RE: Smart motorways are dumb: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
I live near to the 20-or so miles of glacial traffic on the M1 and regularly see 2 problems at play:
1. Overpopulation (draw your own conclusions on that)
2. People still don't know what an AVERAGE speed camera is and perform emergency stops so as to pass them at 40 / 50 / whatever, which of course causes traffic hold ups and does nothing to reduce their average speed.
1. Overpopulation (draw your own conclusions on that)
2. People still don't know what an AVERAGE speed camera is and perform emergency stops so as to pass them at 40 / 50 / whatever, which of course causes traffic hold ups and does nothing to reduce their average speed.
CS400 said:
Two cars rather than one, meaning that they have got a bit of space between their rear end and the front of an Audi, maybe after being tailgated by it over the last few miles? 
So that's a good enough reason to drive unsafely? Just because you believe other people are doing it?Probably not the most popular opinion here, but my real bugbear with HADECS is simple.
If there's a displayed speed limit on the overhead gantry, stick to it. You get caught? Tough s
t, be more attentive. It's when they display nothing at all (not NSL sign, they are actually blank) and you get clocked - that's what pisses me off.
Case in point: 7:00 on a Sunday morning last September I was clocked at 86mph on a completely empty stretch of the M5 just south of Bristol. It was absolutely empty, I was on the inside lane and there was no bugger around, visibility was perfect, the sun was out and the road surface was dry. I was clocked by one of those bloody HADECS cameras.
On the one hand, fair enough. I was speeding and I knew that these cameras have been known to 'randomly' pap motorists even when there is no indicated variable limit or indicated NSL. On the other hand, I severely doubt a Police Officer would have booked me for £100 and 3 points in that scenario. Because there is no context to the offence, there can be no discretion in the leniency of punishment for the offence.
And, if we're all honest here, this is what it comes down to. If you're daft enough to plough through 40mph variable limits with no idea of what's ahead then you're probably a bit dim. But if you safely judge a situation where it doesn't make a lick of difference if you're travelling at 76mph or 86mph (a camera won't flash you at 76mph, but at 86mph you're disqualified from speed awareness courses and thus points are unavoidable), it seems a bit ridiculous to claim this is anything but a cash cow.
If there's a displayed speed limit on the overhead gantry, stick to it. You get caught? Tough s
t, be more attentive. It's when they display nothing at all (not NSL sign, they are actually blank) and you get clocked - that's what pisses me off.Case in point: 7:00 on a Sunday morning last September I was clocked at 86mph on a completely empty stretch of the M5 just south of Bristol. It was absolutely empty, I was on the inside lane and there was no bugger around, visibility was perfect, the sun was out and the road surface was dry. I was clocked by one of those bloody HADECS cameras.
On the one hand, fair enough. I was speeding and I knew that these cameras have been known to 'randomly' pap motorists even when there is no indicated variable limit or indicated NSL. On the other hand, I severely doubt a Police Officer would have booked me for £100 and 3 points in that scenario. Because there is no context to the offence, there can be no discretion in the leniency of punishment for the offence.
And, if we're all honest here, this is what it comes down to. If you're daft enough to plough through 40mph variable limits with no idea of what's ahead then you're probably a bit dim. But if you safely judge a situation where it doesn't make a lick of difference if you're travelling at 76mph or 86mph (a camera won't flash you at 76mph, but at 86mph you're disqualified from speed awareness courses and thus points are unavoidable), it seems a bit ridiculous to claim this is anything but a cash cow.
Mr Whippy said:
And no doubt you'll all go vote for Consevatives in a month or so, letting TTIP take a hold and seeing all our roads become run privately, satellite track/charged on top of all the other charges, and they'll probably be no nicer to drive on because all the extra profits will go to support the 'investors' who own the companies that run them.
It was a Labour Government that screwed up the toll charging on the Dartford Bridge(M25) after promising it would be free! Under pressure from the current Conservative Government the first steps have been made to return that hope. Any other Government apart from Conservatives and it is likely we would end up with no one being able to afford to keep their cars on the road due to such high unemployment or because of continued borrowing with no sound financial planning, bit of the country being sold off (as Labour sold off a load of the countries Gold at half price!).Also TTIP wont just 'take hold of our roads' just because a Conservative Government is elected. It is far more likely to be refused than it is to proceed as these kind of things have to go through numerous processes first.
what some people don't know is ,on the M62 at leeds ,there is speed limits change to 60 or 50 all the time , which lasts miles ,and the cameras will take a AVERAGE speed off your car. so I see all the cars and vans going past me 5mph over the limit shown ,not realising by the end of that speed limit section they will be getting a fine. I think this section made 1.5 million in the last 12 months !!
I agree with some of the points raised in the article especially around the apparently overzealous use of restrictions for apparently little or no reason.
Overall though, I'm afraid to say I think they work.
The stretch of the M42 from the M40 through to the M6 is a case in point. I use this often and before traffic management, a journey of a few junctions up to Birmingham International Airport could take me 10 minutes or 45 minutes, a complete lottery. Since active management its always 15 mins, even at peak time.
Before active management, traffic went something like this: Everyone accelerated up to (or beyond) the national speed limit. Once the desired speed has been reached, slam on the brakes and come to a near or total stop. Repeat.
Eventually, someone somewhere would get bored of this game and forget the braking part. Cue heavy rear end smash and closure of the motorway while the wreckage was cleared up.
After traffic management, most calmly sit at the prescribed speed and cruise along, no stress and usually getting through faster than before.
The added bonus is that most are still too terrified to drive in the hard shoulder or 'active lane' meaning those more enlightened drivers get their own personal lane to cruise along in.
Overall though, I'm afraid to say I think they work.
The stretch of the M42 from the M40 through to the M6 is a case in point. I use this often and before traffic management, a journey of a few junctions up to Birmingham International Airport could take me 10 minutes or 45 minutes, a complete lottery. Since active management its always 15 mins, even at peak time.
Before active management, traffic went something like this: Everyone accelerated up to (or beyond) the national speed limit. Once the desired speed has been reached, slam on the brakes and come to a near or total stop. Repeat.
Eventually, someone somewhere would get bored of this game and forget the braking part. Cue heavy rear end smash and closure of the motorway while the wreckage was cleared up.
After traffic management, most calmly sit at the prescribed speed and cruise along, no stress and usually getting through faster than before.
The added bonus is that most are still too terrified to drive in the hard shoulder or 'active lane' meaning those more enlightened drivers get their own personal lane to cruise along in.
Mandown46 said:
Some interesting comments there.
Road charging, I have heard nothing about it being planned for the future, to be honest, the political ststorm it would cause would mean that it would be a lot of years, and goverments away.
In terms of the Highways Agency now being Highways England, all thats changed so far is a few logo's, the way the phone is answered, and how the budget cycles, as I understand it, it means that longer term projects can be planned out better, without the fear that it will get scrapped next year.
There is no pressure to somehow find a profit.
Because I'm a bit bored of how much of a bashing its taking, (fyi, the guy kicking off about cycling to work, I tried it for about a year, didn't like it, went back to my motorbike)
How would you all solve the problems, bearing in mind you can't build extra motorways, you can't widen anything, you have zero control over Traffic Police budgets (which are still being pulled back from the motorway, frustratingly) you will have massive congestion around Cities twice a day, no one wants to obey either speed limits, or lane closures.
Im genuinely interested, because from where I sit, the system isnt perfect (oh, the MIDAS detection system is being improved on by the way, looks like its going to be implemented using radar instead of loops in the road) but works pretty well 99% of the time
The former... go read about TTIP.Road charging, I have heard nothing about it being planned for the future, to be honest, the political s
tstorm it would cause would mean that it would be a lot of years, and goverments away.In terms of the Highways Agency now being Highways England, all thats changed so far is a few logo's, the way the phone is answered, and how the budget cycles, as I understand it, it means that longer term projects can be planned out better, without the fear that it will get scrapped next year.
There is no pressure to somehow find a profit.
Because I'm a bit bored of how much of a bashing its taking, (fyi, the guy kicking off about cycling to work, I tried it for about a year, didn't like it, went back to my motorbike)
How would you all solve the problems, bearing in mind you can't build extra motorways, you can't widen anything, you have zero control over Traffic Police budgets (which are still being pulled back from the motorway, frustratingly) you will have massive congestion around Cities twice a day, no one wants to obey either speed limits, or lane closures.
Im genuinely interested, because from where I sit, the system isnt perfect (oh, the MIDAS detection system is being improved on by the way, looks like its going to be implemented using radar instead of loops in the road) but works pretty well 99% of the time
The systems and motivations to have businesses running "public services" are ramping up increasingly. It's happening in the NHS on a small scale now.
Why? Well probably because private business can offload the ~ £1.4T of unfunded public sector benefits/pensions liabilities better than the government can... over a period of time of course.
Latter.
There is money to the end of the world to pay for all this stuff if it really improves infrastructure for the benefit of GDP.
If you cut costs of transport or time in transit the savings are immediate and generate wealth creation... real wealth creation, not pretend wealth. Real actual savings for road users, so they might go spend money elsewhere at shops with their extra free time.
Instead of spending money on bail-outs and QE to try encourage banks to lend, we should just spend money directly on proven infrastructure investments. Not HS2 stuff, but adding new motorways, dual carriageways, by-passes, etc... get people from A to B faster and cheaper today en-mass.
As for planning. CPO and just ignore opposition. The country either stands still and goes to s
t, or it progresses.Too long we've had a bunch of self-serving retards running the show. We need strong, long-term forward thinking leadership and policy.
This isn't 'impossible' stuff... it's just us making excuses for our own s
tness. Go look at China and how they do big infrastructure projects. They make us look like complete cretins.Dave
My biggest issue with this kind of policing is that it takes the decision of "what speed is appropriate for the conditions?" from the driver and gives it to someone sitting in a control room. Which somehow doesn't seem like a great idea.
It also suggests that the authorities think that people are too stupid to make a decision for themselves, which is a little worrying!
It also suggests that the authorities think that people are too stupid to make a decision for themselves, which is a little worrying!
Coddy85 said:
And also have the worst traffic jams in the world......
Due to high demand.But take a look at all their other projects. They see that the future potential is in the infrastructure.
The UK seems to have taken an approach about as distant as the next election, so we get a 4 year plan at best. China is building stuff that will last a lifetime or more!
Before we even finish half the interesting stuff we plan, it's screwed before it's finished. Just look at the two new aircraft carriers with no aircraft to go on them
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
Due to high demand.
But take a look at all their other projects. They see that the future potential is in the infrastructure.
The UK seems to have taken an approach about as distant as the next election, so we get a 4 year plan at best. China is building stuff that will last a lifetime or more!
Before we even finish half the interesting stuff we plan, it's screwed before it's finished. Just look at the two new aircraft carriers with no aircraft to go on them
Dave
That I can agree with. Britain hasn't manufactured anything decent in while. Not on it's own anyway. 4 or 5 year plans are not good enough for infrastructure and services. They need to be generational.But take a look at all their other projects. They see that the future potential is in the infrastructure.
The UK seems to have taken an approach about as distant as the next election, so we get a 4 year plan at best. China is building stuff that will last a lifetime or more!
Before we even finish half the interesting stuff we plan, it's screwed before it's finished. Just look at the two new aircraft carriers with no aircraft to go on them
Dave
Politically though, it was a Labour government that decided to sell the Harrier (at a cut price I may add, they were going to scrap it but the US snapped them off our hands, shows how much they were actually worth) I saw this first hand before I left the military.
Anyway back to conventional transport, It makes so much more sense to sort the highway system. I mean who really cares if I can go from Birmingham New Street to Euston 12 minutes quicker than I already can? We can't even plan for a winter properly for our networks!
In my experience the 'smart' motorway simply doesn't work. My guess is that it's down to both the drivers and the system being at fault. Some drivers, to put it plainly, are fking stupid. They can't handle traffic, they don't know how to drive in it, so they cause a start stop effect constantly and try to stick to the bumper in front, retards. At the same time I've seen gantries set speeds that just don't make sense. I've been stationary under a 50mph, while on the other hand I've had to drop down to 60mph for no reason at all.
Rubberneckers should also be shot. If you want to be a nosey, look up the crash on the internet when you get home.
king stupid. They can't handle traffic, they don't know how to drive in it, so they cause a start stop effect constantly and try to stick to the bumper in front, retards. At the same time I've seen gantries set speeds that just don't make sense. I've been stationary under a 50mph, while on the other hand I've had to drop down to 60mph for no reason at all. Rubberneckers should also be shot. If you want to be a nosey
, look up the crash on the internet when you get home. Mandown46 said:
NelsonP said:
My biggest issue with this kind of policing is that it takes the decision of "what speed is appropriate for the conditions?" from the driver and gives it to someone sitting in a control room. Which somehow doesn't seem like a great idea.
It also suggests that the authorities think that people are too stupid to make a decision for themselves, which is a little worrying!
Not so much. we have stopped signing for a lot of things that people can 'see', so no more spray or snow signs for example, also, we don't set a speed for weather conditions, trusting instead that drivers will 'drive to the conditions'It also suggests that the authorities think that people are too stupid to make a decision for themselves, which is a little worrying!
Coddy85 said:
CS400 said:
Two cars rather than one, meaning that they have got a bit of space between their rear end and the front of an Audi, maybe after being tailgated by it over the last few miles?
So that's a good enough reason to drive unsafely? Just because you believe other people are doing it?What I do find frustrating is the fact that I can be driving in a queue waiting for the cars in front to pull over so I can pass, when I get a driver behind that thinks that presenting their 'prestige' badge close enough in my rear view mirror should mean that I automatic move over, even though I too am wanting to pass the 20 or so cars in front.
There are particular makes of cars that predominately seem to be driven in this style and I often try to reason with myself that it isn't the type of driver but it is just that the car is so big that the driver fails to realise how close they are to the car in front.
I don't mean to suggest that you are a bad or arrogant driver but I am just trying to explain the reason why there is often such a comment made, like the one that upset you. I think it is fair to say that we all realise, that when we drive certain types of cars there will be an assumption made about us or our driving style, be it good or bad. I also drive cars where people are often quick to stereotype the type of driver or they way they are driven, I just keep my head down and try and make it better by one, rather than reacting.
Mandown46 said:
jturn said:
I share your frustration after seemingly only managing to hit 70 mph for about 10 minutes of my regular 2 hour journey up/down the M6 between Birmingham and Manchester recently. Wasn't the point of the motorway in the first place that a higher average speed than existing A-roads could be achieved?
Another example of failing to inform drivers that really infuriates me is the "M6 JXX - JXX Long Delays" matrix messages. If I'm on a motorway or in an area I'm not familiar with, I have no chance of fishing out a map book or pulling up google maps on my phone (illegally) to find an alternative route so I just end ploughing headlong into the delays I know are waiting for me but have no means of avoiding. Wouldn't "Use AXXX for Wherever" be a useful addition to these messages?
That's really a problem you need to sort out with your driving. you have been told where the problems are, if you want to keep going into it, thats all on you. Another example of failing to inform drivers that really infuriates me is the "M6 JXX - JXX Long Delays" matrix messages. If I'm on a motorway or in an area I'm not familiar with, I have no chance of fishing out a map book or pulling up google maps on my phone (illegally) to find an alternative route so I just end ploughing headlong into the delays I know are waiting for me but have no means of avoiding. Wouldn't "Use AXXX for Wherever" be a useful addition to these messages?
You can't sign for every possible route each driver might want to take, often, the diversion route (which has to be pre-approved) can take longer to drive than the congestion will delay you, that's a choice the individual needs to take, the information is all there, be it on the signs, satnav, radio, internet, or calling a hotline. Individual's choice as to whether they use it or not.
For example:
M6 J13 - J15 Long Delays
M6 J13 (Cannock) - J15 (Stoke) Long Delays
There's no contest for me. I realise the space available on a matrix sign might be an issue.
leedsutd1 said:
what some people don't know is ,on the M62 at leeds ,there is speed limits change to 60 or 50 all the time , which lasts miles ,and the cameras will take a AVERAGE speed off your car. so I see all the cars and vans going past me 5mph over the limit shown ,not realising by the end of that speed limit section they will be getting a fine. I think this section made 1.5 million in the last 12 months !!
Do you have anything at all to back this up?I think the thing here is the general 'Dumbing down' level involved, as has been mentioned limits are arbitrary and even in force on some stretches in clear conditions at night. They are ALL about slowing down, if it were linked to 80mph limits when conditions are clear, it infers a 'decision' has actually been made.
The information is 'old' and often unclear and left on long after an incident has been cleared / gone away, again leading to mistrust and general tutting.
If they want to call them intelligent them make them just that, it just seems like unmanaged traffic management, and that leads me and others to think its just about money.
The information is 'old' and often unclear and left on long after an incident has been cleared / gone away, again leading to mistrust and general tutting.
If they want to call them intelligent them make them just that, it just seems like unmanaged traffic management, and that leads me and others to think its just about money.
CS400 said:
It was a Labour Government that screwed up the toll charging on the Dartford Bridge(M25) after promising it would be free! Under pressure from the current Conservative Government the first steps have been made to return that hope. Any other Government apart from Conservatives and it is likely we would end up with no one being able to afford to keep their cars on the road due to such high unemployment or because of continued borrowing with no sound financial planning, bit of the country being sold off (as Labour sold off a load of the countries Gold at half price!).
Also TTIP wont just 'take hold of our roads' just because a Conservative Government is elected. It is far more likely to be refused than it is to proceed as these kind of things have to go through numerous processes first.
The latter has to be seen.Also TTIP wont just 'take hold of our roads' just because a Conservative Government is elected. It is far more likely to be refused than it is to proceed as these kind of things have to go through numerous processes first.
The Conservatives, to do the former, will likely have to do more of the latter.
There is no doubt we're between a rock and a hard place. There is no easy way out... but having stuff like TTIP hovering over our public services like NHS and infrastructure bodies isn't exactly reassuring.
I'd rather TTIP not be there, than be there and only a weak moment away from a politician of any colour giving away control of our services for a quick buck short term to help buy votes from the feckless... which all colours are capable of!
But in the end this is where sites like PH should step up imo.
They're a motoring site but the best they can achieve is a crappy rant about roads, rather than an in-depth look into the issues and lobby the government, with the backing of a huge amount of members, the ABD, and RAC for example, to get some positive stuff for the road infrastructure into the manifestos for the elections.
PH is starting to smell of the same bulls
t that pervades parliament these days. Cushy talking shop jobs provided but nothing but hot air escaping.CS400 said:
Nope, you may have noticed I made the comment somewhat in jest. I don't do it (and I don't tailgate) but I am just pointing up how some drivers seem to react.
What I do find frustrating is the fact that I can be driving in a queue waiting for the cars in front to pull over so I can pass, when I get a driver behind that thinks that presenting their 'prestige' badge close enough in my rear view mirror should mean that I automatic move over, even though I too am wanting to pass the 20 or so cars in front.
There are particular makes of cars that predominately seem to be driven in this style and I often try to reason with myself that it isn't the type of driver but it is just that the car is so big that the driver fails to realise how close they are to the car in front.
I don't mean to suggest that you are a bad or arrogant driver but I am just trying to explain the reason why there is often such a comment made, like the one that upset you. I think it is fair to say that we all realise, that when we drive certain types of cars there will be an assumption made about us or our driving style, be it good or bad. I also drive cars where people are often quick to stereotype the type of driver or they way they are driven, I just keep my head down and try and make it better by one, rather than reacting.
I am completely on your side with that, I do feel because I choose to drive the "four ringed prestige" badge that some drivers react as if your part of the C**K brigade, which I resent.What I do find frustrating is the fact that I can be driving in a queue waiting for the cars in front to pull over so I can pass, when I get a driver behind that thinks that presenting their 'prestige' badge close enough in my rear view mirror should mean that I automatic move over, even though I too am wanting to pass the 20 or so cars in front.
There are particular makes of cars that predominately seem to be driven in this style and I often try to reason with myself that it isn't the type of driver but it is just that the car is so big that the driver fails to realise how close they are to the car in front.
I don't mean to suggest that you are a bad or arrogant driver but I am just trying to explain the reason why there is often such a comment made, like the one that upset you. I think it is fair to say that we all realise, that when we drive certain types of cars there will be an assumption made about us or our driving style, be it good or bad. I also drive cars where people are often quick to stereotype the type of driver or they way they are driven, I just keep my head down and try and make it better by one, rather than reacting.
leedsutd1 said:
what some people don't know is ,on the M62 at leeds ,there is speed limits change to 60 or 50 all the time , which lasts miles ,and the cameras will take a AVERAGE speed off your car. so I see all the cars and vans going past me 5mph over the limit shown ,not realising by the end of that speed limit section they will be getting a fine. I think this section made 1.5 million in the last 12 months !!
Source?I'm not aware of average cameras in operation near Leeds. The only M62 average cameras in operation I am aware of at the moment are over by Manchester.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff