Diesel just doesn't win me over....
Discussion
Fastdruid said:
Exactly this.
Roundabouts are the ones that do my head in.
Petrol car: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate on. No gear change required.
Diesel car version 1: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accel....Er hold on...still waiting....full throttle now....still no acceleration yet...do I change down or wait for it to stagger up to the boost threshold....oh and finally there is.
Diesel car version 2: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accel....Er hold on...f
k I've dropped below 1700rpm, change down to get past boost threshold, near immediate gear change back up again.
Diesel car version 2: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, change to 1st. Engine now revving it's tits off. Check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate and immediately back into 2nd etc.
A few driving lessons with somebody who knows how to drive and you should be able to master it eventually.Roundabouts are the ones that do my head in.
Petrol car: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate on. No gear change required.
Diesel car version 1: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accel....Er hold on...still waiting....full throttle now....still no acceleration yet...do I change down or wait for it to stagger up to the boost threshold....oh and finally there is.
Diesel car version 2: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accel....Er hold on...f
k I've dropped below 1700rpm, change down to get past boost threshold, near immediate gear change back up again. Diesel car version 2: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, change to 1st. Engine now revving it's tits off. Check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate and immediately back into 2nd etc.
Fastdruid said:
Bingo. He *finally* gets it and admits that you need an extra gearchange. Except that it's not <10mph it's nearer <15-.
What? My car always starts in 2nd gear and drives on idle in 2nd it will only engage 1st if I go into tiptronic and force it to do so or if your stationary and select sport mode. It's certainly not an issue on any 3ltr BMW TDI and oddly enough I have a 2.2ltr TDI I4 too it's a 5 speed so actually has long gearing I will not drive it in 4th below 30mph as it would be near on idle. Again though never had the issue this chap is mentioning
Lastly even if this issue did exist the time to Rev from idle (in neutral) to limiter is probably 2 seconds - and that's being very pessimistic so to get from idle to 1.5k revs which is a key barrier for you takes 7-10seconds... How?
Have you been driving long or still taking lessons?
Welshbeef said:
Fastdruid said:
Bingo. He *finally* gets it and admits that you need an extra gearchange. Except that it's not <10mph it's nearer <15-.
What? My car always starts in 2nd gear and drives on idle in 2nd it will only engage 1st if I go into tiptronic and force it to do so or if your stationary and select sport mode. kING ***AUTO*** with a 3l twin turbo. Not a single turbo manual 2.0.Not that I'd believe you anyway, bought any 944's recently? Misses bought you another S2000 this year?
Fastdruid said:
Welshbeef said:
Fastdruid said:
Bingo. He *finally* gets it and admits that you need an extra gearchange. Except that it's not <10mph it's nearer <15-.
What? My car always starts in 2nd gear and drives on idle in 2nd it will only engage 1st if I go into tiptronic and force it to do so or if your stationary and select sport mode. kING ***AUTO*** with a 3l twin turbo. Not a single turbo manual 2.0.Not that I'd believe you anyway, bought any 944's recently? Misses bought you another S2000 this year?
Be polite please your sounding like a petulant child.
Fastdruid said:
Devil2575 said:
That's just absolute bks.
How can any diesel get from 0-60 in sub 10 seconds if it takes 7-10 seconds in first gear for the rves to rise high enough to hit the boost.
Because you can rev it past ~1500rpm and then pull away. ks.How can any diesel get from 0-60 in sub 10 seconds if it takes 7-10 seconds in first gear for the rves to rise high enough to hit the boost.
Fastdruid said:
Devil2575 said:
1st gear is sufficiently low so that it doesn't need to be on boost to quickly get up to 1500-2000 rpm from idle.
The effect you are talking about is what happens if you leave it in a higher gear and then try to pull away. You need to change to first once your speed gets very low, say 10mph, rather than in a petrol where you can pretty much leave it in second as long as you're not going to come to a standstill.
Bingo. He *finally* gets it and admits that you need an extra gearchange. Except that it's not <10mph it's nearer <15-. The effect you are talking about is what happens if you leave it in a higher gear and then try to pull away. You need to change to first once your speed gets very low, say 10mph, rather than in a petrol where you can pretty much leave it in second as long as you're not going to come to a standstill.
Finally admit it? I haven't been trying to deny it. It was the first thing I noticed when I drove a modern diesel, you can't crawl along in 2nd as the car will stall.
It's no hardship though especially as I tend to do less changes when i'm up to speed.
Welshbeef said:
Many times I have pulled away in stick shift diesels 2ltr 4pots with zero throttle just on the idle/guvoner. It crawls no issue at all, it will do it in 2nd too you just need to slip the clutch a touch then fully release.
My car will crawl in 1st no problem, it just won't in 2nd. Neither would my wifes mazda 6 diesel, or any other one I've driven for that matter.I could slip the clutch but why would I want to do that?
Devil2575 said:
My car will crawl in 1st no problem, it just won't in 2nd. Neither would my wifes mazda 6 diesel, or any other one I've driven for that matter.
I could slip the clutch but why would I want to do that?
I'm talking about pulling away with zero throttle input - when I say slip the clutch literally for a few feet then your fully engaged in gear. I could slip the clutch but why would I want to do that?
Fastdruid said:
YOU HAVE A fkING ***AUTO*** with a 3l twin turbo. Not a single turbo manual 2.0.
Not that I'd believe you anyway, bought any 944's recently? Misses bought you another S2000 this year?
Not sure which of these you need most - kING ***AUTO*** with a 3l twin turbo. Not a single turbo manual 2.0.Not that I'd believe you anyway, bought any 944's recently? Misses bought you another S2000 this year?
http://www.britannia-driving-school.com/refresher-...
http://www.counselling-directory.org.uk/anger.html
Fastdruid said:
Hell, stick a manual diesel in 1st, get it moving and then plant your foot. Count how many seconds until it finally lumbers up to the boost threshold and starts to move. 7-10s or so. Every single petrol from a lowly 1l will have instantly accelerated.
You're absolutely right you know. I was reading this thread earlier on and thought I'd ignore everything I know about driving and test your theory out on the way home, so I gave my diesel full throttle at 1000rpm in second gear. Stupid crappy gutless-off-boost four pot manual diesel 
http://youtu.be/4zqdvYeBLiA
ORD said:
But are you talking slush boxes from back in the day or the current ZF boxes and their ilk? Massive difference - an engine with a small power band (any 4 cyl diesel) really benefits from having lots of ratios. It also deals with the problem of having to change down to 1st all the bloody time in traffic! Annoying as hell in a manual, but the auto box does it seemlessly.
I have driven the 320d in auto, Merc c-class in auto (petrol and diesel) and I think a couple of other diesel autos (hire cars) but I have blocked out the memories! I have only ever driven a couple of diesel manuals, and it was soul destroying having to change gear so bloody often - a good auto box just shuffles around without you even noticing.
Not from that far back but I will admit I don't have much experience with the very latest.I have driven the 320d in auto, Merc c-class in auto (petrol and diesel) and I think a couple of other diesel autos (hire cars) but I have blocked out the memories! I have only ever driven a couple of diesel manuals, and it was soul destroying having to change gear so bloody often - a good auto box just shuffles around without you even noticing.
However, I have driven a gazillion manual diesels over the years and I can honestly say I've never had any issues with them.
Fastdruid said:
Exactly this.
Roundabouts are the ones that do my head in.
Petrol car: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate on. No gear change required.
Diesel car version 1: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accel....Er hold on...still waiting....full throttle now....still no acceleration yet...do I change down or wait for it to stagger up to the boost threshold....oh and finally there is.
Diesel car version 2: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accel....Er hold on...fk I've dropped below 1700rpm, change down to get past boost threshold, near immediate gear change back up again.
Diesel car version 2: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, change to 1st. Engine now revving it's tits off. Check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate and immediately back into 2nd etc.
OkRoundabouts are the ones that do my head in.
Petrol car: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate on. No gear change required.
Diesel car version 1: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accel....Er hold on...still waiting....full throttle now....still no acceleration yet...do I change down or wait for it to stagger up to the boost threshold....oh and finally there is.
Diesel car version 2: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accel....Er hold on...f
k I've dropped below 1700rpm, change down to get past boost threshold, near immediate gear change back up again. Diesel car version 2: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, change to 1st. Engine now revving it's tits off. Check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate and immediately back into 2nd etc.
First of all, you really need to stop drinking heavily so early in the morning you must have been completely out of your mind I can only imagine you are face down somewhere by now.
Secondly, the last diesel I remember that drove even remotely like the way you describe was the Cavalier 1.7td and that was in the early 90's, being off boost in that thing at a roundabout or trying to pull quickly out of a junction led to some serious brown trouser moments.
BrownBottle said:
Fastdruid said:
Exactly this.
Roundabouts are the ones that do my head in.
Petrol car: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate on. No gear change required.
Diesel car version 1: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accel....Er hold on...still waiting....full throttle now....still no acceleration yet...do I change down or wait for it to stagger up to the boost threshold....oh and finally there is.
Diesel car version 2: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accel....Er hold on...fk I've dropped below 1700rpm, change down to get past boost threshold, near immediate gear change back up again.
Diesel car version 2: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, change to 1st. Engine now revving it's tits off. Check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate and immediately back into 2nd etc.
OkRoundabouts are the ones that do my head in.
Petrol car: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate on. No gear change required.
Diesel car version 1: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accel....Er hold on...still waiting....full throttle now....still no acceleration yet...do I change down or wait for it to stagger up to the boost threshold....oh and finally there is.
Diesel car version 2: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accel....Er hold on...f
k I've dropped below 1700rpm, change down to get past boost threshold, near immediate gear change back up again. Diesel car version 2: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, change to 1st. Engine now revving it's tits off. Check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate and immediately back into 2nd etc.
First of all, you really need to stop drinking heavily so early in the morning you must have been completely out of your mind I can only imagine you are face down somewhere by now.
Secondly, the last diesel I remember that drove even remotely like the way you describe was the Cavalier 1.7td and that was in the early 90's, being off boost in that thing at a roundabout or trying to pull quickly out of a junction led to some serious brown trouser moments.
He also seems to have real trouble changing gear, perhaps he only has one arm?
Devil2575 said:
BrownBottle said:
Fastdruid said:
Exactly this.
Roundabouts are the ones that do my head in.
Petrol car: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate on. No gear change required.
Diesel car version 1: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accel....Er hold on...still waiting....full throttle now....still no acceleration yet...do I change down or wait for it to stagger up to the boost threshold....oh and finally there is.
Diesel car version 2: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accel....Er hold on...fk I've dropped below 1700rpm, change down to get past boost threshold, near immediate gear change back up again.
Diesel car version 2: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, change to 1st. Engine now revving it's tits off. Check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate and immediately back into 2nd etc.
OkRoundabouts are the ones that do my head in.
Petrol car: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate on. No gear change required.
Diesel car version 1: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accel....Er hold on...still waiting....full throttle now....still no acceleration yet...do I change down or wait for it to stagger up to the boost threshold....oh and finally there is.
Diesel car version 2: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accel....Er hold on...f
k I've dropped below 1700rpm, change down to get past boost threshold, near immediate gear change back up again. Diesel car version 2: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, change to 1st. Engine now revving it's tits off. Check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate and immediately back into 2nd etc.
First of all, you really need to stop drinking heavily so early in the morning you must have been completely out of your mind I can only imagine you are face down somewhere by now.
Secondly, the last diesel I remember that drove even remotely like the way you describe was the Cavalier 1.7td and that was in the early 90's, being off boost in that thing at a roundabout or trying to pull quickly out of a junction led to some serious brown trouser moments.
He also seems to have real trouble changing gear, perhaps he only has one arm?
I was wrong. My Focus diesel will pull from 1000 rpm in 2nd and 3rd no problem. Ok it's a little sluggish in 3rd but we're not taking anything like 7-10 seconds sluggish.
On reflection the last diesel I remember being awful off turbo was a Vauxhall Combi van. I also once drove a Passat diesel that stalled if you tried to drive slowly in anything other than first. However my Focus is a lot more flexible than I thought.
On reflection the last diesel I remember being awful off turbo was a Vauxhall Combi van. I also once drove a Passat diesel that stalled if you tried to drive slowly in anything other than first. However my Focus is a lot more flexible than I thought.
I've Driven a Sierra 2.3 D that is not an experience is want again but even so floor it in 2nd at idle it wouldn't have taken 7-10secojds to get going. Heck that didn't even have a turbo....just 45bhp probably less the hard life the one I drove didn't have the power to pull skin off of custard but it was able to maintain speed limits
Diderot said:
Devil2575 said:
BrownBottle said:
Fastdruid said:
Exactly this.
Roundabouts are the ones that do my head in.
Petrol car: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate on. No gear change required.
Diesel car version 1: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accel....Er hold on...still waiting....full throttle now....still no acceleration yet...do I change down or wait for it to stagger up to the boost threshold....oh and finally there is.
Diesel car version 2: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accel....Er hold on...fk I've dropped below 1700rpm, change down to get past boost threshold, near immediate gear change back up again.
Diesel car version 2: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, change to 1st. Engine now revving it's tits off. Check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate and immediately back into 2nd etc.
OkRoundabouts are the ones that do my head in.
Petrol car: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate on. No gear change required.
Diesel car version 1: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accel....Er hold on...still waiting....full throttle now....still no acceleration yet...do I change down or wait for it to stagger up to the boost threshold....oh and finally there is.
Diesel car version 2: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accel....Er hold on...f
k I've dropped below 1700rpm, change down to get past boost threshold, near immediate gear change back up again. Diesel car version 2: Approaching in 3rd, slow down, change to 2nd, change to 1st. Engine now revving it's tits off. Check it's clear. Don't need to stop so accelerate and immediately back into 2nd etc.
First of all, you really need to stop drinking heavily so early in the morning you must have been completely out of your mind I can only imagine you are face down somewhere by now.
Secondly, the last diesel I remember that drove even remotely like the way you describe was the Cavalier 1.7td and that was in the early 90's, being off boost in that thing at a roundabout or trying to pull quickly out of a junction led to some serious brown trouser moments.
He also seems to have real trouble changing gear, perhaps he only has one arm?
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