Diesel just doesn't win me over....
Discussion
daemon said:
And TBH i did consider the petrol variant but the diesel in my situation still does an easy 20mpg more, and that swung it for me. I didnt see any "advantage" that the petrol variant would offer me that would negate that diesel advantage. It was bought to do a job and it does that job better than the petrol variant.
This is interesting. Did you do a full cost analysis?A work colleague was recently looking at getting an 18 month old Passat and he was in two minds between the 1.8T petrol and the 2.0 diesel. I did a cost analysis and taking in to account the purchase price difference, the mileage he did, the tax, insurance etc. it took him 5 years to save ~300 if he bought the diesel. Now his mileage was on the borderline of what I think is the 'sensible' mileage for diesel (he was doing about 12k a year) so bigger mileage would obviously change this.
daemon said:
Now, personally, i get very wary of diesels over about 6 years old. They went through a bad patch 05 -> 08 with the intro of DPFs and DMFs which in turn resulted in increased knackered EGR valves and turbos in that order and i still think that mid life onwards diesels could still be trouble. Still to be convinced.
& then there is this.Short runs around town kill DPFs & DMFs & the EGRs get all gummed up. AFAIK it doesn't really matter what the car is, if it has a DMF it will need replacing anytime from about 80k miles onwards. Everyone I know that has a modern high mileage diesel has had to get the DMF (and clutch and often starter motor) replaced - been on BMWs, Fords, Vauxhalls, VWs. My car (Citroen) has 122k on it and I am just waiting for the DMF time bomb to erupt!
It has already required a new EGR system and the DPF was just starting to play up as well.
Not to say that petrol cars are free from this. Most newer petrol cars have DMFs which are just as prone to failure as the diesels. I've been looking at Alfa 159 V6s, Saab 2.8 V6T and Vauxhall 2.8 V6T and having seen they all have DMFs I am greatly put off them!
Yeah i don't really get the big deal over them. I think people buy them under the impression that no matter how they are driven they will always do better MPG than the equivalent petrol so they can get away with having a bigger engine with more power. Couldn't be further from the truth tbh.
To me they kinda serve a purpose and that's it. They always feel faster than they actually are due to all the low down torque. My mate used to have a Passat CC 2.0 TDI 170 DSG (quite a mouthful) which i did have a drive of. Was a lovely motor and really shoved you back in your seat as soon and you plonked the fast pedal down hard. Coupled with that gearbox it was a great combination. Problem was as soon as you get past the first gear change from a standstill you just kinda felt nothing. No more power, no more feeling of speed. Didn't feel like you were going anywhere. Sure it was only averaging around the 30 MPG mark with combined driving so he got shut for a 1.6 tdi Golf a few months ago.
Saying that my dad has an 09 plate 535D M Sport Touring with a few AC Schnitzer trinkets and remapped to around 360 BHP and it's an absolute rocket. Not much can keep up with him and the noise it makes for a diesel sounds terrific. The gearbox is also phenomenal and he's had a bit of fun getting the back end out with it being an estate and RWD. He would have gone for an M5 but at the time he was doing well over 20k per year with work trips alone. AS far as he's concerned hes got the best of both worlds and averages well over 40 MPG.
So swings and roundabouts really
To me they kinda serve a purpose and that's it. They always feel faster than they actually are due to all the low down torque. My mate used to have a Passat CC 2.0 TDI 170 DSG (quite a mouthful) which i did have a drive of. Was a lovely motor and really shoved you back in your seat as soon and you plonked the fast pedal down hard. Coupled with that gearbox it was a great combination. Problem was as soon as you get past the first gear change from a standstill you just kinda felt nothing. No more power, no more feeling of speed. Didn't feel like you were going anywhere. Sure it was only averaging around the 30 MPG mark with combined driving so he got shut for a 1.6 tdi Golf a few months ago.
Saying that my dad has an 09 plate 535D M Sport Touring with a few AC Schnitzer trinkets and remapped to around 360 BHP and it's an absolute rocket. Not much can keep up with him and the noise it makes for a diesel sounds terrific. The gearbox is also phenomenal and he's had a bit of fun getting the back end out with it being an estate and RWD. He would have gone for an M5 but at the time he was doing well over 20k per year with work trips alone. AS far as he's concerned hes got the best of both worlds and averages well over 40 MPG.
So swings and roundabouts really
dme123 said:
daemon said:
+1
And i never really "get" the "diesels get bogged down at very low revs" - you need to adjust your driving style to bring out the strengths of the engine in the car you happen to be driving. Surprises me how many people seem incapable of doing that.
This. It makes as much sense as moaning that your petrol car is a slug because you change up at 2500RPM. If you can't manage the power curve of the engine then give up and get an automatic.And i never really "get" the "diesels get bogged down at very low revs" - you need to adjust your driving style to bring out the strengths of the engine in the car you happen to be driving. Surprises me how many people seem incapable of doing that.
Diesel engines aren't there to give you an erection at the thought of driving them, they are a sensible compromise and often a very good one for a large number of people.
I also think that there is a lot of comparison of 4 pot diesels with big capacity petrol engines, which in terms of refinement and outright performance is never going to be a fair fight. 4 pot diesels are not an alternative to a straight 6 or a V8, they are an alternative to a 4 pot petrol.
stavers said:
This is interesting. Did you do a full cost analysis?
A work colleague was recently looking at getting an 18 month old Passat and he was in two minds between the 1.8T petrol and the 2.0 diesel. I did a cost analysis and taking in to account the purchase price difference, the mileage he did, the tax, insurance etc. it took him 5 years to save ~300 if he bought the diesel. Now his mileage was on the borderline of what I think is the 'sensible' mileage for diesel (he was doing about 12k a year) so bigger mileage would obviously change this.
Yes. I was doing 25,000 a year at the time and the volume of diesels available compared to the 1.2TSI petrol variant meant i was getting a diesel variant for pretty much the same price as the petrol variant.A work colleague was recently looking at getting an 18 month old Passat and he was in two minds between the 1.8T petrol and the 2.0 diesel. I did a cost analysis and taking in to account the purchase price difference, the mileage he did, the tax, insurance etc. it took him 5 years to save ~300 if he bought the diesel. Now his mileage was on the borderline of what I think is the 'sensible' mileage for diesel (he was doing about 12k a year) so bigger mileage would obviously change this.
At that time in Aug 2013 we got an Oct 2012 Golf mk6 1.6 TDI S 5 Door with metallic paint for £12,400 with 13K miles from a main VW dealer.
daemon said:
stavers said:
This is interesting. Did you do a full cost analysis?
A work colleague was recently looking at getting an 18 month old Passat and he was in two minds between the 1.8T petrol and the 2.0 diesel. I did a cost analysis and taking in to account the purchase price difference, the mileage he did, the tax, insurance etc. it took him 5 years to save ~300 if he bought the diesel. Now his mileage was on the borderline of what I think is the 'sensible' mileage for diesel (he was doing about 12k a year) so bigger mileage would obviously change this.
Yes. I was doing 25,000 a year at the time and the volume of diesels available compared to the 1.2TSI petrol variant meant i was getting a diesel variant for pretty much the same price as the petrol variant.A work colleague was recently looking at getting an 18 month old Passat and he was in two minds between the 1.8T petrol and the 2.0 diesel. I did a cost analysis and taking in to account the purchase price difference, the mileage he did, the tax, insurance etc. it took him 5 years to save ~300 if he bought the diesel. Now his mileage was on the borderline of what I think is the 'sensible' mileage for diesel (he was doing about 12k a year) so bigger mileage would obviously change this.
At that time in Aug 2013 we got an Oct 2012 Golf mk6 1.6 TDI S 5 Door with metallic paint for £12,400 with 13K miles from a main VW dealer.
I just don't this price comparison thing. its nearly always based on the purchase price of a petrol being cheaper than a diesel. what if its the same/close? Insurance, the same, tax close, fuel price, close , mpg big difference.
All the moaning....."I don't get it" etc is from petrol car owners. If you don't like/want a diesel etc, then stop fecking whingeing and get on with yer life.
All the moaning....."I don't get it" etc is from petrol car owners. If you don't like/want a diesel etc, then stop fecking whingeing and get on with yer life.
Devil2575 said:
The other thing to remember is that diesels are worth more when you come to sell them. For certains makes/models petrols are a resale disaster.
Yes, particularly high mileage petrol cars. People can get their head around buying a high miles diesel car, but high miles petrol can be much harder to sell.
AClownsPocket said:
I have been given a diesel today while my Golf is being repaired. Its some Ecoflex thing, really underpowered and sounds quite agricultural.
I can understand people buying them for the economy, but it is a dire car. Its not selling me on diesel (despite my mate's best efforts
)
If you've jumped out of a mk7 GTI and into some Vauxhall not-so-state-of-the-art loan car, its not really a surprise you're not impressed.I can understand people buying them for the economy, but it is a dire car. Its not selling me on diesel (despite my mate's best efforts
)Is it an Astra or Insignia?
daemon said:
Devil2575 said:
The other thing to remember is that diesels are worth more when you come to sell them. For certains makes/models petrols are a resale disaster.
Yes, particularly high mileage petrol cars. People can get their head around buying a high miles diesel car, but high miles petrol can be much harder to sell.Older diesels, with less technologies, are certainly longer lived than their petrol counterparts. But not so sure about that today...
philmots said:
Diderot said:
What you mean like this? http://youtu.be/Ma-KBPcwRlc
I saw that video before I posted.. that went to 5500, not 5750 and certainly not 6000!It's also arguably the pinacle of diesel engine development, with 3 turbos and a price tag to suit.
Welshy talks about these rev limits like they're common place, even the new generation x35d isn't breaking 5000..
Thanks for the video link though, it reminded me how bad a noise diesels make, my old 335d was quite effective but dull and soulless. I'm not sure why people even try to compare them to a petrol engine. Never again for me!
philmots said:
Welshbeef said:
Have you actually looked at the linked I posted? Clearly not as all of those diesels have peak power well over 4k revs in fact 4,750rpm with rev limits of 5,750-6,000rpm.
I don't know of any diesel with peak power @ 2.5k revs. Was that motor boating?
Ok.. I'll bite here.. Show me a video of one of these diesels you're on about reaching a (I'll make it a bit easier for you) 5750 rev limit?I don't know of any diesel with peak power @ 2.5k revs. Was that motor boating?
Didn't think you could.
Fastdruid said:
daemon said:
Fastdruid said:
theboss said:
Diderot said:
those irrational haters who have never driven a X35/40d or indeed 550d and simply cannot get their heads around the fact that they drive very much the same as a petrol turbo, only with less turbo lag and better throttle response.
Are you serious? 
Conversely i do love the "i simply cannot drive a 2.0TD because v6 and v8 petrols are so much better" when the equivalent petrol variant is some asthmatic four pot that wouldnt pull you out of bed.
And no. I'd rather a slow 1.6 petrol than a 2.0d. Hell if on anything other than a motorway I'd rather a 1l micra than a 318d. It's slow as hell but it's still way better to drive, more tractable and with less gearchanges required.
My beef with diesel tbh isn't that they's crap so much that you cannot avoid them.
I'd be happy never ever to touch another diesel but I can't as you cannot *not* have one as hire cars, it's so hard to buy a petrol as all the sales were diesels etc etc.
I begged enterprise last time I had a courtesy car for anything that wasn't diesel. I got a diesel Rav4. It was terrible. So much lag before the boost threshold it was unfunny. Every junction was either crawl out foot pressed to the floor with nothing happening for 5-10yards before it exploded in a lot of noise or put your foot down 5-10s before you wanted to move and slip the clutch.
Burn them, burn them all and then nuke them from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=V6lpBM2-vJ0
Spirited 0-100mph time which also highlights the utter lack of any accelerate change gear wait accelerate (as in sloppy slow changes)
Spirited 0-100mph time which also highlights the utter lack of any accelerate change gear wait accelerate (as in sloppy slow changes)
Up to 385bhp for the x35d just from remapping imagine IF you fitted bigger turbo intercollegiate charge cooled etc 500bhp oh yes.
http://www.chipexpress.com/products/4418/
http://www.chipexpress.com/products/4418/
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