Every version since has to a greater or lesser extent been playing on the motorsport heritage of the original.

Those glorious days when the M3 was always being beaten by the Sierra RS Cosworth.

The one with the big fk off turbo, yes. It doesn't take away from how good the M3 was. An M3 still won the world touring car championship in 1987 and had a very successful racing pedigree.

Edited by Devil2575 on Friday 17th April 22:53