Diesel just doesn't win me over....
Discussion
Spoof said:
Petrol v diesel debates are pointless on the whole.
diesel has its advantages, petrol has its advantages, pick which works best for you and be happy. Don't try and force 'Your' particular needs and wants on others and use that as a reason.
It's like arguing about whether saloon v estate, or rwd v awd is better. Pick the car that suits you, accept you'll be making a compromise and live with it.
Or don't, trade it in, sell it on and end up in the car you should have purchased in the first place.
+1. However the diesel haters are mostly basing their (irrational) hatred on crap 4 cylinder diesels that they may have driven years ago not on state of the art twin turbo 6 cyclider engines. diesel has its advantages, petrol has its advantages, pick which works best for you and be happy. Don't try and force 'Your' particular needs and wants on others and use that as a reason.
It's like arguing about whether saloon v estate, or rwd v awd is better. Pick the car that suits you, accept you'll be making a compromise and live with it.
Or don't, trade it in, sell it on and end up in the car you should have purchased in the first place.
Welshbeef said:
Right drive a modern x35d it goes to 5500-5850 rpm cleanly and pulling very hard all they way.
Drive a M550d 395bhp out of the box
Drove an x35d 8 speed the F30 335d does 0-62mph in 4.7seconds
When your not in Eco pro or comfort even the standard car really does motor on - remap it and your talking of not far off a 10 second 5 series red car to 100mph.
Range how I love an easy 600 before refills and if I needed to do long stints in sure I could get it to 800 miles.
My RS6 whilst stunning noise looks and a chunk quicker everywhere I'd be filling up every 220miles on a 70-75ltr fuel tank and only super unleaded.
It's all about compromises.
Diesel I4 sounds s
t, I6 diesel sounds hugely better --- doesn't compare to petrolV8
Is this about right?Drive a M550d 395bhp out of the box
Drove an x35d 8 speed the F30 335d does 0-62mph in 4.7seconds
When your not in Eco pro or comfort even the standard car really does motor on - remap it and your talking of not far off a 10 second 5 series red car to 100mph.
Range how I love an easy 600 before refills and if I needed to do long stints in sure I could get it to 800 miles.
My RS6 whilst stunning noise looks and a chunk quicker everywhere I'd be filling up every 220miles on a 70-75ltr fuel tank and only super unleaded.
It's all about compromises.
Diesel I4 sounds s
t, I6 diesel sounds hugely better --- doesn't compare to petrolV8
If so, that looks like a fairly typical and frustrating diesel torque and power curve, fizzling out after 3000rpm and leaving you wondering mid-overtake whether it's best to put up with what you're not getting or change up a gear and hope that the increase in flywheel torque combined with taller gearing nets an overall improvement.
I have a 600lb.ft 5 cylinder diesel auto for daily business use. It's ok for a truck but surely nobody would argue it's what you'd want in a luxury car. The diesel suits the truck well because it's meant for towing heavy things slowly. It does not make for relaxed rapid progress.
Spoof said:
Pick the car that suits you, accept you'll be making a compromise and live with it.
You crazy fool! Talk like that will get us all killed!As long as there are people in the world who have to be "right" in a topic where, when you look at it rationally, there is only personal preference and requirements then it will always be like this. It's Android vs iOS, plasma vs lcd, digital vs analogue.....
I have a diesel car and a petrol car. They're both regarded as being at the top of their respective classes. Both fit different needs. If I could find one car which combined both their abilities into one package I'd be delighted, but it doesn't exist.
jamieduff1981 said:
Welshbeef said:
Right drive a modern x35d it goes to 5500-5850 rpm cleanly and pulling very hard all they way.
Drive a M550d 395bhp out of the box
Drove an x35d 8 speed the F30 335d does 0-62mph in 4.7seconds
When your not in Eco pro or comfort even the standard car really does motor on - remap it and your talking of not far off a 10 second 5 series red car to 100mph.
Range how I love an easy 600 before refills and if I needed to do long stints in sure I could get it to 800 miles.
My RS6 whilst stunning noise looks and a chunk quicker everywhere I'd be filling up every 220miles on a 70-75ltr fuel tank and only super unleaded.
It's all about compromises.
Diesel I4 sounds st, I6 diesel sounds hugely better --- doesn't compare to petrolV8
Is this about right?Drive a M550d 395bhp out of the box
Drove an x35d 8 speed the F30 335d does 0-62mph in 4.7seconds
When your not in Eco pro or comfort even the standard car really does motor on - remap it and your talking of not far off a 10 second 5 series red car to 100mph.
Range how I love an easy 600 before refills and if I needed to do long stints in sure I could get it to 800 miles.
My RS6 whilst stunning noise looks and a chunk quicker everywhere I'd be filling up every 220miles on a 70-75ltr fuel tank and only super unleaded.
It's all about compromises.
Diesel I4 sounds s
t, I6 diesel sounds hugely better --- doesn't compare to petrolV8If so, that looks like a fairly typical and frustrating diesel torque and power curve, fizzling out after 3000rpm and leaving you wondering mid-overtake whether it's best to put up with what you're not getting or change up a gear and hope that the increase in flywheel torque combined with taller gearing nets an overall improvement.
I have a 600lb.ft 5 cylinder diesel auto for daily business use. It's ok for a truck but surely nobody would argue it's what you'd want in a luxury car. The diesel suits the truck well because it's meant for towing heavy things slowly. It does not make for relaxed rapid progress.
As you can see the x35d engine goes all the way - as for change up by 3k sure you can but if you want the best you go all the way to 5,750rpm-6k revs.
jamieduff1981 said:
leaving you wondering mid-overtake whether it's best to put up with what you're not getting or change up a gear and hope that the increase in flywheel torque combined with taller gearing nets an overall improvement.
as per my earlier post - nearly all large engined diesel cars are automatics, so your point is invalid.It's OK not to like diesels but......
Diesels are fantastic for tractors, vans and people that don't 'care' about driving. And that's fine. You can tote your MPG, high-mileage reliability and whatnot. But if it comes down to driving pleasure, the joy of just driving without a destination, diesels are st. If I want to get anywhere, I want to enjoy doing it.
I can't bear driving at all and not enjoying it, as driving means so much to me. So I would never, ever have a diesel for that reason.
t. If I want to get anywhere, I want to enjoy doing it. I can't bear driving at all and not enjoying it, as driving means so much to me. So I would never, ever have a diesel for that reason.
Welshbeef said:
http://www.superchips.co.uk/curves/BMWF13640dEPC.p...
As you can see the x35d engine goes all the way - as for change up by 3k sure you can but if you want the best you go all the way to 5,750rpm-6k revs.
No , looking at that chart you change at 4500rpm , why on earth would you rev it to 6k ? As you can see the x35d engine goes all the way - as for change up by 3k sure you can but if you want the best you go all the way to 5,750rpm-6k revs.
liner33 said:
Welshbeef said:
http://www.superchips.co.uk/curves/BMWF13640dEPC.p...
As you can see the x35d engine goes all the way - as for change up by 3k sure you can but if you want the best you go all the way to 5,750rpm-6k revs.
No , looking at that chart you change at 4500rpm , why on earth would you rev it to 6k ? As you can see the x35d engine goes all the way - as for change up by 3k sure you can but if you want the best you go all the way to 5,750rpm-6k revs.
I prefer if wanting to have maximum acceleration that I have most area under the curve as possible so changing up at peak power doesn't give you the best output.
LookAtMyCat said:
Diesels are fantastic for tractors, vans and people that don't 'care' about driving. And that's fine. You can tote your MPG, high-mileage reliability and whatnot. But if it comes down to driving pleasure, the joy of just driving without a destination, diesels are st. If I want to get anywhere, I want to enjoy doing it.
I can't bear driving at all and not enjoying it, as driving means so much to me. So I would never, ever have a diesel for that reason.
I promised myself I wasn't going to get drawn into this thread, but sod it.t. If I want to get anywhere, I want to enjoy doing it. I can't bear driving at all and not enjoying it, as driving means so much to me. So I would never, ever have a diesel for that reason.
LAMC this is absolutely not a personal attack on you, but your post typifies the sort of crippled reasoning that comes out in this sort of argument.
"I'm just *so* passionate about <subject>, and because I'm so committed and passionate and I care just so damn much then I know without question that every <whatever> in <category> is s
t and my personal choice is the only way to go. This must be the case because it's a) my preference and b) there are other enlightened people on the internet who agree with me."You can apply that to people who think "OMG diesel-torques" is the only answer too, just as much as you can apply it to anything else.
If driving pleasure is your be-all and end-all why are you running around in a 330i CS? Sure, it's a nice car, but it's hardly the best handling and most fun thing you could have at that price point. Because like all of us you've compromised based on your own requirements, likes and dislikes. Same with the fuel the car runs on.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 19th April 10:07
There was a period where they came into their own. I had an early Golf Mk 1V with 110 diesel, as my first diesel experience, and it was quite interesting. Mates who drove it were quite impressed too. It was a company car and my previous car was a 6 cylinder petrol. It was the torque "burst" that took people by surprise when they test drove. I also appreciated 50mpg after 3 years of 26mpg. Since then, 17 years, we have had a diesel in the family fleet and I probably won't buy another. We do less than half the miles we used to and petrol engines now are quite economical. I won't miss the noise, rough idle and fear of big bills.
Buying the diesel over the big engined petrol version is like buying fake designer gear, in that you want the look but just can't afford to run the real thing. Plus every time you pull up at the lights next to that v6/v8 version that looks the same as your 2.0 tractor, you'll be embarrassed to rev the engine to pull away.
But will no doubt console yourself that you can drive farther on a tank, forgetting that you've just spent a grand on a new dpf and turbo repairs.....😉
But will no doubt console yourself that you can drive farther on a tank, forgetting that you've just spent a grand on a new dpf and turbo repairs.....😉
charltjr said:
I promised myself I wasn't going to get drawn into this thread, but sod it.
LAMC this is absolutely not a personal attack on you, but your post typifies the sort of crippled reasoning that comes out in this sort of argument.
"I'm just *so* passionate about <subject>, and because I'm so committed and passionate and I care just so damn much then I know without question that every <whatever> in <category> is st and my personal choice is the only way to go. This must be the case because it's a) my preference and b) there are other enlightened people on the internet who agree with me."
You can apply that to people who think "OMG diesel-torques" is the only answer too, just as much as you can apply it to anything else.
If driving pleasure is your be-all and end-all why are you running around in a 330i CS? Sure, it's a nice car, but it's hardly the best handling and most fun thing you could have at that price point. Because like all of us you've compromised based on your own requirements, likes and dislikes. Same with the fuel the car runs on.
Just stating my opinion which is totally valid; just like your counterpoint is valid (although there doesn't appear to be one except 'LAMC is wrong'). LAMC this is absolutely not a personal attack on you, but your post typifies the sort of crippled reasoning that comes out in this sort of argument.
"I'm just *so* passionate about <subject>, and because I'm so committed and passionate and I care just so damn much then I know without question that every <whatever> in <category> is s
t and my personal choice is the only way to go. This must be the case because it's a) my preference and b) there are other enlightened people on the internet who agree with me."You can apply that to people who think "OMG diesel-torques" is the only answer too, just as much as you can apply it to anything else.
If driving pleasure is your be-all and end-all why are you running around in a 330i CS? Sure, it's a nice car, but it's hardly the best handling and most fun thing you could have at that price point. Because like all of us you've compromised based on your own requirements, likes and dislikes. Same with the fuel the car runs on.
Edited by charltjr on Sunday 19th April 10:07
And i've had a lot of cars; the 330 being my current weekend 'toy'. And christ, i'd be the first to agree that it's a really long way from earth-shattering enjoyment. Seemed like a good idea at the time, and it'll be replaced along with all of my weekend cars. None, I should add, that have and will ever be diesel.
And you say about compromising on requirements? Well that was exactly my point. Diesel, in a fun car, is nothing but a compromise because of MPG/practicality etc etc. You've reinforced my point yourself.
I should add that I drive a diesel Transit all week and the wife has a massive diesel 4x4, both of which are excellent implementations of a diesel engine
liner33 said:
Welshbeef said:
http://www.superchips.co.uk/curves/BMWF13640dEPC.p...
As you can see the x35d engine goes all the way - as for change up by 3k sure you can but if you want the best you go all the way to 5,750rpm-6k revs.
No , looking at that chart you change at 4500rpm , why on earth would you rev it to 6k ? As you can see the x35d engine goes all the way - as for change up by 3k sure you can but if you want the best you go all the way to 5,750rpm-6k revs.
I guess based upon your response above you'd never Rev a Focus ST beyond 5,250rpm peak power yet red line/limit is 7k.
Interesting .....
Welshbeef said:
Who changes at bang on peak power ? Racing drivers certainly do not so you take it all the way especially as the decrease means you have about 95% peak power at rev limit. If you change up then you get into the curve sooner/higher up changing up at peak power means you land with lower power in the next gear.
I prefer if wanting to have maximum acceleration that I have most area under the curve as possible so changing up at peak power doesn't give you the best output.
That's not bang on peak power , that's after peak power meaning the rpm would drop to just before peak power I prefer if wanting to have maximum acceleration that I have most area under the curve as possible so changing up at peak power doesn't give you the best output.
Also the earlier you change on the diesel the more torque you will have so it would feel faster
No one in their right would be waiting until 6k to shift on that engine
Welshbeef said:
supersingle said:
I've never driven a four cylinder turbo diesel that was anything less than awful. The absence of torque at low revs is horrible. Then there's the clatter, the smell and the constant fear of failure of the DMF/DPF/injectors/turbo.
Big 5+ cylinder diesels are OK, but then they're hardly cheap to run are they?
Try the BMW 123d - sequential turbos eliminate that issue entirely Big 5+ cylinder diesels are OK, but then they're hardly cheap to run are they?
No, I just got myself a fun, cheap petrol car (172) that does reasonable economy anyway.
The only trouble I have is finding a van with a decent engine. The low down torque issues of modern diesels are very noticeable in a heavy vehicle. The trend for downsizing isn't making that any better.
ChasW said:
There was a period where they came into their own. I had an early Golf Mk 1V with 110 diesel, as my first diesel experience, and it was quite interesting. Mates who drove it were quite impressed too. It was a company car and my previous car was a 6 cylinder petrol. It was the torque "burst" that took people by surprise when they test drove. I also appreciated 50mpg after 3 years of 26mpg. Since then, 17 years, we have had a diesel in the family fleet and I probably won't buy another. We do less than half the miles we used to and petrol engines now are quite economical. I won't miss the noise, rough idle and fear of big bills.
In 17 years have you had any big bills?Tip - Petrols now also have the exact same potential for big bills/possibly more as its first ten tech v generations of tried and tested.
supersingle said:
The only trouble I have is finding a van with a decent engine. The low down torque issues of modern diesels are very noticeable in a heavy vehicle. The trend for downsizing isn't making that any better.
I've got a Transit with the 2.2T and it shifts, even with a full load. Try one.supersingle said:
I'm not a flippin' millionaire y'know!
No, I just got myself a fun, cheap petrol car (172) that does reasonable economy anyway.
The only trouble I have is finding a van with a decent engine. The low down torque issues of modern diesels are very noticeable in a heavy vehicle. The trend for downsizing isn't making that any better.
I loved my 2.9 Merc Sprinter No, I just got myself a fun, cheap petrol car (172) that does reasonable economy anyway.
The only trouble I have is finding a van with a decent engine. The low down torque issues of modern diesels are very noticeable in a heavy vehicle. The trend for downsizing isn't making that any better.
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