Diesel just doesn't win me over....
Discussion
Diderot said:
... and it doesn't drive that much differently to an x35d/x40d. Don't get me wrong, I love our M135i it's a fantastic package but absolutely no point revving it out either to 7k. It also has more lag than the x35d and its throttle response is not as sharp. And of course the noise is all a bit virtual too. Remember these 3 litre turbo petrols are nothing like the NA 3 litres or indeed the S54.
Maybe a bit of an exaggeration! To me, the x35i engine feels halfway between a good NA 6 cyl and an excellent 6 cyl diesel. The lasting impression is of breadth of ability and pace, rather than feel or excitement.Diderot said:
... and it doesn't drive that much differently to an x35d/x40d. Don't get me wrong, I love our M135i it's a fantastic package but absolutely no point revving it out either to 7k. It also has more lag than the x35d and its throttle response is not as sharp. And of course the noise is all a bit virtual too. Remember these 3 litre turbo petrols are nothing like the NA 3 litres or indeed the S54.
You make a good point and one thing I like about the 640d is that it just gets up and goes with very little throttle input and to get the same response from the 330i you have to thrash the life out of it and get the revs very very high but it is a very nice engine when you do that and it is rewarding for it. I am torn a little because I adore the M235i but I do wonder if it would just be too similar in some respects with its delivery to the 640d and you have experience of both engines so I enjoy reading the experience you have of them.
Some of us drive diesels because that's the only engine you can get with the model.
I would have loved a V8 Disco3. The issue is they only made them for 2 years, 04-06 and sold in so little numbers that LR simply dropped the model for the UK market.
However, i like it, it suits the car and the autobox and the low down torque makes for good driving and also better towing as the petrol has the power at the top of the rev range, which isn't ideal for towing.
Plus the fuel range is decent, a remap will sort the performance issue.
Turbo is fine, EGR got blanked by previous owner, it's too old to have a dpf so it's fine that side, injectors need a refurb, but it's over 10 years old so i can forgive that.
Also, there are plenty of small petrol's that sound and drive awfully so it's not a diesel only issue.
Have to say the 3.0 diesel in my dad's XF with 240 bhp is a great engine, 0-60 in just over 6 seconds, 149 top speed, and so far an average of 46 mpg. Smooth and quiet like a true Jag should be and a superb car.
I would have loved a V8 Disco3. The issue is they only made them for 2 years, 04-06 and sold in so little numbers that LR simply dropped the model for the UK market.
However, i like it, it suits the car and the autobox and the low down torque makes for good driving and also better towing as the petrol has the power at the top of the rev range, which isn't ideal for towing.
Plus the fuel range is decent, a remap will sort the performance issue.
Turbo is fine, EGR got blanked by previous owner, it's too old to have a dpf so it's fine that side, injectors need a refurb, but it's over 10 years old so i can forgive that.
Also, there are plenty of small petrol's that sound and drive awfully so it's not a diesel only issue.
Have to say the 3.0 diesel in my dad's XF with 240 bhp is a great engine, 0-60 in just over 6 seconds, 149 top speed, and so far an average of 46 mpg. Smooth and quiet like a true Jag should be and a superb car.
A.J.M said:
Some of us drive diesels because that's the only engine you can get with the model.
I would have loved a V8 Disco3. The issue is they only made them for 2 years, 04-06 and sold in so little numbers that LR simply dropped the model for the UK market.
However, i like it, it suits the car and the autobox and the low down torque makes for good driving and also better towing as the petrol has the power at the top of the rev range, which isn't ideal for towing.
I understand where you are coming from and when I was looking to buy a X5 I only wanted the V8 4.8 petrol but for me it didn't really suit the car in many ways and it didn't make that much sense really and after I owned it I thought it would be far better suited to the 3.0d engine. I would have loved a V8 Disco3. The issue is they only made them for 2 years, 04-06 and sold in so little numbers that LR simply dropped the model for the UK market.
However, i like it, it suits the car and the autobox and the low down torque makes for good driving and also better towing as the petrol has the power at the top of the rev range, which isn't ideal for towing.
I once had a little fun in it with a TDV6 Disco and I cant tell you how impressed I was with the disco`s performance and since then I never seem to see them being driven slowly and I have lots of respect for the disco.
I had a 1.7 diesel courtesy Mokka for about 6 weeks recently. It sounded like a traktor and moved like one until you really put the foot down; then it would move quickly. But unrefined doesn't even begin to cover it. It was like driving a 15 year old car. However, I drive a 2 litre leon fr diesel and the engine in that is very refined and snappy and I love driving it. In a couple of years when I'm not driving 24k miles a year to work, I'll obviously opt for a petrol again.
Owned petrols and diesels and like driving both. Couldn't care less what the plonker sitting next to me at the lights thinks of the sound my car makes.
Owned petrols and diesels and like driving both. Couldn't care less what the plonker sitting next to me at the lights thinks of the sound my car makes.
Edited by Jonno02 on Sunday 19th April 18:03
I wanted a 5 series to do not so many miles in.. I went for the 4.8 V8
If I was doing high miles I'd probably just get a 520d..
I've had a 335d previous and it was just a bit bland, went well but not for me.
As it stands the V8 in mine makes my pretty boring car into something a bit special IMO.
If I was doing high miles I'd probably just get a 520d..
I've had a 335d previous and it was just a bit bland, went well but not for me.
As it stands the V8 in mine makes my pretty boring car into something a bit special IMO.
cerb4.5lee said:
A.J.M said:
Some of us drive diesels because that's the only engine you can get with the model.
I would have loved a V8 Disco3. The issue is they only made them for 2 years, 04-06 and sold in so little numbers that LR simply dropped the model for the UK market.
However, i like it, it suits the car and the autobox and the low down torque makes for good driving and also better towing as the petrol has the power at the top of the rev range, which isn't ideal for towing.
I understand where you are coming from and when I was looking to buy a X5 I only wanted the V8 4.8 petrol but for me it didn't really suit the car in many ways and it didn't make that much sense really and after I owned it I thought it would be far better suited to the 3.0d engine. I would have loved a V8 Disco3. The issue is they only made them for 2 years, 04-06 and sold in so little numbers that LR simply dropped the model for the UK market.
However, i like it, it suits the car and the autobox and the low down torque makes for good driving and also better towing as the petrol has the power at the top of the rev range, which isn't ideal for towing.
I once had a little fun in it with a TDV6 Disco and I cant tell you how impressed I was with the disco`s performance and since then I never seem to see them being driven slowly and I have lots of respect for the disco.
Even with a upgraded intercooler, mine is still slow, but it will allow me to hit 250+ bhp when i get it sorted.
Funnily enough, i'm on a off road forum and a lot of the US D3 owners wish they had the diesel for the better fuel range, low down torque for off roading and the towing ability.
That and the tdv6 allow's 17s to be fitted which opens up a lot of off road tyre options, as the V8 comes with 18s as minimum to cover the larger brakes, so trying to get decent off road tyres can be an issue at times for them.
A.J.M said:
cerb4.5lee said:
A.J.M said:
Some of us drive diesels because that's the only engine you can get with the model.
I would have loved a V8 Disco3. The issue is they only made them for 2 years, 04-06 and sold in so little numbers that LR simply dropped the model for the UK market.
However, i like it, it suits the car and the autobox and the low down torque makes for good driving and also better towing as the petrol has the power at the top of the rev range, which isn't ideal for towing.
I understand where you are coming from and when I was looking to buy a X5 I only wanted the V8 4.8 petrol but for me it didn't really suit the car in many ways and it didn't make that much sense really and after I owned it I thought it would be far better suited to the 3.0d engine. I would have loved a V8 Disco3. The issue is they only made them for 2 years, 04-06 and sold in so little numbers that LR simply dropped the model for the UK market.
However, i like it, it suits the car and the autobox and the low down torque makes for good driving and also better towing as the petrol has the power at the top of the rev range, which isn't ideal for towing.
I once had a little fun in it with a TDV6 Disco and I cant tell you how impressed I was with the disco`s performance and since then I never seem to see them being driven slowly and I have lots of respect for the disco.
philmots said:
I wanted a 5 series to do not so many miles in.. I went for the 4.8 V8
If I was doing high miles I'd probably just get a 520d..
I've had a 335d previous and it was just a bit bland, went well but not for me.
As it stands the V8 in mine makes my pretty boring car into something a bit special IMO.
I loved that V8 engine very much but it was wasted in the X5 I reckon, trust me I have had a 520d and you have by a country mile made the best choice If I was doing high miles I'd probably just get a 520d..
I've had a 335d previous and it was just a bit bland, went well but not for me.
As it stands the V8 in mine makes my pretty boring car into something a bit special IMO.
that 2.0d engine is the worst engine I have experienced by some margin...and I tell anyone that will listen to avoid it!! Diderot said:
Welshbeef said:
mikey k said:
I've done over 30k miles/year for the last 15 years and have really hated the occassions I've had to drive diesels
Each to their own
My frustration is many models are now very very limited on petrol versions now
The petrol resurrection can't come soon enough for me
M135i daily driver
This graph illustrates that peak power is very close to the red line & also that the std model they tested was pushing out 350bhp stock.
jamieduff1981 said:
How much does it cost to save a few mpg?
I'm with the OP on this. I hate diesels.
I agree. Hateful things. sI'm with the OP on this. I hate diesels.
t sounding cars. And thankfully the movement against them is gaining momentum. Worst thing I did was buying a bloody diesel B Class. At least it will sell easily to another mug.
jamieduff1981 said:
I have a 600lb.ft 5 cylinder diesel auto for daily business use. It's ok for a truck but surely nobody would argue it's what you'd want in a luxury car. The diesel suits the truck well because it's meant for towing heavy things slowly. It does not make for relaxed rapid progress.
Sums it up perfectly! The sole purpose of diesel engines was for industry/agriculture/heavy transport and when in their typical unrefined and unrestrained state they do the job intended perfectly. When manufacturers start messing around with this concept and try numbing down and refining diesels, it's never going to end well really.I'm not huge on diesels, I've gone to a 640d from a C63 and the change is obviously HUGE.
However, forgetting the major difference in noise, this diesel engine is pretty good. On the whole it's pretty refined, likes to rev to the redline and chipped like mine provides pretty amazing performance for a car of it's power and weight. You can't ignore torque, in my C63 it also made it the car it was.
I'm sticking to diesel for a while longer as my mileage is going to be high for the next 1-2 years, but as soon as my office changes so I can commute by train I plan to go back to a petrol and nothing less than 400-500bhp too (and likely V8).
I will argue for the diesel engine in my 640d by also adding that I can EASILY get 45-50mpg on a dual carriageway / motorway and even hammering it, it will never drop below 25mpg. It's a significant monthly saving.
I've seen my fuel prices half too so it really does suit my needs and I think that's the thing about diesel, it's far from perfect but the from an efficiency / performance angle it's still impossible to match and if you do 18k+ it makes sense.
However, forgetting the major difference in noise, this diesel engine is pretty good. On the whole it's pretty refined, likes to rev to the redline and chipped like mine provides pretty amazing performance for a car of it's power and weight. You can't ignore torque, in my C63 it also made it the car it was.
I'm sticking to diesel for a while longer as my mileage is going to be high for the next 1-2 years, but as soon as my office changes so I can commute by train I plan to go back to a petrol and nothing less than 400-500bhp too (and likely V8).
I will argue for the diesel engine in my 640d by also adding that I can EASILY get 45-50mpg on a dual carriageway / motorway and even hammering it, it will never drop below 25mpg. It's a significant monthly saving.
I've seen my fuel prices half too so it really does suit my needs and I think that's the thing about diesel, it's far from perfect but the from an efficiency / performance angle it's still impossible to match and if you do 18k+ it makes sense.
AM7 said:
Sums it up perfectly! The sole purpose of diesel engines was for industry/agriculture/heavy transport and when in their typical unrefined and unrestrained state they do the job intended perfectly. When manufacturers start messing around with this concept and try numbing down and refining diesels, it's never going to end well really.
You are incorrect Diesel was not designed for that - instead Dr Diesel hoped it would mobilise the 2nd and 3rd world countries and that they can run on anything really. IE peanut oil etc. so a very cheap way to run an engine throughout the world.
It's output characteristics originally was N/A so chug chug chug low revs high output while using much less fuel a win win.
The terrible noise they used to make was down to the indirect injection this has moved to direct injection which has vastly decreased its noise. They have increased frequency and moved up to super high pressure injector rails which has reduced this further (oddly many people say the E92 M3 & E60 M5 sound very like a diesel at ide).
The engineers have essentially made the best diesels now have a Rev France up to 6k revs similar to most forced induction Petrols. They have also worked hard tomassivrlt amplify its character to make it a very useful tool for overtaking and it's true that on average your accessing a vastly higher % of its output than the petrol equivalent. So driving a diesel you are using more of its outright abilities more of the time than an identical powered petrol (thus they are quicker at times).
The sensation of surging does give those in the cabin a sense of hard acceleration - whereas in a petrol if your hitting Rev limit in 3rd your doing 100mph. Fine on private roads but that means you only have 1st gear to hit max power and 2nd gear or 3rd with some very short geared cars.
Welshbeef said:
You are incorrect
Diesel was not designed for that - instead Dr Diesel hoped it would mobilise the 2nd and 3rd world countries and that they can run on anything really. IE peanut oil etc. so a very cheap way to run an engine throughout the world.
It's output characteristics originally was N/A so chug chug chug low revs high output while using much less fuel a win win.
The terrible noise they used to make was down to the indirect injection this has moved to direct injection which has vastly decreased its noise. They have increased frequency and moved up to super high pressure injector rails which has reduced this further (oddly many people say the E92 M3 & E60 M5 sound very like a diesel at ide).
The engineers have essentially made the best diesels now have a Rev France up to 6k revs similar to most forced induction Petrols. They have also worked hard tomassivrlt amplify its character to make it a very useful tool for overtaking and it's true that on average your accessing a vastly higher % of its output than the petrol equivalent. So driving a diesel you are using more of its outright abilities more of the time than an identical powered petrol (thus they are quicker at times).
The sensation of surging does give those in the cabin a sense of hard acceleration - whereas in a petrol if your hitting Rev limit in 3rd your doing 100mph. Fine on private roads but that means you only have 1st gear to hit max power and 2nd gear or 3rd with some very short geared cars.
The surge is 'jerk' which you get because the acceleration is strongly non-linear. Linear power delivery is much more enjoyable to most enthusiastic drivers. Diesel was not designed for that - instead Dr Diesel hoped it would mobilise the 2nd and 3rd world countries and that they can run on anything really. IE peanut oil etc. so a very cheap way to run an engine throughout the world.
It's output characteristics originally was N/A so chug chug chug low revs high output while using much less fuel a win win.
The terrible noise they used to make was down to the indirect injection this has moved to direct injection which has vastly decreased its noise. They have increased frequency and moved up to super high pressure injector rails which has reduced this further (oddly many people say the E92 M3 & E60 M5 sound very like a diesel at ide).
The engineers have essentially made the best diesels now have a Rev France up to 6k revs similar to most forced induction Petrols. They have also worked hard tomassivrlt amplify its character to make it a very useful tool for overtaking and it's true that on average your accessing a vastly higher % of its output than the petrol equivalent. So driving a diesel you are using more of its outright abilities more of the time than an identical powered petrol (thus they are quicker at times).
The sensation of surging does give those in the cabin a sense of hard acceleration - whereas in a petrol if your hitting Rev limit in 3rd your doing 100mph. Fine on private roads but that means you only have 1st gear to hit max power and 2nd gear or 3rd with some very short geared cars.
Diesel really only makes sense (stupid taxation apart) for drivers who do a lot of miles.
As for 6000rpm - the limiter may kick in then, but you are well past peak torque and quite far beyond peak power. Realistically, most people change up at (at most) 4000rpm in a diesel and 6000rpm in a petrol, which is quite a big difference. There are still diesels out there that give up at around 4000rpm (having had nothing below 2000rpm), so the problem of a minuscule power band is still real (although not in BMWs, etc).
The advances in diesel tech have been amazing. If only all that money and effort had been thrown at petrol engines or hybrid tech.
ORD said:
Diderot said:
... and it doesn't drive that much differently to an x35d/x40d. Don't get me wrong, I love our M135i it's a fantastic package but absolutely no point revving it out either to 7k. It also has more lag than the x35d and its throttle response is not as sharp. And of course the noise is all a bit virtual too. Remember these 3 litre turbo petrols are nothing like the NA 3 litres or indeed the S54.
Maybe a bit of an exaggeration! To me, the x35i engine feels halfway between a good NA 6 cyl and an excellent 6 cyl diesel. The lasting impression is of breadth of ability and pace, rather than feel or excitement.What I'd really like to see are some in gear figures from the X35d/X35i and the S54 to satisfy my own curiosity. I did love the way the Z4M coupe ran from 30mph to somewhere north of 70mph in 3rd, and it sounded pretty damn good. But it feels a bit pointless doing that in the M135i since you can definitely feel a tail off near 6k rpm . And I'd say that in gear from 30 onwards the M135i would be a fair bit quicker than the Z4M (and with the auto, little contest really). The 635d does feel quicker than the M135i, whether it is or not is another question, but it'd be interesting to find out. I do think the 640d would be a fair bit quicker than the x35i though given similar bhp but huge torque advantage.
For me, though, the x35d in the 6er is a perfect combo - ok the 640d would have be even better - fab near silent fast cruise down to Cornwall and back a few weeks ago. One tank, 580 miles. That includes up hill and down dale ( or tor) when we there too. I remember doing exactly the same trip in my 07 plate XKR about 5 years ago. I think that needed 3 fill ups. Ok so sounded much better, especially with the exhaust mods
, but 190 ish miles on a tank gets a bit boring on a long run. cerb4.5lee said:
Diderot said:
... and it doesn't drive that much differently to an x35d/x40d. Don't get me wrong, I love our M135i it's a fantastic package but absolutely no point revving it out either to 7k. It also has more lag than the x35d and its throttle response is not as sharp. And of course the noise is all a bit virtual too. Remember these 3 litre turbo petrols are nothing like the NA 3 litres or indeed the S54.
You make a good point and one thing I like about the 640d is that it just gets up and goes with very little throttle input and to get the same response from the 330i you have to thrash the life out of it and get the revs very very high but it is a very nice engine when you do that and it is rewarding for it. I am torn a little because I adore the M235i but I do wonder if it would just be too similar in some respects with its delivery to the 640d and you have experience of both engines so I enjoy reading the experience you have of them.
daemon said:
Jimboka said:
E65Ross said:
I'm not the only one who thinks this, am I?
I reckon your not the only one. But a lot will disagree. Exactly the same as the rest of the daily diesel v petrol bunfights...
They're not. In fact the window in which they are better is shrinking all the time - both from more economical petrol cars, hybrids and reliability issues from middle age onwards.
Edited by daemon on Sunday 19th April 15:36
But Diesels are far more economical than petrol cars. Reliability issues are an internet myth.
Is this Groundhog day?
There will be a near identical thread started on Monday. And Tuesday. And Wednesday. Just before the daily cyclist v car driver Youtube punchup & after the DRL thread. Mark my word!
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