Diesel just doesn't win me over....

[Palmers]

I was always one for saying diesels are more driveable. Lower tq down the rev range so you can use more of the power easily i.e not having to rev the nuts off it. I think it stemmed from that id only had small petrol engines, and went to a big diesel (A8 4.2 TDI)

But after having 2 quick petrol cars (S55 AMG [500bhp] Audi S4 B5 [350bhp) i am reversed. They really pull down low, S4 in 6th will pull from 20mph. S55 was mental and used to push you back in the seat with 5th @ 30. I think it was more of an engine size thing than a fuel type related. Small engines need revving, big engines waft along nicely. I prefer big engines all day long. More than 4 cylinders sounds better too!

Id still love to have a 800bhp cummins ram at some point.

[Devil2575]

Palmers said:

I was always one for saying diesels are more driveable. Lower tq down the rev range so you can use more of the power easily i.e not having to rev the nuts off it. I think it stemmed from that id only had small petrol engines, and went to a big diesel (A8 4.2 TDI)

But after having 2 quick petrol cars (S55 AMG [500bhp] Audi S4 B5 [350bhp) i am reversed. They really pull down low, S4 in 6th will pull from 20mph. S55 was mental and used to push you back in the seat with 5th @ 30. I think it was more of an engine size thing than a fuel type related. Small engines need revving, big engines waft along nicely. I prefer big engines all day long. More than 4 cylinders sounds better too!

Id still love to have a 800bhp cummins ram at some point.

I'd think the difference is that a 4 cylinder NA petrol typically needs to be reved hard to extract the performance. A similar capacity Turbo diesel doesn't.
My 1.8 tdci only has 113 bhp but is easily able to overtake in top gear as long as you're doing 2000 rpm or over. The 1.8 petrol requires far more preparation. To get similar performance from a petrol you need to a turbo or a more capacity. The diesel is already 40% more economical than the 1.8 petrol never mind a bigger capacity or turbo charged petrol. While I'd prefer a big petrol engine it's not difficult to understand why many average car buyers want a diesel.

[Welshbeef]

Devil2575 said:

I'd think the difference is that a 4 cylinder NA petrol typically needs to be reved hard to extract the performance. A similar capacity Turbo diesel doesn't.
My 1.8 tdci only has 113 bhp but is easily able to overtake in top gear as long as you're doing 2000 rpm or over. The 1.8 petrol requires far more preparation. To get similar performance from a petrol you need to a turbo or a more capacity. The diesel is already 40% more economical than the 1.8 petrol never mind a bigger capacity or turbo charged petrol. While I'd prefer a big petrol engine it's not difficult to understand why many average car buyers want a diesel.

I can state for a fact that until I drove and owned an RS6 I didn't really appreciate what a fast car really was and what it meant in day to day give and take driving.

That's a fk off fast car an iconic super car no less. No diesel will ever match it - the noise alone as you start it up wins and I'd wager wins against many high performance petrol cars let alone every diesel .

However it's not cheap to run one - I'm so glad I did though live the dream. Next car or concurrent car will be a bonkers one too as I need an insane injection into the blood stream and knowing my kids they would love one too + the pride daddy drives x supercar kudos to them

[Spoof]

Fastdruid really makes a point.

Petrol owners who can't see the one or two advantages of a diesel, really do lack any sort of driving ability.

Maybe it's the inability to adapt ones driving style that causes such stress and confusion. Stick to your 1l petrol old boy, it's probably the safest thing for all of us.

[Selmer Mk6]

I think driving styles have changed. I read in a previous thread that you have to rev the nuts off a petrol engine to get it going, a diesel is much easier to drive. To me there lies the rub. I am old school and most of the time I like to drive my cars. Therefore revving the engine, changing down a gear to accelerate, etc means a lot to me. Admittedly it is not that easy to do that in London. However, my driving is about 80% pleasure and 20% mundane stuff.

Therefore for those who enjoy the low down torque, the easy driving, cheap tax and fuel then fine. Me and maybe others like to be more engaged in driving our cars. Yes it will cost more, but that is the price worth paying.

[Fattyfat]

I really want to dislike diesel but it has it's place, in fact I own 2 diesel cars currently. Neither of those I would choose for a sunday morning hoon but for the purpose they are used, perfectly adequate.

I also run a 3.0 petrol. Glorious thing however it can financially punish when driven as intended (and in real world terms keeping up with a well driven 320d means driving the life out of it) The general population has no interest in something that will do sub 20mpg even if the powertrain is much more pleasant.

I think most people don't care. They'll buy on PCP/HP to have a new shiny trinket, trouble free on the drive. The generally low tax and decent MPG offsets the monthly payments. Most people can't look at finances long term and for many a weekly fill up is a psychological thing.

What is more surprising is the lack of mention of electric on this thread. A friend recently acquired a Nissan Leaf on PCP and after having a good look at it and a chat with him about the practicalities and range, it made a very real case for 99% of the driving I do against a regular petrol/diesel.

[ORD]

Fattyfat said:

I really want to dislike diesel but it has it's place, in fact I own 2 diesel cars currently. Neither of those I would choose for a sunday morning hoon but for the purpose they are used, perfectly adequate.

I also run a 3.0 petrol. Glorious thing however it can financially punish when driven as intended (and in real world terms keeping up with a well driven 320d means driving the life out of it) The general population has no interest in something that will do sub 20mpg even if the powertrain is much more pleasant.

I think most people don't care. They'll buy on PCP/HP to have a new shiny trinket, trouble free on the drive. The generally low tax and decent MPG offsets the monthly payments. Most people can't look at finances long term and for many a weekly fill up is a psychological thing.

What is more surprising is the lack of mention of electric on this thread. A friend recently acquired a Nissan Leaf on PCP and after having a good look at it and a chat with him about the practicalities and range, it made a very real case for 99% of the driving I do against a regular petrol/diesel.

Electric cars - expensive as hell, astonishingly dull, unforgiveably slow and can't do long journeys. I think that's the problem!

[daemon]

Selmer Mk6 said:

Therefore for those who enjoy the low down torque, the easy driving, cheap tax and fuel then fine. Me and maybe others like to be more engaged in driving our cars. Yes it will cost more, but that is the price worth paying.

You're making that sound mutually exclusive - you enjoy engaging driving OR you drive a diesel.

Its not that clear cut. Firstly for 95% of people they have a car that gets them and their family to / from work / school, weekend shopping, nights out, etc, etc. It may well be that they enjoy engaging driving however the overall abilities of the diesel variant of their car suit their needs better, bearing in mind that might be a Insignia 2.0CDTI and the petrol variant is the 1.8i petrol.

I like more engaged driving however there have been times when a diesel car has suited my needs best.

I'll be honest that statement of yours is probably what i have most beef with on these petrol v diesel "debates". There seems to be a minority like you who still think if you drive a diesel then you clearly arent someone who really "drives" their car. When in reality most diesel drivers on here are objective about both fuel types and can see the merits of both in any given situation and would class themselves as people who enjoy engaging driving.

Also bemusing that some of those "drivers" cant adjust their driving style to make the most of a particular engine.

[daemon]

ORD said:

Electric cars - expensive as hell, astonishingly dull, unforgiveably slow and can't do long journeys. I think that's the problem!

Dont forget the range of "pure" electric cars is improving all the time with each new iteration.

Also, the real new wave of engines are hybrids - which is what i would probably consider if i was doing big miles again.

[AntiLagGC8]

daemon said:

Selmer Mk6 said:

Therefore for those who enjoy the low down torque, the easy driving, cheap tax and fuel then fine. Me and maybe others like to be more engaged in driving our cars. Yes it will cost more, but that is the price worth paying.

You're making that sound mutually exclusive - you enjoy engaging driving OR you drive a diesel.

Its not that clear cut. Firstly for 95% of people they have a car that gets them and their family to / from work / school, weekend shopping, nights out, etc, etc. It may well be that they enjoy engaging driving however the overall abilities of the diesel variant of their car suit their needs better, bearing in mind that might be a Insignia 2.0CDTI and the petrol variant is the 1.8i petrol.

I like more engaged driving however there have been times when a diesel car has suited my needs best.

I'll be honest that statement of yours is probably what i have most beef with on these petrol v diesel "debates". There seems to be a minority like you who still think if you drive a diesel then you clearly arent someone who really "drives" their car. When in reality most diesel drivers on here are objective about both fuel types and can see the merits of both in any given situation and would class themselves as people who enjoy engaging driving.

Also bemusing that some of those "drivers" cant adjust their driving style to make the most of a particular engine.

I sort of agree with what you've said.

I own a diesel car because I do a lot of work miles, I also own a performance petrol car for fun.

We all have to make compromises and that is why many of us do own diesel cars. You can still be into driving with a diesel car but obviously its not the most ideal of platforms if you wish to really drive a car enthusiastically. Diesel cars can deliver strong performance and are often extremely usable out on the road but the downside is there is usually no point trying to get to their red-line and working the car through a set of corners because of the engine and often weight.

I think the majority of diesels make the most sense either driven at 50% effort or at 75% effort and making swift progress.

I actually think diesel engined cars can be very suited to some platforms. I.e. if I wanted to have a luxury auto I'd probably look at the diesel option. The bigger diesel engined Mercs and BMW's are fantastic in this regard.

Still if I wanted an enthusiasts car, it would always be a petrol.

[ORD]

daemon said:

Dont forget the range of "pure" electric cars is improving all the time with each new iteration.

Also, the real new wave of engines are hybrids - which is what i would probably consider if i was doing big miles again.

Sure. Electric cars are the future for most driving, but they aren't the present! The current crop are still really bad and are talked up way beyond their objective merits.

As for the remarks re driving for pleasure, I think the guy's point was that you wouldn't drive a diesel for fun (almost always true) rather than that an enthusiastic driver wouldn't choose a diesel (of course he might - horses for courses).

[Spoof]

daemon said:

Selmer Mk6 said:

Therefore for those who enjoy the low down torque, the easy driving, cheap tax and fuel then fine. Me and maybe others like to be more engaged in driving our cars. Yes it will cost more, but that is the price worth paying.

You're making that sound mutually exclusive - you enjoy engaging driving OR you drive a diesel.

Its not that clear cut. Firstly for 95% of people they have a car that gets them and their family to / from work / school, weekend shopping, nights out, etc, etc. It may well be that they enjoy engaging driving however the overall abilities of the diesel variant of their car suit their needs better, bearing in mind that might be a Insignia 2.0CDTI and the petrol variant is the 1.8i petrol.

I like more engaged driving however there have been times when a diesel car has suited my needs best.

I'll be honest that statement of yours is probably what i have most beef with on these petrol v diesel "debates". There seems to be a minority like you who still think if you drive a diesel then you clearly arent someone who really "drives" their car. When in reality most diesel drivers on here are objective about both fuel types and can see the merits of both in any given situation and would class themselves as people who enjoy engaging driving.

Also bemusing that some of those "drivers" cant adjust their driving style to make the most of a particular engine.

Nail. Head.

Well put sir.

[mikal83]

Spoof said:

Nail. Head.

Well put sir.

+1

[Devil2575]

ORD said:

Electric cars - expensive as hell, astonishingly dull, unforgiveably slow and can't do long journeys. I think that's the problem!

A friend of mine has just got a leaf on lease and he has no issues with it at all. Does a 50 mile each way commute in it and in the 6 months he's had it has never had any range issues. The lease is 250 a month but this is offset by fuel savings. For someone who views driving as a necessity rather than a pleasure it's a perfect tool.

[a311]

I have bikes so for years have only had sheds, usually German with big(ish) petrol engines. Job roles changes have meant I was needing to use the car more and more. Sheds were fine but on one occasion I was without the car for nearly 3 weeks when it needed work done for it's MOT and a lazy garage owner. I decided to have a go at leasing and wasn't looking for a particular make/model and have had a Octavia vRS diesel for a bit over 12 months. The petrol option was much more expensive hence why I went for the diesel.

Part of it is having a nice new modern car over a shed but I really like it for the sort of driving I do, and don't need to worry about reliability issues as it will be gone in less than a year. I'd have another.

[Selmer Mk6]

daemon said:

You're making that sound mutually exclusive - you enjoy engaging driving OR you drive a diesel.

Its not that clear cut. Firstly for 95% of people they have a car that gets them and their family to / from work / school, weekend shopping, nights out, etc, etc. It may well be that they enjoy engaging driving however the overall abilities of the diesel variant of their car suit their needs better, bearing in mind that might be a Insignia 2.0CDTI and the petrol variant is the 1.8i petrol.

I like more engaged driving however there have been times when a diesel car has suited my needs best.

I'll be honest that statement of yours is probably what i have most beef with on these petrol v diesel "debates". There seems to be a minority like you who still think if you drive a diesel then you clearly arent someone who really "drives" their car. When in reality most diesel drivers on here are objective about both fuel types and can see the merits of both in any given situation and would class themselves as people who enjoy engaging driving.

Also bemusing that some of those "drivers" cant adjust their driving style to make the most of a particular engine.

Around 2002 the government changed the taxing rules from the number of miles covered to emissions and reduced the road tax. The result was the increase in the use of diesels. Before this period the majority of high mileage drivers used diesel cars.

It would be interesting to know the mileage of the 95% who drive diesels. Over 18,000 miles per year gave the highest discount for car benefit purposes. Now the benefit is based on emissions and diesels have one of the lowest.

Anyway, back to your points. Engaging driving hmm. The 95% of diesel drivers are likely to be driving fleet type vehicles, which no doubt does its job. However, as engaging a diesel car can be and the drivers may feel that way, a petrol driven car will always be more engaging. I am not surprised diesel owners will talk up the merit of their cars, they are now in the majority. Times are changing

If I covered very high mileages I would buy a diesel, no doubt. This would mean me giving up an element of enjoyment. Motorway driving is hardly engaging is it. I think people need to understand why things have changed and accept diesels and petrol for what they are. Buy and drive what you can afford and what suits. Let's not kid ourselves though.

[daemon]

Selmer Mk6 said:

Around 2002 the government changed the taxing rules from the number of miles covered to emissions and reduced the road tax. The result was the increase in the use of diesels. Before this period the majority of high mileage drivers used diesel cars.

Back as far as 1995 / 1996 with the introduction of the 306 D Turbo, peugeot 405, Golf 1.9TD, etc diesels started to gain real acceptance. Probably around 1999 we started to see more refined diesel cars - Passat, Golf mk4, peugeot 406, etc and there became little downside to driving a diesel, thus they have become more and more popular.

With the advent of DMF/ DPF, etc around 2005 diesels have lost their reliability, can be prone to big bills and thus probably arent best suited to "average" mileage use.

Selmer Mk6 said:

It would be interesting to know the mileage of the 95% who drive diesels. Over 18,000 miles per year gave the highest discount for car benefit purposes. Now the benefit is based on emissions and diesels have one of the lowest.

I would say for a while there if you were buying new, diesel was becoming the "default" choice - better residuals, ease of selling, higher MPG. That though has changed with the latest petrol engines that are highly efficient.

I think a lot of 12K per year drivers are still driving diesels. This is unnecessary and they'd be better off in a petrol car.

Selmer Mk6 said:

Anyway, back to your points. Engaging driving hmm. The 95% of diesel drivers are likely to be driving fleet type vehicles, which no doubt does its job.

I think the vast majority of diesels are driven by private owners.

Selmer Mk6 said:

However, as engaging a diesel car can be and the drivers may feel that way, a petrol driven car will always be more engaging. I am not surprised diesel owners will talk up the merit of their cars, they are now in the majority. Times are changing

I never said "all diesels are engaging to drive", i said that the original statement implied if you were a "real" driver who liked an engaging drive you would be driving a petrol car. My point was - and its been missed again - just because you're driving a diesel doesnt mean you dont enjoy driving and / or you enjoy an engaging drive. It just might not be THAT high on your priority list that it trumps all else. And again, if you're in the market for say, an Insignia as a family hack, is the petrol variant - a 1.8i going to be an "engaging" drive either?

As of this week i wont be a diesel owner as its being sold. In fact i havent driven my diesel golf since january. My daily drive is the VR6 van and our weekend drive is my wifes z4. We're going tomorrow to finalise the purchase of a 2013 370Z, so in no way am i a diesel driver trying to "talk up" how good diesel cars may or may not be. I am however someone who can see the merits of a diesel for the majority of buyers, and i can see that just because your daily hack may at this time be a diesel, it doesnt mean you dont appreciate a good car if / when you have the opportunity to.

Selmer Mk6 said:

If I covered very high mileages I would buy a diesel, no doubt. This would mean me giving up an element of enjoyment. Motorway driving is hardly engaging is it. I think people need to understand why things have changed and accept diesels and petrol for what they are. Buy and drive what you can afford and what suits. Let's not kid ourselves though.

Of course. Even if you were doing reasonable miles and in the market for a people carrier or family or commuting hack, the diesel variant is likely to have greater merits than an asthmatic petrol variant. An example of that is you cant even buy a petrol passat new any more because nobody wants them.

And again, back to my Insignia example, would buying the 1.8i Insignia make you more of a "driver" than buying the diesel variant?

Finally - its not what you drive its how you drive it. I've had the most fun in my motoring history in what might be considered some rather weedy engined cars (of bother petrol and diesel fuels) and its down to making the most of what your car has. I do recall Citroen 2CV racing being very popular at one point, and i dont think anyone would ever describe them as particularly fast or capable or (relatively speaking) engaging. I do recall on another similar veined thread how some bloke with a supercharged M3 came willy waving about how great a driver he was and how much better his car was than a diesel and how he simply couldnt drive something as dull as a diesel and how he nearly got wrecked pulling out of junctions in them, etc, etc, yet he had previously started a thread about how a mate had kept up with his m3 on a cross country blatt in a Smart car - who had the better driver and who had the most fun there?

Edited by daemon on Monday 27th April 09:25