Diesel just doesn't win me over....
Discussion
LookAtMyCat said:
supersingle said:
The only trouble I have is finding a van with a decent engine. The low down torque issues of modern diesels are very noticeable in a heavy vehicle. The trend for downsizing isn't making that any better.
I've got a Transit with the 2.2T and it shifts, even with a full load. Try one.
king useless at low revs, absosulely flat as a fart. The new one comes with a 1.6 diesel, either a single or twin turbo. I can only imagine how bad the single turbo engine will be. 
I'm looking at getting a Sprinter with a 3L V6 before the bean counters get to them!
liner33 said:
Welshbeef said:
Who changes at bang on peak power ? Racing drivers certainly do not so you take it all the way especially as the decrease means you have about 95% peak power at rev limit. If you change up then you get into the curve sooner/higher up changing up at peak power means you land with lower power in the next gear.
I prefer if wanting to have maximum acceleration that I have most area under the curve as possible so changing up at peak power doesn't give you the best output.
That's not bang on peak power , that's after peak power meaning the rpm would drop to just before peak power I prefer if wanting to have maximum acceleration that I have most area under the curve as possible so changing up at peak power doesn't give you the best output.
Also the earlier you change on the diesel the more torque you will have so it would feel faster
No one in their right would be waiting until 6k to shift on that engine
Surely you agree maximum acceleration is hit in the lowest gear at peak power?
There is another thread on this nearly a year ago which dragged on and on finally coming round to yep your right
. Torque is meaningless its power that's important.
Heck it's possible that I or a human could generate 2000lbs but if the rpm is say one turn every twenty seconds it's sod all power
Power is the rate at which you can generate the torque.
Warnie said:
Buying the diesel over the big engined petrol version is like buying fake designer gear, in that you want the look but just can't afford to run the real thing. Plus every time you pull up at the lights next to that v6/v8 version that looks the same as your 2.0 tractor, you'll be embarrassed to rev the engine to pull away.
But will no doubt console yourself that you can drive farther on a tank, forgetting that you've just spent a grand on a new dpf and turbo repairs.....??
I dont think anybody buys a 2.0 diesel "over a big engined petrol", they buy the diesel variant because it suits their needs better. Granted the v6 / v8 sounds nicer and will be smoother, but for the bulk of people in the real world, thats not their highest priorities of a car for the daily grind.But will no doubt console yourself that you can drive farther on a tank, forgetting that you've just spent a grand on a new dpf and turbo repairs.....??
You only have to look at 5 series sales - probably 95% are 2.0 litre diesels and its a very capable engine in a very capable car. I dont think those people on the whole cry into their dinner every night thinking "my life is a lie - i cant afford to drive the real thing". And at the traffic light "grand prix" - if thats important to you - they're more likely to be thinking that poor sod is getting half the mpg i am and i'm sitting in the same car.
Also, its all very well saying that the diesels day is over, but whats it being replaced with? Tiny engined petrol variants with high pressure turbos.
I could be wrong here but is it not impossible these days to buy a N/A six cylinder BMW these days?
So what are we really achieving saying the day of the 520d and 530d are coming to an end if they're replaced with a 520i four pot and a 528i four pot?
Likewise, replacing a Focus 1.6TDI with a 1.0 petrol variant?
Its not like straight sixes have suddenly become 50% more economical.
I could be wrong here but is it not impossible these days to buy a N/A six cylinder BMW these days?
So what are we really achieving saying the day of the 520d and 530d are coming to an end if they're replaced with a 520i four pot and a 528i four pot?
Likewise, replacing a Focus 1.6TDI with a 1.0 petrol variant?
Its not like straight sixes have suddenly become 50% more economical.
Warnie said:
Buying the diesel over the big engined petrol version is like buying fake designer gear, in that you want the look but just can't afford to run the real thing. Plus every time you pull up at the lights next to that v6/v8 version that looks the same as your 2.0 tractor, you'll be embarrassed to rev the engine to pull away.
But will no doubt console yourself that you can drive farther on a tank, forgetting that you've just spent a grand on a new dpf and turbo repairs.....??
that's a bit cringworthy tbh.But will no doubt console yourself that you can drive farther on a tank, forgetting that you've just spent a grand on a new dpf and turbo repairs.....??
I don't mind saying I have a mondeo diesel. I'm a tight yorkshireman.
I've had all manner of lovely petrol stuff too. 20 ish mpg isn't appealing anymore I'm afraid.
Name me a mondeo sized petrol engined car that does 40 mpg going nowhere in traffic jams ? And then easily does around 55-57 mpg at many leptons on the motorway.
Who exactly am I trying to burn off in a traffic light race with my two little girls in the back ?
Why I am impressed or should I be that someone else's car might be quicker than mine ? Where in a city riddled with 30 mph speed cameras ?
Am I 17 years old thinking that these things actually matter ?
Have you ever even had a lady in a car when some boy racer/speedy person whips past and heard the scorn they pour on such driving ? Indeed its just the same when a car is heard with a stereo banging out some tunes, innit.
who exactly do you think is impressed ? apart from other 17 yr old boys.
I used to have an Accord 2.4 petrol manual saloon with 190bhp. It would average 31-32mpg brim to brim, mainly motorway driving.
I've just bought a 320d auto with 184bhp that straight out of the box is managing high 40s in town commuting before it even has 1000 miles on it.
I much prefer the engine in the Accord and, take running costs out the equation, I'd have bought a petrol every time, however the difference is too big to ignore if the cost per mile is an important factor.
I've just bought a 320d auto with 184bhp that straight out of the box is managing high 40s in town commuting before it even has 1000 miles on it.
I much prefer the engine in the Accord and, take running costs out the equation, I'd have bought a petrol every time, however the difference is too big to ignore if the cost per mile is an important factor.
jamieduff1981 said:
If so, that looks like a fairly typical and frustrating diesel torque and power curve, fizzling out after 3000rpm and leaving you wondering mid-overtake whether it's best to put up with what you're not getting or change up a gear and hope that the increase in flywheel torque combined with taller gearing nets an overall improvement.
I have a 600lb.ft 5 cylinder diesel auto for daily business use. It's ok for a truck but surely nobody would argue it's what you'd want in a luxury car. The diesel suits the truck well because it's meant for towing heavy things slowly. It does not make for relaxed rapid progress.
I've had two modded e60 535ds putting out roughly 350BHP and 500lb/ft of torque.I have a 600lb.ft 5 cylinder diesel auto for daily business use. It's ok for a truck but surely nobody would argue it's what you'd want in a luxury car. The diesel suits the truck well because it's meant for towing heavy things slowly. It does not make for relaxed rapid progress.
I can assure you that when you pull out to overtake you are in no way wondering anything other than "holy s
t".And yes, they make perfect sense for relaxed rapid progress. Lots of torque low down and almost silent travel, yet sheer grunt when you want it.
Heres what acceleration in a f10 535d looks like - can you point me to any point where the driver is left "wondering" what to do?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcednoo_gco
Edited by daemon on Sunday 19th April 10:46
daemon said:
jamieduff1981 said:
If so, that looks like a fairly typical and frustrating diesel torque and power curve, fizzling out after 3000rpm and leaving you wondering mid-overtake whether it's best to put up with what you're not getting or change up a gear and hope that the increase in flywheel torque combined with taller gearing nets an overall improvement.
I have a 600lb.ft 5 cylinder diesel auto for daily business use. It's ok for a truck but surely nobody would argue it's what you'd want in a luxury car. The diesel suits the truck well because it's meant for towing heavy things slowly. It does not make for relaxed rapid progress.
I've had two modded 535ds putting out roughly 350BHP and 500lb/ft of torque.I have a 600lb.ft 5 cylinder diesel auto for daily business use. It's ok for a truck but surely nobody would argue it's what you'd want in a luxury car. The diesel suits the truck well because it's meant for towing heavy things slowly. It does not make for relaxed rapid progress.
I can assure you that when you pull out to overtake you are in no way wondering anything other than "holy s
t".And yes, they make perfect sense for relaxed rapid progress. Lots of torque low down and almost silent travel, yet sheer grunt when you want it.
I absolutely hated the engine in my 520d it was just terrible in everyway, the engine in the 640d is better and offers a good performance/economy mix but its still a diesel(read noisy) and is harsh/noisy if you use the stop/start but I don't because it just annoys me too much.
The 640d is a lovely car spoilt by the engine but with doing around 40k miles a year it fits the job well of high mileage cruiser...the engine in my 330i though is the engine I much prefer sitting behind and for me you only ever go diesel to save money because they are inferior to a petrol in everyway bar economy.
The 640d is a lovely car spoilt by the engine but with doing around 40k miles a year it fits the job well of high mileage cruiser...the engine in my 330i though is the engine I much prefer sitting behind and for me you only ever go diesel to save money because they are inferior to a petrol in everyway bar economy.
cerb4.5lee said:
I absolutely hated the engine in my 520d it was just terrible in everyway, the engine in the 640d is better and offers a good performance/economy mix but its still a diesel(read noisy) and is harsh/noisy if you use the stop/start but I don't because it just annoys me too much.
The 640d is a lovely car spoilt by the engine but with doing around 40k miles a year it fits the job well of high mileage cruiser...the engine in my 330i though is the engine I much prefer sitting behind and for me you only ever go diesel to save money because they are inferior to a petrol in everyway bar economy.
But you're talking about an NA engine you cant even buy new any more.The 640d is a lovely car spoilt by the engine but with doing around 40k miles a year it fits the job well of high mileage cruiser...the engine in my 330i though is the engine I much prefer sitting behind and for me you only ever go diesel to save money because they are inferior to a petrol in everyway bar economy.
The equivalent these days of a 330i is a 328i with a four pot in it, not a creamy six.
And this "to save money" thing - people dont buy a 640d "to save money", they buy it for the overall package that it gives them. It may not sound as nice as an older 330i but its still an excellent package
Welshbeef said:
ChasW said:
There was a period where they came into their own. I had an early Golf Mk 1V with 110 diesel, as my first diesel experience, and it was quite interesting. Mates who drove it were quite impressed too. It was a company car and my previous car was a 6 cylinder petrol. It was the torque "burst" that took people by surprise when they test drove. I also appreciated 50mpg after 3 years of 26mpg. Since then, 17 years, we have had a diesel in the family fleet and I probably won't buy another. We do less than half the miles we used to and petrol engines now are quite economical. I won't miss the noise, rough idle and fear of big bills.
In 17 years have you had any big bills?Tip - Petrols now also have the exact same potential for big bills/possibly more as its first ten tech v generations of tried and tested.
Welshbeef said:
liner33 said:
Welshbeef said:
http://www.superchips.co.uk/curves/BMWF13640dEPC.p...
As you can see the x35d engine goes all the way - as for change up by 3k sure you can but if you want the best you go all the way to 5,750rpm-6k revs.
No , looking at that chart you change at 4500rpm , why on earth would you rev it to 6k ? As you can see the x35d engine goes all the way - as for change up by 3k sure you can but if you want the best you go all the way to 5,750rpm-6k revs.
I guess based upon your response above you'd never Rev a Focus ST beyond 5,250rpm peak power yet red line/limit is 7k.
Interesting .....
Personally I prefer my engines to make power up to just shy of the red line but we all make our compromises.
Fastdruid said:
While I don't have a Focus ST I have the same engine and liner33 is correct, you don't run it to 7k because after ~5k it doesn't feel like it's accelerating hard any more and grabbing another gear gives a lot more go.
Personally I prefer my engines to make power up to just shy of the red line but we all make our compromises.
I guess it's all academic here anyway as if you leave it in auto sports it will change you up at the best possible time depending on throttle load/position. Personally I prefer my engines to make power up to just shy of the red line but we all make our compromises.
From memory when I've had my foot to the floor it goes all the way to the limiter not once has it ever changed up at the peak power - not for that matter has it in comfort made.
I guess these R&D engineers know a lot more about when is best to change up for maximum acceleration over chaps on tinternet forum
. Welshbeef said:
Fastdruid said:
While I don't have a Focus ST I have the same engine and liner33 is correct, you don't run it to 7k because after ~5k it doesn't feel like it's accelerating hard any more and grabbing another gear gives a lot more go.
Personally I prefer my engines to make power up to just shy of the red line but we all make our compromises.
I guess it's all academic here anyway as if you leave it in auto sports it will change you up at the best possible time depending on throttle load/position. Personally I prefer my engines to make power up to just shy of the red line but we all make our compromises.
From memory when I've had my foot to the floor it goes all the way to the limiter not once has it ever changed up at the peak power - not for that matter has it in comfort made.
I guess these R&D engineers know a lot more about when is best to change up for maximum acceleration over chaps on tinternet forum
. daemon said:
But you're talking about an NA engine you cant even buy new any more.
The equivalent these days of a 330i is a 328i with a four pot in it, not a creamy six.
And this "to save money" thing - people dont buy a 640d "to save money", they buy it for the overall package that it gives them. It may not sound as nice as an older 330i but its still an excellent package
Yes I agree it is a very good package and we love what it does for us overall and I enjoy driving it as long as the road is straight as it falls apart a fair bit in the bends though! The equivalent these days of a 330i is a 328i with a four pot in it, not a creamy six.
And this "to save money" thing - people dont buy a 640d "to save money", they buy it for the overall package that it gives them. It may not sound as nice as an older 330i but its still an excellent package
I think for a pretty vintage engine the N52 in the 330i is a corker but I can see the appeal of the current 328i too because it offers better performance with better economy so not much to dislike really.
I wouldn't be surprised if diesel bashing and then diesel lovers bashing the diesel bashers is the most popular thread topic on here.
Why did this one even need to be started?
Some people like cars powered by diesel, some people don't. I therefore don't understand why whenever someone drives a diesel car, they feel the need to have a whine.
Why did this one even need to be started?
Some people like cars powered by diesel, some people don't. I therefore don't understand why whenever someone drives a diesel car, they feel the need to have a whine.
Fastdruid said:
No, they're not going to have programmed in the torque curve for each engine and they're especially not going to know when it's remapped. An autobox however is an essential method to combat the diesel lack of low down and top end torque. If I had to suffer a diesel it would have to be auto.
In which case then you believe that the ZF8 (given it does in my car) any car with that unit in sport will Rev each year to the limiter when foot to the floor?I've another diesel in the household and it's a 5 speed box. I'd always opt for auto these days for family and commuting cars - track fun different but the autos are simply so good it's hard to see the benefit of stick shift.
I would never buy a diesel car (because I don't do enough miles for it to make sense), but I agree with those diesel lovers pointing out that the difference between standard petrol engines and standard petrol engines has narrowed.
A four pot petrol is tolerable but unexciting, a big like a six pot diesel. Neither comes close to a 6 or 8 cylinder petrol, but people don't buy those these days.
Justifying the 320i over the 320d is hard if mpg matters to you. My wife's 320i touring averages 32mpg and is lovely and refined (unlike the 320d), so it burns about 50% more fuel for the same performance. That's a big difference just for the sake of quiet and being able to chase the red line (which she doesnt).
A heavily boosted 1.6 or 1.8 petrol is pretty nasty, and barely any more pleasant than a 2.0 diesel.
A four pot petrol is tolerable but unexciting, a big like a six pot diesel. Neither comes close to a 6 or 8 cylinder petrol, but people don't buy those these days.
Justifying the 320i over the 320d is hard if mpg matters to you. My wife's 320i touring averages 32mpg and is lovely and refined (unlike the 320d), so it burns about 50% more fuel for the same performance. That's a big difference just for the sake of quiet and being able to chase the red line (which she doesnt).
A heavily boosted 1.6 or 1.8 petrol is pretty nasty, and barely any more pleasant than a 2.0 diesel.
cerb4.5lee said:
Yes I agree it is a very good package and we love what it does for us overall and I enjoy driving it as long as the road is straight as it falls apart a fair bit in the bends though!
I think for a pretty vintage engine the N52 in the 330i is a corker but I can see the appeal of the current 328i too because it offers better performance with better economy so not much to dislike really.
I think the N52 is an all time classic. Fantastic engine.I think for a pretty vintage engine the N52 in the 330i is a corker but I can see the appeal of the current 328i too because it offers better performance with better economy so not much to dislike really.
My wife has one of the "new" 2.0i Turbo petrols in her z4 and whilst its a good engine, it doesnt have the noise or creaminess of the straight six variant shes had before.
Thus, as i've said, what are you really gaining going for a 320i over a 320d if you're or a 328i over a 330d if you're not getting a creamy six petrol anyway?
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