Diesel just doesn't win me over....
Discussion
ORD said:
Mentalist 
It's arguable on a lot of 4 cyl petrols whether the engine is better suited to an auto. The 328i is probably better suited to an auto, for example.
I would always want a manual for an NA petrol engine.
You may well be the only man in the world who prefers a manual for a diesel. If money were no object, it would be 100 % auto for things like the 320d.
4cyl engines just don't work with auto's and never have IMO. I've always found them to be verging on ridiculous to drive.It's arguable on a lot of 4 cyl petrols whether the engine is better suited to an auto. The 328i is probably better suited to an auto, for example.
I would always want a manual for an NA petrol engine.
You may well be the only man in the world who prefers a manual for a diesel. If money were no object, it would be 100 % auto for things like the 320d.
I've driven many over the years from Puntos, Micras, Escorts, with CVT's. Saabs, Corsas, Citroens with semi-automatics. Astras, Vectras, Mondeos, 318's with traditional autos plus plenty more I can't think of right now and I can confidently say without exception they've all been utter turds due to the gearbox.
There's a reason why hardly any were ever specced from new, it's because they were s
t so come re-sell time no one wanted them!Serious question, have you driven many 4cyl autos? because I'm really struggling with this one
BrownBottle said:
4cyl engines just don't work with auto's and never have IMO. I've always found them to be verging on ridiculous to drive.
I've driven many over the years from Puntos, Micras, Escorts, with CVT's. Saabs, Corsas, Citroens with semi-automatics. Astras, Vectras, Mondeos, 318's with traditional autos plus plenty more I can't think of right now and I can confidently say without exception they've all been utter turds due to the gearbox.
There's a reason why hardly any were ever specced from new, it's because they were st so come re-sell time no one wanted them!
Serious question, have you driven many 4cyl autos? because I'm really struggling with this one
But are you talking slush boxes from back in the day or the current ZF boxes and their ilk? Massive difference - an engine with a small power band (any 4 cyl diesel) really benefits from having lots of ratios. It also deals with the problem of having to change down to 1st all the bloody time in traffic! Annoying as hell in a manual, but the auto box does it seemlessly.I've driven many over the years from Puntos, Micras, Escorts, with CVT's. Saabs, Corsas, Citroens with semi-automatics. Astras, Vectras, Mondeos, 318's with traditional autos plus plenty more I can't think of right now and I can confidently say without exception they've all been utter turds due to the gearbox.
There's a reason why hardly any were ever specced from new, it's because they were s
t so come re-sell time no one wanted them!Serious question, have you driven many 4cyl autos? because I'm really struggling with this one
I have driven the 320d in auto, Merc c-class in auto (petrol and diesel) and I think a couple of other diesel autos (hire cars) but I have blocked out the memories! I have only ever driven a couple of diesel manuals, and it was soul destroying having to change gear so bloody often - a good auto box just shuffles around without you even noticing.
ORD said:
I have only ever driven a couple of diesel manuals, and it was soul destroying having to change gear so bloody often
Genuinely - you're driving them wrong.If anything i'd say i change gears less often in a diesel manual than in a petrol manual - given in a petrol you normally have to "drop down" a gear to find the power band in normal driving.
ORD said:
But are you talking slush boxes from back in the day or the current ZF boxes and their ilk? Massive difference - an engine with a small power band (any 4 cyl diesel) really benefits from having lots of ratios. It also deals with the problem of having to change down to 1st all the bloody time in traffic! Annoying as hell in a manual, but the auto box does it seemlessly.
I have driven the 320d in auto, Merc c-class in auto (petrol and diesel) and I think a couple of other diesel autos (hire cars) but I have blocked out the memories! I have only ever driven a couple of diesel manuals, and it was soul destroying having to change gear so bloody often - a good auto box just shuffles around without you even noticing.
Where Mercs are concered, I'd rather say the auto is soul destroying if you enjoy driving. Its always in the wrong gear and completly nullifies the sporty character of the C. Nearly all of their diesels from the 220 on up benefit from the 6 speed manual, if you enjoy changing gear.I have driven the 320d in auto, Merc c-class in auto (petrol and diesel) and I think a couple of other diesel autos (hire cars) but I have blocked out the memories! I have only ever driven a couple of diesel manuals, and it was soul destroying having to change gear so bloody often - a good auto box just shuffles around without you even noticing.
daemon said:
Genuinely - you're driving them wrong.
If anything i'd say i change gears less often in a diesel manual than in a petrol manual - given in a petrol you normally have to "drop down" a gear to find the power band in normal driving.
I'll give you an example - town driving in stop-start traffic: 2nd gear in a petrol car with any power is good from little more than a crawl up to 30mph without even stressing the engine. In a diesel car, I would change down to 1st, then to 2nd and then to 3rd in the same circumstance. If anything i'd say i change gears less often in a diesel manual than in a petrol manual - given in a petrol you normally have to "drop down" a gear to find the power band in normal driving.
Driving down a twisty country road - quite happy to leave a 320i (for example) in 3rd for minutes on end; a 320d would want to be cycling between 3rd, 4th and 5th to retain the same responsiveness and avoid coarse engine noise, etc. There is a lot to be said for a very refined, re-happy petrol engine when it comes to manual gear changes - it gives you lots of options.
If by "normal" driving, you mean cruising along on a motorway or A-road, I agree that there will be fewer gear changes in a diesel (as it will accelerate happily in its cruising gear or, more realistically, the gear 1 below that, which is where I would keep it on most A roads).
ORD said:
daemon said:
Genuinely - you're driving them wrong.
If anything i'd say i change gears less often in a diesel manual than in a petrol manual - given in a petrol you normally have to "drop down" a gear to find the power band in normal driving.
I'll give you an example - town driving in stop-start traffic: 2nd gear in a petrol car with any power is good from little more than a crawl up to 30mph without even stressing the engine. In a diesel car, I would change down to 1st, then to 2nd and then to 3rd in the same circumstance. If anything i'd say i change gears less often in a diesel manual than in a petrol manual - given in a petrol you normally have to "drop down" a gear to find the power band in normal driving.
Roundabouts are the ones that do my head in.
Petrol car: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate on. No gear change required.
Diesel car version 1: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accel....Er hold on...still waiting....full throttle now....still no acceleration yet...do I change down or wait for it to stagger up to the boost threshold....oh and finally there is.
Diesel car version 2: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accel....Er hold on...f
k I've dropped below 1700rpm, change down to get past boost threshold, near immediate gear change back up again. Diesel car version 2: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, change to 1st. Engine now revving it's tits off. Check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate and immediately back into 2nd etc.
ORD said:
I'll give you an example - town driving in stop-start traffic: 2nd gear in a petrol car with any power is good from little more than a crawl up to 30mph without even stressing the engine. In a diesel car, I would change down to 1st, then to 2nd and then to 3rd in the same circumstance.
Stop start driving round town you dont need "power". You dont need to take off like Colin McCrae. You'd be very unlikely to need to move into 3rd in a diesel car in stop start town driving and likewise its unlikely you'll need first.ORD said:
Driving down a twisty country road - quite happy to leave a 320i (for example) in 3rd for minutes on end; a 320d would want to be cycling between 3rd, 4th and 5th to retain the same responsiveness and avoid coarse engine noise, etc. There is a lot to be said for a very refined, re-happy petrol engine when it comes to manual gear changes - it gives you lots of options.
Twisty country road in a diesel, probably third and fourth gear. Would be very surprised if you're on peak power by staying in third in a 320i for "minutes at a time" - we've a SDrive20i z4 so i know that engine very well.
So in reality you're using 2 gears in the petrol and two gears in the diesel.
ORD said:
If by "normal" driving, you mean cruising along on a motorway or A-road, I agree that there will be fewer gear changes in a diesel (as it will accelerate happily in its cruising gear or, more realistically, the gear 1 below that, which is where I would keep it on most A roads).
Yup. So there we go. Less changes round town, the same amount of changes on the twisties and we're both in agreement that less gear changes in normal driving (which is probably what we all do 90% of the time)Fastdruid said:
Roundabouts are the ones that do my head in.
Petrol car: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate on. No gear change required.
Diesel car version 1: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accel....Er hold on...still waiting....full throttle now....still no acceleration yet...do I change down or wait for it to stagger up to the boost threshold....oh and finally there is.
If you're in second gear at all in a diesel you would have to assume you're at at least 1500 revs, so you're coming onto power on the turbo. If you're letting the revs drop to tickover, then you're driving it wrong.Petrol car: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate on. No gear change required.
Diesel car version 1: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accel....Er hold on...still waiting....full throttle now....still no acceleration yet...do I change down or wait for it to stagger up to the boost threshold....oh and finally there is.
Fastdruid said:
Diesel car version 2: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accel....Er hold on...fk I've dropped below 1700rpm, change down to get past boost threshold, near immediate gear change back up again.
Diesel car version 2: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, change to 1st. Engine now revving it's tits off. Check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate and immediately back into 2nd etc.
Genuinely - poor driving and / or poor grasp of driving the engine to its strengths. k I've dropped below 1700rpm, change down to get past boost threshold, near immediate gear change back up again. Diesel car version 2: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, change to 1st. Engine now revving it's tits off. Check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate and immediately back into 2nd etc.
I could drive my humble 1.6 golf diesel the length of the country with you in the passenger seat and i'd NEVER have the problems you describe.
All you've really said is "diesels dont respond how i expect them to therefore they must be s
t"Edited by daemon on Friday 24th April 10:01
ORD said:
I'll give you an example - town driving in stop-start traffic: 2nd gear in a petrol car with any power is good from little more than a crawl up to 30mph without even stressing the engine. In a diesel car, I would change down to 1st, then to 2nd and then to 3rd in the same circumstance.
Can't say I find that. This week I have been driving some stupid Honda VTEC revvy thing and it is a complete pain in the whatsit around town. OK hammering it down an empty B-road but a useless car for 95% of UK driving nowdays. Give me a Volvo D5 any day of the week for town driving by comparison.Also, if you do hold it in 2nd up to 30mph it is revving far too high and disturbes TMS and does about 5mpg.
E65Ross said:
Been on holiday this week and a friend of mine is driving, a 2.0 diesel passat, the 170bhp one. It's not the performance that's the issue but it's so brash and unrefined. The noise is awful, the power seems to drop off considerably past 4k rpm.
Start stop REALLY doesn't work well either in this car. Every time the engine is stopped or started again the whole car shakes as the engine is rough. The only other car I've experienced stop/start in is a new M6, and it works very well as it has a nice smooth petrol engine.
Still, I suppose it's cheap on fuel and monthly payments.
Not too long ago I drove a 3.0 V6 TDI Audi A6 and that wasn't TOO bad, although at low speeds it is a bit unrefined but ok on the motorway. This 4 cylinder one is brash even on the motorway.
I'm not the only one who thinks this, am I?
When you're used to a 4.5l BMW V8, not many engines aren't going to feel a bit unrefined and generally rubbish - petrol or diesel Start stop REALLY doesn't work well either in this car. Every time the engine is stopped or started again the whole car shakes as the engine is rough. The only other car I've experienced stop/start in is a new M6, and it works very well as it has a nice smooth petrol engine.
Still, I suppose it's cheap on fuel and monthly payments.
Not too long ago I drove a 3.0 V6 TDI Audi A6 and that wasn't TOO bad, although at low speeds it is a bit unrefined but ok on the motorway. This 4 cylinder one is brash even on the motorway.
I'm not the only one who thinks this, am I?
The complexity and ability to throw up ridiculous bills generally makes most newer diesels pointless secondhand for me. Sod running a twin turbo direct injection Audi out of warranty. They make a good excuse for man maths/V8's though
mikal83 said:
Matt UK said:
Diesel and auto are fine for 'transport', sometimes very good in this role.
But petrol is the fuel of choice for 'driving'.
You need to take a bus, drive/transport.......lmaoBut petrol is the fuel of choice for 'driving'.
Everyday I transport myself to and from my office using a section of motorway. I also transport children from place to place. I also, on occasion need to transport stuff.
When I want to enjoy driving, I'll take a different car. I'll get up early in the summer and enjoy empty roads, I'll normally do a few track days with friends during the year and once in a while a trip to the 'ring.
My transport car is not a car I'll drive for fun. And my driving car is rubbish at transporting stuff (and even people...)
Why would a bus be a better option for me in either scenario?
(BTW, I happen to use petrol for both applications right now, but I've used diesel daily drivers and my point still stands)
Fastdruid said:
Exactly this.
Roundabouts are the ones that do my head in.
Petrol car: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate on. No gear change required.
Diesel car version 1: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accel....Er hold on...still waiting....full throttle now....still no acceleration yet...do I change down or wait for it to stagger up to the boost threshold....oh and finally there is.
Diesel car version 2: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accel....Er hold on...fk I've dropped below 1700rpm, change down to get past boost threshold, near immediate gear change back up again.
Diesel car version 2: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, change to 1st. Engine now revving it's tits off. Check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate and immediately back into 2nd etc.
Was this car not in good serviceable order sounds like an electrical fault. Roundabouts are the ones that do my head in.
Petrol car: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate on. No gear change required.
Diesel car version 1: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accel....Er hold on...still waiting....full throttle now....still no acceleration yet...do I change down or wait for it to stagger up to the boost threshold....oh and finally there is.
Diesel car version 2: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accel....Er hold on...f
k I've dropped below 1700rpm, change down to get past boost threshold, near immediate gear change back up again. Diesel car version 2: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, change to 1st. Engine now revving it's tits off. Check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate and immediately back into 2nd etc.
Anyway in all my time I've never experienced this issue. Note ALL auto diesels start off from standstill in 2nd gear it only ever starts in 1st if you select sport mode.
You should really drive sequential turbo diesels like the 123d/125d and the x35d and M550d there is no lag your instantly on it.
Lastly in my 535d if in manual tiptronic mode say I bury the throttle at 1,250rpm it goes then gets faster then gets much faster then f
k me hold on time to the limiter then move on. Fastdruid said:
daemon said:
Genuinely - poor driving and / or poor grasp of driving the engine to its strengths.
Make your mind up.Previous post "you never need 1st" next post "poor driving because you need first".
Exactly
"You never need first" - if you're driving it correctly
"poor driving because you need first" - because you're driving it incorrectly.
Simples.
Matt UK said:
Diesel and auto are fine for 'transport', sometimes very good in this role.
But petrol is the fuel of choice for 'driving'.
I totally agree. I've always said petrol for F1, toys and lawnmowers, diesel for the work. But petrol is the fuel of choice for 'driving'.
Having said that, I definitely wouldn't have a diesel for town work nowadays.
daemon said:
Fastdruid said:
daemon said:
Genuinely - poor driving and / or poor grasp of driving the engine to its strengths.
Make your mind up.Previous post "you never need 1st" next post "poor driving because you need first".
Exactly
"You never need first" - if you're driving it correctly
"poor driving because you need first" - because you're driving it incorrectly.
Simples.
Because there is *no* go without boost and if your revs drop too low you're out of it.
Hell, stick a manual diesel in 1st, get it moving and then plant your foot. Count how many seconds until it finally lumbers up to the boost threshold and starts to move. 7-10s or so. Every single petrol from a lowly 1l will have instantly accelerated.
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