RE: Moment of glory: PH Blog
Discussion
I haven't driven nearly enough cars to warrant an opinion on this one. Considering how affordable all three generations are, though, I'd be very interested to hear people's views on which MR2 was the best.
And while we're at it, is the XJ suited better by a v12 or a supercharged v8, d'you reckon?
And while we're at it, is the XJ suited better by a v12 or a supercharged v8, d'you reckon?
Interesting topic.
I would put the Golf GTI MK2 16V Big-Bumper model as the apogee of the VW GTI bloodline. That said, I happened to briefly drive one again recently and suddenly became very aware of how much development has moved the game on in the way of build quality, finish, and safety improvements (airbags, side-impact protection bars, etc) since the 80's.
For Porsche, my all-time favourite for everyday usage is the balance of power, grip, handling and accessible performance that the 944 S2 delivers. The 924 is a lesser car, the 944 turbo doesn't markedly improve it, nor the final 968 variant. I went to a 911 Carrera 2 964 model after the S2 and spent the next 6 months in denial that its handling and accessible performance were in fact inferior.
Mercedes? Has to be the W124 line. Elegant, restrained, timeless styling and not built down to a price.
BMW - E39 5 series. My son has an E39 520i touring. Still a class act. The current 5 series is a nice drive and has more toys but it's not a fundamentally better car.
Bentley; 1930 4.5 litre W O Bentley unsupercharged. Just need the £500,000 a good one now costs from my eurolottery numbers...
I would put the Golf GTI MK2 16V Big-Bumper model as the apogee of the VW GTI bloodline. That said, I happened to briefly drive one again recently and suddenly became very aware of how much development has moved the game on in the way of build quality, finish, and safety improvements (airbags, side-impact protection bars, etc) since the 80's.
For Porsche, my all-time favourite for everyday usage is the balance of power, grip, handling and accessible performance that the 944 S2 delivers. The 924 is a lesser car, the 944 turbo doesn't markedly improve it, nor the final 968 variant. I went to a 911 Carrera 2 964 model after the S2 and spent the next 6 months in denial that its handling and accessible performance were in fact inferior.
Mercedes? Has to be the W124 line. Elegant, restrained, timeless styling and not built down to a price.
BMW - E39 5 series. My son has an E39 520i touring. Still a class act. The current 5 series is a nice drive and has more toys but it's not a fundamentally better car.
Bentley; 1930 4.5 litre W O Bentley unsupercharged. Just need the £500,000 a good one now costs from my eurolottery numbers...
Of the Imprezas I've had, I'd rate my current 2012 saloon STI as the best of the lot. Comfortable enough, decent enough interior, centre diff control and cruise control and decent enough speakers and stereo. The drive is fantastic. It's also subtle enough to park places without fear of vandalism.
Best 5-series for me is the E39 3.0 Diesel Auto in SE spec(used to be in my mind the touring but it suddenly looks so old so now the saloon) - never bettered in my humble view while the E46 6 cylinder autos or M3 manuals were the highpoint.
For Merc I don't think they have ever bettered the w126, 124, 190e period - it's a reputation they still trade on but don't quite achieve. W140 was the best Merc ever but crikey it's ugly and you always have to explian to people why it's so good!
For Merc I don't think they have ever bettered the w126, 124, 190e period - it's a reputation they still trade on but don't quite achieve. W140 was the best Merc ever but crikey it's ugly and you always have to explian to people why it's so good!
Edited by Numeric on Sunday 19th April 10:04
Leins said:
Captain Muppet said:
Leins said:
PaulsM3 said:
Devil2575 said:
Is that question though? Whether they are quick enough these days or not isn't really relevant, it's how it compared to it's contemporaries. I think that the M3's biggest moment of Glory was the original. Every version since has to a greater or lesser extent been playing on the motorsport heritage of the original.
That's a fair point, however if we are saying 'which is the best M3 of the lot' we are comparing them to each other. Therefore, for me, if I drove them all back to back now (rather than just using memory recall) it would be a close run thing between the E30 and an E46 but the E46 will leave me feeling more satisfied.
Especially if we extend that to the ownership proposition too.
I still love the look of the CSL, I just don't want to own one.
Captain Muppet said:
Leins said:
Captain Muppet said:
Leins said:
PaulsM3 said:
Devil2575 said:
Is that question though? Whether they are quick enough these days or not isn't really relevant, it's how it compared to it's contemporaries. I think that the M3's biggest moment of Glory was the original. Every version since has to a greater or lesser extent been playing on the motorsport heritage of the original.
That's a fair point, however if we are saying 'which is the best M3 of the lot' we are comparing them to each other. Therefore, for me, if I drove them all back to back now (rather than just using memory recall) it would be a close run thing between the E30 and an E46 but the E46 will leave me feeling more satisfied.
Especially if we extend that to the ownership proposition too.
I still love the look of the CSL, I just don't want to own one.
Actus Reus said:
I'd be interested to hear where people think the MX5 was best (as a recent convert and owner of an NA S-Special)...
Well, as the owner of an NB (the post-facelift one) I think the interior particularly is a great step up from the NA. Never driven an NA so can't comment on handling, but the cars were slightly lighter than the second gen. I have a 1.6 and I've read numerous times that it revs more willingly than a 1.8, but again - haven't driven one of these yet.I hate the looks on the pre-facelift NB but love the post-facelift, maybe even a little more than the NA. Interior quality really sets it for me though.
I'd agree with much of this. The 182 Clio Cup was the last properly quick "small" hot hatch and there will never be another like it. Its just the right size for chucking around but still has a half decent ride. The 200 was set up more with the track in mind and that engine needs revving a lot. The Golf MK5 was the last Golf GTI that really looked like a GTI. The Mk6/7 may be technically better but look too much like the GTD variant to really stand out. The Mk5 also moved on performance massively from the Mk4. Since then its been fairly small incremental steps....As for the 911, The 997.1 Carrera S won every award in every car magazine in 2004, the 991 Carrera has failed to achieve anything like that respect. The 997 is pretty too....
Just revisited this post to see what had been written 
Evo - Interesting. I'll not argue the VI Makkinen was a seminal car, although many views seem to be based on what's been experienced. I test drove a couple of different ages, and the 9 had to pip it. It's an amazingly capable car, but with the MIVEC on top of the engine, it adds that last aspect, low down torque. It makes it considerably more drivable. As for the fat and flabby comment of cars after the 6, on the contrary, despite additional bits, the 9 isn't generally much heavier than the 6, it's the 10 where it bloats up a bit. It certainly doesn't have a flabby feel, whatever pace you're traveling at. So call me old school, but this was therefore the pinnacle IMVHO, manual and 'relatively' tech-less (diffs notwithstanding)and just you and the car.
M5 - Similar reasons really, but as I've seen written about the R33, it's a car that initially feels large (and not light, but like a huge chunk of granite)yet when pushing on, it shrinks around you. Great car for all seasons, I need to get mine sorted and back on the road as a daily. Reading between the lines on the forums, it's not necessarily a widely-held belief that the E60 is an upgrade...
Oh, and if I won the lottery, I would have to find a really good R32.
Evo - Interesting. I'll not argue the VI Makkinen was a seminal car, although many views seem to be based on what's been experienced. I test drove a couple of different ages, and the 9 had to pip it. It's an amazingly capable car, but with the MIVEC on top of the engine, it adds that last aspect, low down torque. It makes it considerably more drivable. As for the fat and flabby comment of cars after the 6, on the contrary, despite additional bits, the 9 isn't generally much heavier than the 6, it's the 10 where it bloats up a bit. It certainly doesn't have a flabby feel, whatever pace you're traveling at. So call me old school, but this was therefore the pinnacle IMVHO, manual and 'relatively' tech-less (diffs notwithstanding)and just you and the car.
M5 - Similar reasons really, but as I've seen written about the R33, it's a car that initially feels large (and not light, but like a huge chunk of granite)yet when pushing on, it shrinks around you. Great car for all seasons, I need to get mine sorted and back on the road as a daily. Reading between the lines on the forums, it's not necessarily a widely-held belief that the E60 is an upgrade...
Oh, and if I won the lottery, I would have to find a really good R32.
I think the only fair way to do it is to compare the car in question to its peers of the time....the E36 M3 EVO had 320bhp in 1995 from an N/A engine, it was miles ahead at the time but never gets any credit..I don't think the E46 is a massive leap on from that car..it handles much better but then so does every other car 6 years on...for me the E36 is a very underrated car and my favorite of all the M3's because I remember being in it at the time and being amazed by how fast it was ..Its the only M3 I've been in that got a "holy f**k"..It was approaching supercar speed, It was faster than an NSX and not that far of a 355 once up and going.
Feeblebob said:
The differing views on the best M3 are interesting too. I thought it'd be E30 all day long, but maybe not.
Which characteristics someone values more in a car will influence the decision. The newer you go the more convenient they are to use and higher limits they have. Taking the M3, the E46 hits some people’s sweet spot as the driving experience is involving enough and the dynamic limits are not too high to be used without going to jail, and the convenience and ease of use mean very little compromises are needed to own one. Those more focussed will appreciate the CSL as the balance tips more toward the driving experience with slightly higher limits, more suited to the track and away from the convenience/ease of use.If we look at the E30 with these criteria, the driving dynamics are probably the most involving, but the limits (and outright performance) are much lower. Add in to this the (in)convenience of use due to wind noise, engine noise, comfort ect, it is easy to see why some would see the E46 as the sweet spot.
Me, I’ll keep my E30 M3 as I don’t mind the noise(s) and inconvenience, and being able to play hard with it at sane speeds is a big plus for me.
Dagnut said:
I think the only fair way to do it is to compare the car in question to its peers of the time....the E36 M3 EVO had 320bhp in 1995 from an N/A engine, it was miles ahead at the time but never gets any credit..I don't think the E46 is a massive leap on from that car..it handles much better but then so does every other car 6 years on...for me the E36 is a very underrated car and my favorite of all the M3's because I remember being in it at the time and being amazed by how fast it was ..Its the only M3 I've been in that got a "holy f**k"..It was approaching supercar speed, It was faster than an NSX and not that far of a 355 once up and going.
The E36 M3 is my favourite too and I loved driving it and being a passenger and I thought it was a great car, my only worry is that I am viewing it now through rose tinted glasses. cerb4.5lee said:
The E36 M3 is my favourite too and I loved driving it and being a passenger and I thought it was a great car, my only worry is that I am viewing it now through rose tinted glasses.
I don't think its rose tinted, in context it was a brilliant car..very few cars on the road at the time could show it a clean pair of heelsstevesingo said:
Which characteristics someone values more in a car will influence the decision. The newer you go the more convenient they are to use and higher limits they have. Taking the M3, the E46 hits some people’s sweet spot as the driving experience is involving enough and the dynamic limits are not too high to be used without going to jail, and the convenience and ease of use mean very little compromises are needed to own one. Those more focussed will appreciate the CSL as the balance tips more toward the driving experience with slightly higher limits, more suited to the track and away from the convenience/ease of use.
If we look at the E30 with these criteria, the driving dynamics are probably the most involving, but the limits (and outright performance) are much lower. Add in to this the (in)convenience of use due to wind noise, engine noise, comfort ect, it is easy to see why some would see the E46 as the sweet spot.
Me, I’ll keep my E30 M3 as I don’t mind the noise(s) and inconvenience, and being able to play hard with it at sane speeds is a big plus for me.
If we look at the E30 with these criteria, the driving dynamics are probably the most involving, but the limits (and outright performance) are much lower. Add in to this the (in)convenience of use due to wind noise, engine noise, comfort ect, it is easy to see why some would see the E46 as the sweet spot.
Me, I’ll keep my E30 M3 as I don’t mind the noise(s) and inconvenience, and being able to play hard with it at sane speeds is a big plus for me.
A very good point. The big pursuit nowadays tends to be for power, and more power. The newest hypercars are a good examples, it seems to be more about numbers. My Evo is a creditably capable car, but it's a very good point that once out of second, anywhere, my radar detector had better be working well and other road users simply can't account for it...Perhaps the most fun car I ever used was a 1.0 Micra in this sense, you could cane the poor thing to death on B-roads and it was well within the law. Catching the apex was never so satisfying. Taught me well about the best lines for conservation of momentum. But I'm waffling now.
Top Gear rated the lowest power Caterham in their group test as best, simply becuase it was more fun and didn't feel as though it was going to kill you at every bend.
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