RE: Smart motorways are dumb: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
Coddy85 said:
CS400 said:
Nope, you may have noticed I made the comment somewhat in jest. I don't do it (and I don't tailgate) but I am just pointing up how some drivers seem to react.
What I do find frustrating is the fact that I can be driving in a queue waiting for the cars in front to pull over so I can pass, when I get a driver behind that thinks that presenting their 'prestige' badge close enough in my rear view mirror should mean that I automatic move over, even though I too am wanting to pass the 20 or so cars in front.
There are particular makes of cars that predominately seem to be driven in this style and I often try to reason with myself that it isn't the type of driver but it is just that the car is so big that the driver fails to realise how close they are to the car in front.
I don't mean to suggest that you are a bad or arrogant driver but I am just trying to explain the reason why there is often such a comment made, like the one that upset you. I think it is fair to say that we all realise, that when we drive certain types of cars there will be an assumption made about us or our driving style, be it good or bad. I also drive cars where people are often quick to stereotype the type of driver or they way they are driven, I just keep my head down and try and make it better by one, rather than reacting.
I am completely on your side with that, I do feel because I choose to drive the "four ringed prestige" badge that some drivers react as if your part of the C**K brigade, which I resent.What I do find frustrating is the fact that I can be driving in a queue waiting for the cars in front to pull over so I can pass, when I get a driver behind that thinks that presenting their 'prestige' badge close enough in my rear view mirror should mean that I automatic move over, even though I too am wanting to pass the 20 or so cars in front.
There are particular makes of cars that predominately seem to be driven in this style and I often try to reason with myself that it isn't the type of driver but it is just that the car is so big that the driver fails to realise how close they are to the car in front.
I don't mean to suggest that you are a bad or arrogant driver but I am just trying to explain the reason why there is often such a comment made, like the one that upset you. I think it is fair to say that we all realise, that when we drive certain types of cars there will be an assumption made about us or our driving style, be it good or bad. I also drive cars where people are often quick to stereotype the type of driver or they way they are driven, I just keep my head down and try and make it better by one, rather than reacting.
I think they certainly have reduced the number and severity of hold ups on the sections that have been done around me, more often than not stopping the traffic from getting into stop start mode which itself causes massive tailbacks. Whilst sometimes they do show 40 or 50 for no apparent reason, I always assume it was something that recently cleared up. I'm for it, going fast on the motorway is boring anyway.
I'm not against the system, but it definitely needs work to make it more effective. I imagine it is an intermediary step which can be improved on. Eventually vehicles, roads etc will become a lot more intelligent and connected
Clearly there is a lot of unused capacity on our roads but rather than adressing the cause of the issue - educating those drivers tailgaiting causing stop start traffic, driving too fast for the conditions, poor lane discipline etc - the easiest option is to threaten speeding fines. The current system is a very blunt tool. Surely increasing how efficiently traffic uses current roads is a more intelligent way of reducing congestion, rather than building loads of new roads. I love driving, however in heavy traffic I would be more than happy to have an autonomous car take control. I look forward to the time when cars can communicate with each other and cruise in queues automatically 1 foot from each other. Traffic lights that sense you coming, that are aware of the local traffic conditions and can adjust to give priority to congested roads. When it's really quiet I'd also want restrictions lifted so I can nail the throttle and have some fun, but then pigs might fly
It's not going to be perfect straight away but, hopefully, it will get better. Maybe
Clearly there is a lot of unused capacity on our roads but rather than adressing the cause of the issue - educating those drivers tailgaiting causing stop start traffic, driving too fast for the conditions, poor lane discipline etc - the easiest option is to threaten speeding fines. The current system is a very blunt tool. Surely increasing how efficiently traffic uses current roads is a more intelligent way of reducing congestion, rather than building loads of new roads. I love driving, however in heavy traffic I would be more than happy to have an autonomous car take control. I look forward to the time when cars can communicate with each other and cruise in queues automatically 1 foot from each other. Traffic lights that sense you coming, that are aware of the local traffic conditions and can adjust to give priority to congested roads. When it's really quiet I'd also want restrictions lifted so I can nail the throttle and have some fun, but then pigs might fly
It's not going to be perfect straight away but, hopefully, it will get better. Maybe
Armagreggon said:
I'm not against the system, but it definitely needs work to make it more effective. I imagine it is an intermediary step which can be improved on. Eventually vehicles, roads etc will become a lot more intelligent and connected
Clearly there is a lot of unused capacity on our roads but rather than adressing the cause of the issue - educating those drivers tailgaiting causing stop start traffic, driving too fast for the conditions, poor lane discipline etc - the easiest option is to threaten speeding fines. The current system is a very blunt tool. Surely increasing how efficiently traffic uses current roads is a more intelligent way of reducing congestion, rather than building loads of new roads. I love driving, however in heavy traffic I would be more than happy to have an autonomous car take control. I look forward to the time when cars can communicate with each other and cruise in queues automatically 1 foot from each other. Traffic lights that sense you coming, that are aware of the local traffic conditions and can adjust to give priority to congested roads. When it's really quiet I'd also want restrictions lifted so I can nail the throttle and have some fun, but then pigs might fly
It's not going to be perfect straight away but, hopefully, it will get better. Maybe
'Smartness' is a one shot affair though.Clearly there is a lot of unused capacity on our roads but rather than adressing the cause of the issue - educating those drivers tailgaiting causing stop start traffic, driving too fast for the conditions, poor lane discipline etc - the easiest option is to threaten speeding fines. The current system is a very blunt tool. Surely increasing how efficiently traffic uses current roads is a more intelligent way of reducing congestion, rather than building loads of new roads. I love driving, however in heavy traffic I would be more than happy to have an autonomous car take control. I look forward to the time when cars can communicate with each other and cruise in queues automatically 1 foot from each other. Traffic lights that sense you coming, that are aware of the local traffic conditions and can adjust to give priority to congested roads. When it's really quiet I'd also want restrictions lifted so I can nail the throttle and have some fun, but then pigs might fly
It's not going to be perfect straight away but, hopefully, it will get better. Maybe
It adds X% capacity over the base capacity.
But throw another y% cars year on year onto a route and it'll be congested again within a matter of years.
Ultimately you need to build more roads or provide real viable alternatives, or alleviate the pressures on road use. Ie, build more houses where people want to work, along with other supporting infrastructure.
Dave
SMART motorways are a good idea in my opinion, but as has been said, they need to be managed more effectively. It is incredibly frustrating to see warning signs of animals, pedestrians, accidents etc when they do not materialise. I drove along a section of the M40 recently (not smart it must be said) but at 10.00pm at night the small signs that just display an orange speed in the central reservation were on at 50. This went on for approx 40 miles with no warning of why or when there might be an incident. In the end there wasn't one, but by 3 or 4 miles or so, I was back to doing 85. If I had stuck at 50 it would have added another 20-25 mins of journey time.
The thing that we really need to get a grip on in this country though is proper motorway driving. There are less people driving in the third lane than there used to be, granted. But all of these people now seem to sit in the middle lane of the motorway, overtaking nothing, just driving in a zombified state at the same speed as the car ahead. When I do my motorway commute I tend to stick at 70 for fuel economy purposes, and it is incredibly frustrating to keep having to pull out into the the third lane to overtake someone who has just slowed down to 60, knowing that if the car in front of them pulls in, they will accelerate back up to 80 as I am attempting to pass and pull back across.
I think you can put motorway driving into three suitable rules:
1. Keep left (really left not just the middle) unless overtaking. It should be quite difficult for someone to be able to undertake you.
2. Keep a consistent speed where it is possible
3. Allow suitable distance to the car in front so that there is a buffer to absorb slight speed variations without hitting the brakes
The thing that we really need to get a grip on in this country though is proper motorway driving. There are less people driving in the third lane than there used to be, granted. But all of these people now seem to sit in the middle lane of the motorway, overtaking nothing, just driving in a zombified state at the same speed as the car ahead. When I do my motorway commute I tend to stick at 70 for fuel economy purposes, and it is incredibly frustrating to keep having to pull out into the the third lane to overtake someone who has just slowed down to 60, knowing that if the car in front of them pulls in, they will accelerate back up to 80 as I am attempting to pass and pull back across.
I think you can put motorway driving into three suitable rules:
1. Keep left (really left not just the middle) unless overtaking. It should be quite difficult for someone to be able to undertake you.
2. Keep a consistent speed where it is possible
3. Allow suitable distance to the car in front so that there is a buffer to absorb slight speed variations without hitting the brakes
Excellent article
It's an all out war in motorists.
The temp speed limits they introduce to my mind and experience are solely to bring in revenue. I see these temp limits come in all the time. Still yet to actually see a good reason why except that they need to raise the revenue to pay for these camera sites. The Highways Agency confirmed that they pay £150,000 per site to install the equipment and· £25,000 per site per year to maintain the equipment.
Combined these hadecs cameras with the massive roll out of in the London and Greater London area of the new SpeedCurb digital cameras (I think it's a 10 fold increase as all the old empty gatso cameras are being replaced and from what I've seen, they all work) it is an all out war on motorists.
I had a clean licence for 20 years !
Picked up 2 speeding tickets in a matter of a few months. Not for excessive speeding but for being a few clicks over the limit on clear, dry, empty roads. Oh and 2 bus lane fines !!
Meanwhile the standard of driving is dramatically getting worse and worse and journey times are getting longer and longer.
65mph in the "fast" lane on a 4 lane motorway is the norm now on these sections.
2 lanes of trucks doing 60mph or less.
3rd lane of cars barely doing more than that
and the 4th lane full of cars doing 65mph.
It's an all out war in motorists.
The temp speed limits they introduce to my mind and experience are solely to bring in revenue. I see these temp limits come in all the time. Still yet to actually see a good reason why except that they need to raise the revenue to pay for these camera sites. The Highways Agency confirmed that they pay £150,000 per site to install the equipment and· £25,000 per site per year to maintain the equipment.
Combined these hadecs cameras with the massive roll out of in the London and Greater London area of the new SpeedCurb digital cameras (I think it's a 10 fold increase as all the old empty gatso cameras are being replaced and from what I've seen, they all work) it is an all out war on motorists.
I had a clean licence for 20 years !
Picked up 2 speeding tickets in a matter of a few months. Not for excessive speeding but for being a few clicks over the limit on clear, dry, empty roads. Oh and 2 bus lane fines !!
Meanwhile the standard of driving is dramatically getting worse and worse and journey times are getting longer and longer.
65mph in the "fast" lane on a 4 lane motorway is the norm now on these sections.
2 lanes of trucks doing 60mph or less.
3rd lane of cars barely doing more than that
and the 4th lane full of cars doing 65mph.
Are SMART motorways about traffic management, safety or revenue generation?
If they are about traffic management:
- Is outright speed (whether 40,50,70 etc) what causes traffic, or something else?
- What about the high number of cars on the road vs the road capacity, poor lane discipline and tailgating? What do SMART motorways do about those?
If they are about safety:
- Reducing the overall speed should lead to a decline in the number of serious incidents / fatalities. Which is a good thing.
- But at the cost of i) longer journey times and ii) more stressed and tired drivers.
- There is a balance to strike. You can please some of the people some of the time.......
And I don't think that there is an 'if' relating to revenue generation. That's obvious.
If they are about traffic management:
- Is outright speed (whether 40,50,70 etc) what causes traffic, or something else?
- What about the high number of cars on the road vs the road capacity, poor lane discipline and tailgating? What do SMART motorways do about those?
If they are about safety:
- Reducing the overall speed should lead to a decline in the number of serious incidents / fatalities. Which is a good thing.
- But at the cost of i) longer journey times and ii) more stressed and tired drivers.
- There is a balance to strike. You can please some of the people some of the time.......
And I don't think that there is an 'if' relating to revenue generation. That's obvious.
Mr_Sukebe said:
The solution is actually VERY simple. If drivers just ensured they had decent braking distances, traffic would flow massively more smoothly. Unfortunately, that's just NEVER going to happen unless we end up with autonomous vehicles.
I agree. So many congestion problems I see on my daily commute would be easily solved if everyone increased their braking distances.I often wonder why they don't have the "Keep Apart - Two Chevrons" signs and road markings across the WHOLE motorway network. They have it on parts of the M2 near me, but I reckon that a lot of people just aren't aware what a decent braking distance looks like, and so tend to sit too close to vehicles in front.
Smart Motorways help alleviate capacity issues with the current road network; but, I agree, need work and buy-in from every user to make it work.
Similar systems - speed limits, etc - have been used with success on rail networks, things like the London Underground having been boosted massively in terms of capacity by technology that allows more trains to use the network, speed-limited and distance-controlled. This works because the network has fewer variables.
On a motorway, everyone has to obey the limits; one standard speed, less "phantom jams" caused by heavy braking, less congestion. This importance of controlling speed leads to the draconian speeding policing (I assume).
The system is in its infancy and has an image problem currently - too few people think it works. Supplementary to whether it works or not, I think it is all fine and well extracting the utmost capacity from the current road network, but the ultimate answer will surely be - "build more road".
Similar systems - speed limits, etc - have been used with success on rail networks, things like the London Underground having been boosted massively in terms of capacity by technology that allows more trains to use the network, speed-limited and distance-controlled. This works because the network has fewer variables.
On a motorway, everyone has to obey the limits; one standard speed, less "phantom jams" caused by heavy braking, less congestion. This importance of controlling speed leads to the draconian speeding policing (I assume).
The system is in its infancy and has an image problem currently - too few people think it works. Supplementary to whether it works or not, I think it is all fine and well extracting the utmost capacity from the current road network, but the ultimate answer will surely be - "build more road".
Theophany said:
Probably not the most popular opinion here, but my real bugbear with HADECS is simple.
If there's a displayed speed limit on the overhead gantry, stick to it. You get caught? Tough s
t, be more attentive. It's when they display nothing at all (not NSL sign, they are actually blank) and you get clocked - that's what pisses me off.
Case in point: 7:00 on a Sunday morning last September I was clocked at 86mph on a completely empty stretch of the M5 just south of Bristol. It was absolutely empty, I was on the inside lane and there was no bugger around, visibility was perfect, the sun was out and the road surface was dry. I was clocked by one of those bloody HADECS cameras.
On the one hand, fair enough. I was speeding and I knew that these cameras have been known to 'randomly' pap motorists even when there is no indicated variable limit or indicated NSL. On the other hand, I severely doubt a Police Officer would have booked me for £100 and 3 points in that scenario. Because there is no context to the offence, there can be no discretion in the leniency of punishment for the offence.
And, if we're all honest here, this is what it comes down to. If you're daft enough to plough through 40mph variable limits with no idea of what's ahead then you're probably a bit dim. But if you safely judge a situation where it doesn't make a lick of difference if you're travelling at 76mph or 86mph (a camera won't flash you at 76mph, but at 86mph you're disqualified from speed awareness courses and thus points are unavoidable), it seems a bit ridiculous to claim this is anything but a cash cow.
Eh? So one the one hand, autonomous speed enforcement is okay, but when YOU get caught by it then it's bIf there's a displayed speed limit on the overhead gantry, stick to it. You get caught? Tough s
t, be more attentive. It's when they display nothing at all (not NSL sign, they are actually blank) and you get clocked - that's what pisses me off.Case in point: 7:00 on a Sunday morning last September I was clocked at 86mph on a completely empty stretch of the M5 just south of Bristol. It was absolutely empty, I was on the inside lane and there was no bugger around, visibility was perfect, the sun was out and the road surface was dry. I was clocked by one of those bloody HADECS cameras.
On the one hand, fair enough. I was speeding and I knew that these cameras have been known to 'randomly' pap motorists even when there is no indicated variable limit or indicated NSL. On the other hand, I severely doubt a Police Officer would have booked me for £100 and 3 points in that scenario. Because there is no context to the offence, there can be no discretion in the leniency of punishment for the offence.
And, if we're all honest here, this is what it comes down to. If you're daft enough to plough through 40mph variable limits with no idea of what's ahead then you're probably a bit dim. But if you safely judge a situation where it doesn't make a lick of difference if you're travelling at 76mph or 86mph (a camera won't flash you at 76mph, but at 86mph you're disqualified from speed awareness courses and thus points are unavoidable), it seems a bit ridiculous to claim this is anything but a cash cow.
ks? 
As for no context to the offence; if they're being used for traffic management i.e. to reduce a queue up ahead, then financial punishment is hardly just is it?
If they're being used to control traffic speeds due to an actual incident (debris in the road/collision etc) then I'm perfectly bloody capable of using these wonderful things I have called "eyes" to make a judgement as to the appropriateness of my speed.
Smart motorways are a waste of money IMO.
You do see a short-term benefit when they are initially implemented, but on the sections that have been around for a number of years (eg; M25 Western section) they are useless as traffic volumes increase and make them pretty much redundant as their useful operating range becomes so narrow - either they are lit up at 50/60 when traffic can easily travel more quickly, or more frequently, they are lit up at 40 when traffic is at a stand still.
Hundreds of millions of pounds wasted.
When there's lots of traffic it's going to travel slowly... it's not rocket science.
So much of our roads capacity is wasted by people not keeping left it would have been more sensible to invest a much smaller amount of money educating people to use the correct lanes.
You do see a short-term benefit when they are initially implemented, but on the sections that have been around for a number of years (eg; M25 Western section) they are useless as traffic volumes increase and make them pretty much redundant as their useful operating range becomes so narrow - either they are lit up at 50/60 when traffic can easily travel more quickly, or more frequently, they are lit up at 40 when traffic is at a stand still.
Hundreds of millions of pounds wasted.
When there's lots of traffic it's going to travel slowly... it's not rocket science.
So much of our roads capacity is wasted by people not keeping left it would have been more sensible to invest a much smaller amount of money educating people to use the correct lanes.
delays said:
but the ultimate answer will surely be - "build more road".
Exactly.There are peak times where this capacity is needed, but if it's already at capacity without these systems, it won't be long until it's at or over capacity WITH these systems. And that just puts more strain on the networks off the motorways, like junctions etc.
There are many motorways around where you queue simply to get through junctions, never mind the flow issues on straight sections which can be 'smart' managed.
It's probably worth doing this, but the idea that it'll mean new roads won't need to be built is a bit of a joke.
Building a more robust motorway network to alleviate loads is always going to be more effective generally.
Ie, M62. They should build an M64 that runs from Scarborough back around York, over the top of Leeds as the A59, and meet up with the M6 between Manchester and the Lakes.
A lot of traffic that runs on the M62 wants to head either North or South on the M6 or A1 or M1, and it's the only route over. Offering more routes across would reduce pollution, travel times, congestion, improve local transport links and allow business to operate from more areas, provide reasonable commutes from more areas reliving pressure on housing in specific transport corridors etc.
Given how many years they've been tossing around on the M62, by the time the work is finished, the new capacity provided by being 'smart' will have been exceeded any way, so no benefits will probably be felt by users.
I bet it's cost a small fortune too, vs building a new motorway entirely.
Welcome to dumbass Britain.
Dave
I hate everything about this! What sort of society do people want to live within for God's sake?
What happened to the early pledge of this goverment that traffic cameras were to be reduced, and ONLY focussed on safety?
And how can the government quickly find the funds for schemes (scams) like this, given the apparent lack of funds for everything else? One eye on the returns me thinks.
IF the ethos is that exceeding speed limits is now akin to rape and murder, why doesn't any politician support GPS speed limiters on all new cars? The technology exists, and is relatively inexpensive. Not my idea of progress, but if the view of speed is now that it's 'evil'........... Of course there's no ongoing revenue in that.
Are motorways not statistically the safest roads of all?
In my opinion, all of this spying and 'policing by camera', is just a horrible direction in which to be travelling. As Benjamin Franklin said, "Those who sacrifice liberty for security, will enjoy neither."
What happened to the early pledge of this goverment that traffic cameras were to be reduced, and ONLY focussed on safety?
And how can the government quickly find the funds for schemes (scams) like this, given the apparent lack of funds for everything else? One eye on the returns me thinks.
IF the ethos is that exceeding speed limits is now akin to rape and murder, why doesn't any politician support GPS speed limiters on all new cars? The technology exists, and is relatively inexpensive. Not my idea of progress, but if the view of speed is now that it's 'evil'........... Of course there's no ongoing revenue in that.
Are motorways not statistically the safest roads of all?
In my opinion, all of this spying and 'policing by camera', is just a horrible direction in which to be travelling. As Benjamin Franklin said, "Those who sacrifice liberty for security, will enjoy neither."
Quhet said:
Flipatron said:
Shame the UK cant just man up and build more motorways.
Where would you build them? I can't really think of anywhere where a new motorway would solve everythingI live down here and to get anywhere along the coast to the west especially ina truck has to be done via the M25.
Gosh, its good to hear from an expert on civil engineering, traffic management, the law, accident prevention, statistics, national budget frameworks, infrastructure planning and police deployment criteria. And who also has the ability to carry out project evaluation, before the project is finished.
Gaz. said:
As above, that mumsnet thread on Friday highlighted the shocking thought process of a sizable chunk of a popular forum. For those that didn't read it:
OP sees a car starting to overtake her on a single carriageway road, so she speeds up, then she brakes [as does the other car] preventing the other car from tucking in behind, which then has a serious head on accident behind the OP, who drives off on her way to work.
Do you have a link to that thread? Sounds shocking!OP sees a car starting to overtake her on a single carriageway road, so she speeds up, then she brakes [as does the other car] preventing the other car from tucking in behind, which then has a serious head on accident behind the OP, who drives off on her way to work.
I actually think managed motorways are a fundamentally good idea – provided - they are utilised properly, and I get the distinct impression the ones in the UK often aren't.
Using a managed graduated speed drop prior to an area of accurately measured high congestion at rush hour, thus minimising/avoiding stop-start hell for a few miles - excellent use, and I doubt many would have a problem with it.
The issue comes where it ether a) Isn't functioning correctly or b) is hijacked & used to punish in the name of the ingrained speed is bad ideology, probably through the apparent sensible justification of 'lower speeds mean reduced accidents' supported by vague BS metrics. The exact reasoning which has given us the permanent 50mph average speed section on the M3 southbound / M25 junction.
Like many I have seen the ones active randomly on a pretty much empty M25, displaying a 60 or 50 limit. A quick glance at a google maps traffic overlay confirms what is obvious - free flow traffic in every direction for 10's of miles.
System fault, delayed updates or deliberate? I don't know. What I do know is that I would have been unfairly punished had I not slowed down, and as a result I don't trust them.
delays said:
Smart Motorways help alleviate capacity issues with the current road network; but, I agree, need work and buy-in from every user to make it work.
Similar systems - speed limits, etc - have been used with success on rail networks, things like the London Underground having been boosted massively in terms of capacity by technology that allows more trains to use the network, speed-limited and distance-controlled. This works because the network has fewer variables.
On a motorway, everyone has to obey the limits; one standard speed, less "phantom jams" caused by heavy braking, less congestion. This importance of controlling speed leads to the draconian speeding policing (I assume).
The system is in its infancy and has an image problem currently - too few people think it works. Supplementary to whether it works or not, I think it is all fine and well extracting the utmost capacity from the current road network, but the ultimate answer will surely be - "build more road".
So basically what you are saying it will work if we switch to driverless cars like the LUL driverless trains.Similar systems - speed limits, etc - have been used with success on rail networks, things like the London Underground having been boosted massively in terms of capacity by technology that allows more trains to use the network, speed-limited and distance-controlled. This works because the network has fewer variables.
On a motorway, everyone has to obey the limits; one standard speed, less "phantom jams" caused by heavy braking, less congestion. This importance of controlling speed leads to the draconian speeding policing (I assume).
The system is in its infancy and has an image problem currently - too few people think it works. Supplementary to whether it works or not, I think it is all fine and well extracting the utmost capacity from the current road network, but the ultimate answer will surely be - "build more road".
The LUL upgrade works (signal upgrades) increased the number of segments on the line and therefore increased the number of trains that the line can handle at anyone time. in addition adding extra carriages to trains by extending platforms combined to increase overall capacity.
Reducing speed limits reduces the number of trains that can pass a point in a given time, and since trains don't suffer from phantom jams there would be no point in doing this anyhow.
Allowing the fat controller to take over our motorways because they have become more dangerous as smart motorways to supposedly increase capacity is not an acceptable solution, when what we really need is the far more safer larger motorways which will work.
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