Diesel just doesn't win me over....

[daemon]

Fastdruid said:

theboss said:

Diderot said:

those irrational haters who have never driven a X35/40d or indeed 550d and simply cannot get their heads around the fact that they drive very much the same as a petrol turbo, only with less turbo lag and better throttle response.

Are you serious?

I do love the "Diesels are great....as long as you buy one worth 40k+".

You can buy an x35d from £7K.

Conversely i do love the "i simply cannot drive a 2.0TD because v6 and v8 petrols are so much better" when the equivalent petrol variant is some asthmatic four pot that wouldnt pull you out of bed.

Edited by daemon on Wednesday 22 April 12:29

[daemon]

Devil2575 said:

Mr Tidy said:

I posted earlier in this thread, but I see comments on a couple of things I have experienced having run a BMW E46 Compact in both 320 td and now 325 ti versions.
Diesels that seem to bog down at low revs - well yes the 320 td had to be doing about 10 mph before you tried to use 2nd to avoid it stalling. The 325 ti may produce less torque but can easily pick up smoothly from 5 mph in 2nd (or 3rd if you want).
Admittedly my 123d never had that low speed issue, but that is why it had 2 turbos (and low gearing to make it seem much faster than a 120d when it probably wasn't really).
Realistic usable rev range with the diesel was 3,000 rpm whereas the 325 is more like 6,000!
I got about 46 mpg from the 320 td over 43,000 miles - the 325 ti is doing just over 31 so far but I just would not entertain another diesel whatever mileage I was doing. Less economy is a price I will gladly pay for the smoothness and the soundtrack!
And while diesels with more than 4 cylinders may sound better than those with less, they don't sound anything like as good as petrols with more than 4 cylinders!

It is worth remebering though that the 325ti isn't the petrol equivalent of the 320td. The 318i compact fills that gap.

+1

And i never really "get" the "diesels get bogged down at very low revs" - you need to adjust your driving style to bring out the strengths of the engine in the car you happen to be driving. Surprises me how many people seem incapable of doing that.

[anonymous-user]

daemon said:

+1

And i never really "get" the "diesels get bogged down at very low revs" - you need to adjust your driving style to bring out the strengths of the engine in the car you happen to be driving. Surprises me how many people seem incapable of doing that.

This. It makes as much sense as moaning that your petrol car is a slug because you change up at 2500RPM. If you can't manage the power curve of the engine then give up and get an automatic.

Diesel engines aren't there to give you an erection at the thought of driving them, they are a sensible compromise and often a very good one for a large number of people.

[AM7]

ORD said:

ZX10R NIN said:

Well they sound like this & if they go half as well as my old 4.2tdi A8 did I'd have bought one of thes instead.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWIIIyOwSak

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhqrAhzE7sE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzU7HqhkyYs

Is that supposed to sound good? A mixture of a tractor and a very airy, loose bottomed fart.

Exactly what I thought

How you can even call that a decent sound I don't know, get some AMG in the house and then you'll know what real noise is!

[Lost soul]

I like Diesels a lot I do like their power delivery , I have had D's for 7 years but have now returned to the fold and am now loving the feel/sound/response of a petrol twin turbo

Both have a place and I would not exclude one or the other

[Fastdruid]

daemon said:

Fastdruid said:

theboss said:

Diderot said:

those irrational haters who have never driven a X35/40d or indeed 550d and simply cannot get their heads around the fact that they drive very much the same as a petrol turbo, only with less turbo lag and better throttle response.

Are you serious?

I do love the "Diesels are great....as long as you buy one worth 40k+".

You can buy an x35d from £7K.

Conversely i do love the "i simply cannot drive a 2.0TD because v6 and v8 petrols are so much better" when the equivalent petrol variant is some asthmatic four pot that wouldnt pull you out of bed.

Yes and you can buy a 4.0l petrol v8 from <1k. Running / fixing costs are still the same as when it's new though.

And no. I'd rather a slow 1.6 petrol than a 2.0d. Hell if on anything other than a motorway I'd rather a 1l micra than a 318d. It's slow as hell but it's still way better to drive, more tractable and with less gearchanges required.

My beef with diesel tbh isn't that they's crap so much that you cannot avoid them.

I'd be happy never ever to touch another diesel but I can't as you cannot *not* have one as hire cars, it's so hard to buy a petrol as all the sales were diesels etc etc.

I begged enterprise last time I had a courtesy car for anything that wasn't diesel. I got a diesel Rav4. It was terrible. So much lag before the boost threshold it was unfunny. Every junction was either crawl out foot pressed to the floor with nothing happening for 5-10yards before it exploded in a lot of noise or put your foot down 5-10s before you wanted to move and slip the clutch.

Burn them, burn them all and then nuke them from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

[Baryonyx]

Welshbeef said:

What range do you get?
Would filling up once a year be great ? I'd say so.
Who actually likes filling up?

I get about 300-odd miles to a tank of petrol. Funnily enough, my motorbike will go almost as far on 12 litres (and is more fun than the car). On neither do I feel like I spend much time at a petrol pump. Whilst there are some diesels I like, diesel drivers will be the first to take up electric, automated cars in place of something you actually drive. Can't change gear? Don't like using the throttle? Don't like filling it with fuel? Perfect candidates for the Google Car.


In terms of diesels I do actually like, I've been well impressed with a 123d coupe recently. The Coupe mitigates the stupid bowling shoe look of the standard 1 Series shape. It's a fast little car, and certainly feels faster than the circa 200bhp figures suggest. Uncannily for a diesel, it feels like it has a lot of flex in it's power delivery; it'll pick up and go from down low but it doesn't rapidly tail off like most diesels do. Make no mistake though, the party is over pretty quickly though, and it's time for another low gear. For making fuss free progress, it's a winner but even the owner admits it's not exactly thrilling - it doesn't sing, it doesn't feel vivacious and beg you to try harder like the 135i would, it just quietly piles on the speed in a very convincing fashion. It's refined enough not to be irritating at a normal pace but gets pretty boomy upwards of 85mph.


Which is to say, a very nice car in many ways, but not something that is really going to appear in a driver's dreams...

[Digitalize]

I'd much rather own a 320D than a 320i (and do)

I have no issue with and like diesels. It's mainly the torque. I imagine a big petrol engine would give the same feel though and be much more fun to drive. But for an effortless every day car. A diesel with an auto box please.

[50 not out]

I have an A6 3.0 estate quattro sportline, I'm very happy with the sound and the acceleration.It looks likes a big estate car but disposes of boy racers easily

[Stenn]

Fastdruid said:

Hell if on anything other than a motorway I'd rather a 1l micra than a 318d. It's slow as hell but it's still way better to drive, more tractable and with less gearchanges required.

I completely agree. At the moment I've got an E90 320d and an old 1.0 Kia Picanto I'm selling for my father in law - the Picanto is more enjoyable to drive about town, even it's terrible weedy little engine feels so much more flexible and quieter.

The 320d is fine for my 90 mile a day motorway commute but I wouldn't go near one if it wasn't for that. I don't understand all the people who drive about 6k miles a year around town and do it in a 4 pot diesel. Each to their own though!

Edited by Stenn on Wednesday 22 April 13:29

[stavers]

Baryonyx said:

Which is to say, a very nice car in many ways, but not something that is really going to appear in a driver's dreams...

I think this here is the perfect quote for this thread.
I drive a C5 with a twin-turbo 2.2 diesel lump in it. The in-gear grunt is excellent and it revs out to over 4k with no issues and feels OK doing it. But all the time you have a massive lump of cast iron sat in between the front wheels and there's nothing that appeals to me.

I have the C5 as I am doing about 20-25k a year with regular trips to Scotland. However my 1.2 Fiat Punto that I had before this car was much more fun to drive and I did sometimes have a smile on my face as it was scrabbling round corners doing about 45! With my mileage now coming back down I really want to go back to a petrol car as it is so much nicer to drive. Even my wife's 1.0l Ecobbost Fiesta is more 'engaging' because of the engine alone.

The only diesel I have ever driven that made me smile a little bit was a 4.4 TDV8 Range Rover - it did sound like a V8 and the torque was just stupid!

But at the end of the day it's all down to individuals.

[supersingle]

daemon said:

+1

And i never really "get" the "diesels get bogged down at very low revs" - you need to adjust your driving style to bring out the strengths of the engine in the car you happen to be driving. Surprises me how many people seem incapable of doing that.

So all we need to do is slip the clutch like mad to get off the line then constantly change gear to stay in the minuscule poerrband...

...or buy a petrol...

[daemon]

supersingle said:

daemon said:

+1

And i never really "get" the "diesels get bogged down at very low revs" - you need to adjust your driving style to bring out the strengths of the engine in the car you happen to be driving. Surprises me how many people seem incapable of doing that.

So all we need to do is slip the clutch like mad to get off the line then constantly change gear to stay in the minuscule poerrband...

...or buy a petrol...

Yeah thats it - its the only way to drive a diesel. Slipping the clutch like mad. Its diesel car owners big secret. You've rumbled us.

Alternatively, maybe you're a naff driver?

[philmots]

Diderot said:

What you mean like this? http://youtu.be/Ma-KBPcwRlc

I saw that video before I posted.. that went to 5500, not 5750 and certainly not 6000!

It's also arguably the pinacle of diesel engine development, with 3 turbos and a price tag to suit.

Welshy talks about these rev limits like they're common place, even the new generation x35d isn't breaking 5000..

Thanks for the video link though, it reminded me how bad a noise diesels make, my old 335d was quite effective but dull and soulless. I'm not sure why people even try to compare them to a petrol engine. Never again for me!

[Fastdruid]

daemon said:

supersingle said:

daemon said:

+1

And i never really "get" the "diesels get bogged down at very low revs" - you need to adjust your driving style to bring out the strengths of the engine in the car you happen to be driving. Surprises me how many people seem incapable of doing that.

So all we need to do is slip the clutch like mad to get off the line then constantly change gear to stay in the minuscule poerrband...

...or buy a petrol...

Yeah thats it - its the only way to drive a diesel. Slipping the clutch like mad. Its diesel car owners big secret. You've rumbled us.

Alternatively, maybe you're a naff driver?

Ah that's it.

Not liking the total lack of any go below 1700rpm requiring slipping the clutch to make any kind of start other than one that makes continental drift seem fast and having to waggle the gearstick like you're trying to row the car means you're a naff driver. Gotcha.

[daemon]

Fastdruid said:

Ah that's it.

Not liking the total lack of any go below 1700rpm requiring slipping the clutch to make any kind of start other than one that makes continental drift seem fast and having to waggle the gearstick like you're trying to row the car means you're a naff driver. Gotcha.

Yes, and any sort of half assed driver will be able to drive to the abilities of the car.

Never, genuinely never had to slip the clutch on a diesel car to make smooth and / or fast progress away from a junction or otherwise.

Dont particularly "love" diesels, just dont get the irrational hatred.

[supersingle]

daemon said:

supersingle said:

daemon said:

+1

And i never really "get" the "diesels get bogged down at very low revs" - you need to adjust your driving style to bring out the strengths of the engine in the car you happen to be driving. Surprises me how many people seem incapable of doing that.

So all we need to do is slip the clutch like mad to get off the line then constantly change gear to stay in the minuscule poerrband...

...or buy a petrol...

Yeah thats it - its the only way to drive a diesel. Slipping the clutch like mad. Its diesel car owners big secret. You've rumbled us.

Alternatively, maybe you're a naff driver?

I'm sure I am a naff driver, but I'm a naff driver with mechanical sympathy and I don't like slipping the clutch too much so I tend to use the continental drift getaway method. That is until the MASSIVE torque arrives, when you won't see which way I've gone for the huge crowd of black smoke.

[zeppelin101]

philmots said:

I saw that video before I posted.. that went to 5500, not 5750 and certainly not 6000!

It's also arguably the pinacle of diesel engine development, with 3 turbos and a price tag to suit.

Welshy talks about these rev limits like they're common place, even the new generation x35d isn't breaking 5000..

Thanks for the video link though, it reminded me how bad a noise diesels make, my old 335d was quite effective but dull and soulless. I'm not sure why people even try to compare them to a petrol engine. Never again for me!

I don't know what the obsession in this thread with some posters trying to make out that there are "revvy" diesels out there. They are "low" revving at ~5000 or so because of how chunky the bottom end has to be to deal with the forces involved, it's not a hard concept to understand. Diesel fanatics will do anything to make the engines sound better than petrols.

Mind you, the reverse is also true.

Both have their merits, why keep arguing about which is "better"?

[Fastdruid]

zeppelin101 said:

I don't know what the obsession in this thread with some posters trying to make out that there are "revvy" diesels out there. They are "low" revving at ~5000 or so because of how chunky the bottom end has to be to deal with the forces involved.

Actually its not. It's the time to get the fuel in and the ignition time. There is pretty much a hard limit of about 6k (I think they've got up to something like 6.5k in developmental engines).

Spark injection on the other hand because they can ignite well before TDC are much less limited and normally ultimately limited by material strength. Although of course in practise they tend to be limited by injector duty time, maximum air flow etc.

[daemon]

zeppelin101 said:

I don't know what the obsession in this thread with some posters trying to make out that there are "revvy" diesels out there. They are "low" revving at ~5000 or so because of how chunky the bottom end has to be to deal with the forces involved, it's not a hard concept to understand. Diesel fanatics will do anything to make the engines sound better than petrols.

Mind you, the reverse is also true.

Both have their merits, why keep arguing about which is "better"?

I personally dont think diesels are "revvy", however i do think they're better than the "waifer thin power bands" that are sometime portrayed on threads like this.

Also, i dont think diesels are better, I just tend to push back when i see age old stereotypes resurfacing.

And also if you look at these threads, nobody really argues that diesels are "better", just defends them when people say they are really st - because they're not.

I know my Golf 1.6TDI in the grand scheme of things isnt going to set the world on fire. However a lot of the diesel kickers still seem to pick on four pot diesels and then say "oh oh they dont sound or drive as good as a good v6 or v8 petrol" uh huh. thats right - they dont. BUT the equivalent petrol engine to mine is the 1.2TSI, not some v6 lump. And TBH i did consider the petrol variant but the diesel in my situation still does an easy 20mpg more, and that swung it for me. I didnt see any "advantage" that the petrol variant would offer me that would negate that diesel advantage. It was bought to do a job and it does that job better than the petrol variant.

And really for 90% of applications, the comparable diesel is some mundane four pot petrol lump.

Now, personally, i get very wary of diesels over about 6 years old. They went through a bad patch 05 -> 08 with the intro of DPFs and DMFs which in turn resulted in increased knackered EGR valves and turbos in that order and i still think that mid life onwards diesels could still be trouble. Still to be convinced.

Also, personally, i dont think anyone should be driving a diesel if they're doing less than 15,000 miles per year. Maybe even 18K or 20K. UNLESS you're very passionate about torque and things like that, and really i'm not that bothered. Too much risk of something clogging up for my liking.

I'm not a "must drive diesels above all cost" person, however i can be objective about the fuel type and weigh up the merits of each when i'm buying a car.

Edited by daemon on Wednesday 22 April 15:14