Diesel just doesn't win me over....
Discussion
I thought I would fancy a diesel, so I swapped my Audi A3 for one, a 2006 Skoda Fabia VRS. Yes in gear acceleration was potent and the turbo kicked in hard, but I could not get over the "agricultural" feel of the PD TDI engine. Had it for 3 weeks, PX'd it for a low mileage Clio 182. I'm happy now and not changing again (although I have to admit 50 mpg was nice)
f1nn said:
I'm driving a straight six 3.0D, putting out 287bhp and the best part of 500 pounds foot of torque, top speed of 155MPH, 0-100 times of 13.5 ish and fuel consumption averaging around 44MPG.
Coupled with an auto box, this combo just gives me effortless performance. I'm unsure an equivalent Petrol motor, while potentially delivering similar headline figures, would go about it in the same fuss free manor.
Near 400 brake. Near 400 foot pounds. Silent. Butter smooth. Gearshift a you don't feel unless pressing on. Coupled with an auto box, this combo just gives me effortless performance. I'm unsure an equivalent Petrol motor, while potentially delivering similar headline figures, would go about it in the same fuss free manor.
Plenty fast enough.
Can't touch the fuel consumption, but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
I'm enjoying a RRS with the diesel in it and the mpgs it provides - were I to go for the petrol engine I'd be looking at a fair chunk per gallon less. That's not just a mile or 2 it's an absolute f
kload and then add on to that the the petrol engined version costs more as well....
For the next car we are looking at a 430 xDrive.... that only comes in diesel flavour should I sacrifice what I want just so I can drive a petrol one?
kload and then add on to that the the petrol engined version costs more as well....For the next car we are looking at a 430 xDrive.... that only comes in diesel flavour should I sacrifice what I want just so I can drive a petrol one?
Mr E said:
Near 400 brake. Near 400 foot pounds. Silent. Butter smooth. Gearshift a you don't feel unless pressing on.
Plenty fast enough.
Can't touch the fuel consumption, but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
And that's entirely my point, the example above falls down as it can't compete on MPG, I'd also be interested to see the torque curves as it's the area under the curve that matters. I've not been able to find a petrol motor that's ticks all my boxes (and of course, everyone's requirements are different) so until I do, dag dag dag for me.Plenty fast enough.
Can't touch the fuel consumption, but it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make.
Strange how so many folks complain about VAG diesels, and how the lower number of cylinders makes them noisy/lumpy etc. I drive a 3 cyl VAG diesel and it's not the first time I've sat at lights thinking my engine sounds noisy, only to look round and there's a Ford or Citroen making all the noise. Problem with the power curve is learning to adapt ,especially for overtaking and keeping the revs at the right level to get maximum speed through the gears. Another problem with diesel cars. I've found is that the newer ones seem to focus on economy and emissions. But that varies between makers. e.g. I hired a 2.0l Mondeo a year back and at 70.,I'd have left it standing in 5th in mine. To get any decent acceleration at 70 , I had to change down to 4th . It sounded rough compared to mine. But for comparison, hire firm had to deliver a Jag ( can't remember the model) ,but it had the 2.0L engine ,AFAIK ex Ford and it seemed a far smoother engine after Jag had played with it.
I don't think many here would choose diesel vs petrol given a straight choice.
But a 4 cylinder diesel passat has that engine in it for a reason. If I was doing that kind of mileage to warrant one the mpg would more than make up for the sound etc. if that's the main concern (cost per mile) I'd rather have a diesel passat than whatever tiny little petrol engine they'd have to use to get the same mpg.
I must admit I don't mind driving a diesel but as soon as I moved closer to work I bought a 4 litre jeep. Just don't drive it any distance as the fuel costs are the ones I really notice.
Find it strange diesel cars can be thought of as winning them over, to me it's something that serves a purpose and does it fairly well. Really don't like the idea of large family cars having tiny turbo petrol engines if mpg is a consideration. Driving one of them full while towing is where diesel really works...
Where I don't understand diesel being successful is small city cars. Similar mpg and really not playing to the diesel strengths
But a 4 cylinder diesel passat has that engine in it for a reason. If I was doing that kind of mileage to warrant one the mpg would more than make up for the sound etc. if that's the main concern (cost per mile) I'd rather have a diesel passat than whatever tiny little petrol engine they'd have to use to get the same mpg.
I must admit I don't mind driving a diesel but as soon as I moved closer to work I bought a 4 litre jeep. Just don't drive it any distance as the fuel costs are the ones I really notice.
Find it strange diesel cars can be thought of as winning them over, to me it's something that serves a purpose and does it fairly well. Really don't like the idea of large family cars having tiny turbo petrol engines if mpg is a consideration. Driving one of them full while towing is where diesel really works...
Where I don't understand diesel being successful is small city cars. Similar mpg and really not playing to the diesel strengths
f1nn said:
I'd also be interested to see the torque curves as it's the area under the curve that matters.
It's torque at the wheels that matters. All the twist in the world doesn't mean much if you have to run long gears.I'm sure Google can locate a torque curve if required.
Edit: actually it appears that it can't. It does suggest that peak torque is 2800-4800 and I can tell you it revs out past 6k. It's a bit brisk that end of of the range.
Edited by Mr E on Saturday 18th April 22:18
f1nn said:
E65Ross said:
Straight 6 diesels are much nicer.... But they aren't as nice as straight 6 petrol.
If fuel was 10p/litre there's no way you'd choose a turbocharged 3 litre diesel over a turbocharged 3 litre petrol. It's not as smooth, in gear it's no faster etc etc...
As much as I'm with you to a degree, there is a but....If fuel was 10p/litre there's no way you'd choose a turbocharged 3 litre diesel over a turbocharged 3 litre petrol. It's not as smooth, in gear it's no faster etc etc...
I recently drove a M135I, fitted as you know with a 3.0 turbocharged straight six. Fabulous little car with an amazing engine and box combo. Once the novelty had worn off and I started to drive it how I drive a car normally, (and I'm not expecting the majority to agree with me) the torque delivery of a diesel just makes more sense to me for the type of driving I do.
I did see a motorbike in your PH garage. It does seem quite common that bikers just regard cars as white goods.
I won't be buying another diesel. My latest has only done 267k miles in 4 years, has needed to be serviced every 18k miles, the water pump sprung a leak at 218k miles, I mean only 218k miles, Mercedes should be ashamed.
I have only managed to average 52mpg over 267k miles, and it never allows me to top up the oil between services. It cruises quietly at 75mph, I even have to tell my customers it's a diesel, how dare Mercedes make a diesel that runs so quietly and economically at cruising speeds pulling over 1600 kgs, plus several suitcases and very often 5 people.
I can't understand how Mercedes have got it so wrong, I mean the DPF should have gone kaput, the fuel pump should have gone kaput, the EGR should have gone kaput, the injectors should have the black death, at least one of the turbo's should have blown up by now. I will definitely be sending an e-mail to somebody high up to express my displeasure.
Yep, definitely the last diesel I will be buying, this one will only probably get me to 500k miles or so in the next few years, then after that another 500k. It's just not good enough.
Diesel, don't you just hate them.
Oh I forgot to mention the torque
I have only managed to average 52mpg over 267k miles, and it never allows me to top up the oil between services. It cruises quietly at 75mph, I even have to tell my customers it's a diesel, how dare Mercedes make a diesel that runs so quietly and economically at cruising speeds pulling over 1600 kgs, plus several suitcases and very often 5 people.
I can't understand how Mercedes have got it so wrong, I mean the DPF should have gone kaput, the fuel pump should have gone kaput, the EGR should have gone kaput, the injectors should have the black death, at least one of the turbo's should have blown up by now. I will definitely be sending an e-mail to somebody high up to express my displeasure.
Yep, definitely the last diesel I will be buying, this one will only probably get me to 500k miles or so in the next few years, then after that another 500k. It's just not good enough.
Diesel, don't you just hate them.
Oh I forgot to mention the torque
Edited by Monkeylegend on Saturday 18th April 22:24
Mr E said:
f1nn said:
I'd also be interested to see the torque curves as it's the area under the curve that matters.
It's torque at the wheels that matters. All the twist in the world doesn't mean much if you have to run long gears.I'm sure Google can locate a torque curve if required.
Turbo Petrol vs Turbo diesel and the Petrol will have a massive amount more area under the curve while hitting peak torque earlier and holding it for far longer. As a result it can be geared lower so even if you had a diesel and a petrol with the same torque the petrol would have *more* torque on the road.
The *only* thing the Diesel does better is economy. Claiming you're buying one for any other reason (apart obviously from RobM77 who buys them for the throttle response) is just self justification.
E65Ross said:
Been on holiday this week and a friend of mine is driving, a 2.0 diesel passat, the 170bhp one. It's not the performance that's the issue but it's so brash and unrefined. The noise is awful, the power seems to drop off considerably past 4k rpm.
Start stop REALLY doesn't work well either in this car. Every time the engine is stopped or started again the whole car shakes as the engine is rough. The only other car I've experienced stop/start in is a new M6, and it works very well as it has a nice smooth petrol engine.
Still, I suppose it's cheap on fuel and monthly payments.
Not too long ago I drove a 3.0 V6 TDI Audi A6 and that wasn't TOO bad, although at low speeds it is a bit unrefined but ok on the motorway. This 4 cylinder one is brash even on the motorway.
I'm not the only one who thinks this, am I?
Firstly, you've no doubt jumped out of your petrol seven and into a four cylinder saloon. I'd say it would matter very little as to the fuel type - had it been a straight 2.0 petrol four you'd have been equally as unimpressed.Start stop REALLY doesn't work well either in this car. Every time the engine is stopped or started again the whole car shakes as the engine is rough. The only other car I've experienced stop/start in is a new M6, and it works very well as it has a nice smooth petrol engine.
Still, I suppose it's cheap on fuel and monthly payments.
Not too long ago I drove a 3.0 V6 TDI Audi A6 and that wasn't TOO bad, although at low speeds it is a bit unrefined but ok on the motorway. This 4 cylinder one is brash even on the motorway.
I'm not the only one who thinks this, am I?
Also, it does bemuse me when people complain about the power dropping off at over 4K rpm. Thats an engine characteristic of many diesels and if you're not able to quickly adapt to a different engine style thats a fault of your driving, not a fault of the car.
But other than that, you're probably not far away. Your modern repmobile 2.0 TD is going to be pretty unrefined. We'd a new 320d Lux last week while my wifes z4 was in for a repair and it was noisy. Grand when you got up a bit of speed, but it was definitely noisy.
AND there is the question about long term reliability. Much past 6 years old and you're into a risk of turbo, DPF, injector or pump failure.
BUT if you're doing big enough miles and you chose the right car, they do still make sense. I've a 2012 1.6TDI Golf and i've averaged something like 65mpg over 20,000 miles brim to brim each time. Best was 70.3. No petrol equivalent is going to come near to that.
AND the right diesel in the right car can still be very refined, smooth and fast. I've had a couple 535d's and they were just amazing, especially when remapped.
I think there was a big jump in diesel development and now theres a big jump in petrol development, but interestingly to make petrol engines more economical we're seeing all the technology being introduced that has made diesels unreliable - high pressure turbos, smaller engines, etc, etc. Is, for example the new Focus Ecoboost 1.0T really going to be reliable in the medium / long term? Time will tell...
f1nn said:
E65Ross said:
Straight 6 diesels are much nicer.... But they aren't as nice as straight 6 petrol.
If fuel was 10p/litre there's no way you'd choose a turbocharged 3 litre diesel over a turbocharged 3 litre petrol. It's not as smooth, in gear it's no faster etc etc...
As much as I'm with you to a degree, there is a but....If fuel was 10p/litre there's no way you'd choose a turbocharged 3 litre diesel over a turbocharged 3 litre petrol. It's not as smooth, in gear it's no faster etc etc...
I recently drove a M135I, fitted as you know with a 3.0 turbocharged straight six. Fabulous little car with an amazing engine and box combo. Once the novelty had worn off and I started to drive it how I drive a car normally, (and I'm not expecting the majority to agree with me) the torque delivery of a diesel just makes more sense to me for the type of driving I do.
The torque curve of the M135i engine is very much like a traditional diesel engine because it's turbocharged. It doesn't have any less low down power than the equivalent diesel.
f1nn said:
E65Ross said:
Straight 6 diesels are much nicer.... But they aren't as nice as straight 6 petrol.
If fuel was 10p/litre there's no way you'd choose a turbocharged 3 litre diesel over a turbocharged 3 litre petrol. It's not as smooth, in gear it's no faster etc etc...
As much as I'm with you to a degree, there is a but....If fuel was 10p/litre there's no way you'd choose a turbocharged 3 litre diesel over a turbocharged 3 litre petrol. It's not as smooth, in gear it's no faster etc etc...
I recently drove a M135I, fitted as you know with a 3.0 turbocharged straight six. Fabulous little car with an amazing engine and box combo. Once the novelty had worn off and I started to drive it how I drive a car normally, (and I'm not expecting the majority to agree with me) the torque delivery of a diesel just makes more sense to me for the type of driving I do.
E65Ross said:
If the gearing is set to the same road speed then the diesel has no more low down grunt at all. Unless you drive everywhere and shift gears St the same rpm no matter the car? A car which had a 10k red line isn't working hard at 4k rpm yet a diesel with a red line at 5k rpm is....
You've actually just touched on an advantage of the diesel engine that a lot of people like.You can make fairly rapid and discreet progress without drawing attention to yourself because of the low revs, handy if you're running a bit late etc.
I have a mk2 Seat Leon TDi 140. For me, it does what I need. It's not quiet, it's not really refined, but it is acceptable. I have no desire to drive everywhere at 100mph, but it's mid range acceleration ( for me ) is pretty good. It's fuel economy ( for me ) is pretty good. Why did I buy it ?? because for the money at the time, there was a choice of mine, or a 1.6 petrol both similar mileage, the petrol 1 year newer.......but my diesel was much better equipped. Cruise, climate...etc etc. The fact it was diesel wasn't the primary reason, but its mid range ability swayed it for me after a test drive.A 1.6 petrol is just completely gutless in comparison.
Next car may be a barge for wafting, as I now would like some degree of comfort........
Next car may be a barge for wafting, as I now would like some degree of comfort........
Uncle John said:
I've an Alfa Romeo 147 JTDm with the 8v 2 litre direct multi jet engine.
It's had a Celtic Tuning remap and is 190 bhp and 290 ft/lbs and quite simply flies, small car big power. In everyday driving it's just right, power when you need it.
An average of 50 mpg as well, which when doing 18k a year is well worth it.
A petrol simply could not compete.
You've got my interest! It's had a Celtic Tuning remap and is 190 bhp and 290 ft/lbs and quite simply flies, small car big power. In everyday driving it's just right, power when you need it.
An average of 50 mpg as well, which when doing 18k a year is well worth it.
A petrol simply could not compete.
I've got a Alfa 147 JTDm 16v (150bhp) that can only hit 51mpg on a run at 70mph so I'm keen to understand how you average the same mpg! What were you getting before?
I've just checked parkers and the standard 8v 120bhp engine achieved 48mpg.
I've found my 147 and others I've driven to be really poor on fuel if you drive them on anything other than a light throttle, I always drive my work car very gently because I've got other fun cars (360bhp Impreza).
My view on diesel cars are they are fine, if you're after a punchy car for cruising with cruising but they largely are not drivers cars. In some ways I actually like them and I unless I'm in the mood for my noisy and highly strung Impreza the Alfa can be a nice relaxed drive.
Edited by AntiLagGC8 on Saturday 18th April 22:57
I've got one of each: M135i and 635d and both auto. The power delivery is remarkably similar of course, better throttle response in the 6, and I'd say the 6 is possibly quicker 30-90. Mpg much better too in the 6 of course. M135 sounds better (or at least the symposer does) but then the 6 is very very quiet.
Many of the diesel naysayers clearly haven't driven an x35d/x40d.
Many of the diesel naysayers clearly haven't driven an x35d/x40d.
I drive a Golf R and a RR Sport (sometimes) the RRS is the 3.0 D Auto and suits the car perfectly, it actually pulls way more quickly than you'd expect. The Golf is DSG and is smoother through the rev range. Both cars are good but different. I prefer petrol for city driving and diesel on the motorway
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