HGV vs caravan smash on the M6
Discussion
barker22 said:
There is two separate incidents in that clip. The second smack is 100% the CRV's fault.
I still think it should all go as the CRV's fault, however the truck driver could have handled it better.
When you watch, the point at which the CRV starts to cross, look at where the caravan is, the door of the caravan isn't visible. Looking up the caravan specs its a Bailey Pegasus GT65 and looking at the placement of the door its one of the larger models which puts it at 7.4m long minimum.
http://www.baileypegasusgt65.co.uk/bailey-pegasus-...
This means that over 2/3rds the length of that caravan hasn't even entered the lane yet and it just in't going to fit with the CRV's current trajectory.
The snapshot above is the point where you can be certain that that vehicle is coming over ready or not.
If the trucker had Emergency stopped at this point then in my mind that would put the CRV solely at fault anyway as that's a complete fail on a driving test. Causing another road user to change speed/direction which would be a serious fail. Or just plain dangerous driving.
Even if the truck was stopped dead at this point in the clip(which it isn't) the CRV will cross over the solid white line which is illegal in itself and should carry a 3 point penalty. Up to this point in the clip the trucker hasn't actually done anything wrong.
That picture does highlight a point made earlier though - the relative positioning of the truck and Scenic possibly meant the CRV driver thought there was a larger gap and was going for that, saw the scenic and found he had nowhere to go, hoped the truck driver would help but in fact the truck driver did the opposite and made no attempt to avoid a collision. It looks (and sounds from his comments) pretty much like he decided he was big enough not to get hurt whatever the outcome so he was going to drive as if he hadn't seen the CRV, but he obviously had, probably well before the camera did. But it was OK, because he had a camera so could show that he did nothing wrong, in his opinion.I still think it should all go as the CRV's fault, however the truck driver could have handled it better.
When you watch, the point at which the CRV starts to cross, look at where the caravan is, the door of the caravan isn't visible. Looking up the caravan specs its a Bailey Pegasus GT65 and looking at the placement of the door its one of the larger models which puts it at 7.4m long minimum.
http://www.baileypegasusgt65.co.uk/bailey-pegasus-...
This means that over 2/3rds the length of that caravan hasn't even entered the lane yet and it just in't going to fit with the CRV's current trajectory.
The snapshot above is the point where you can be certain that that vehicle is coming over ready or not.
If the trucker had Emergency stopped at this point then in my mind that would put the CRV solely at fault anyway as that's a complete fail on a driving test. Causing another road user to change speed/direction which would be a serious fail. Or just plain dangerous driving.
Even if the truck was stopped dead at this point in the clip(which it isn't) the CRV will cross over the solid white line which is illegal in itself and should carry a 3 point penalty. Up to this point in the clip the trucker hasn't actually done anything wrong.
At the point of the picture it didn't require an emergency stop, just a slow down. If the driver behind the truck was awake they would have seen this happening and know they may have to slow down due to the situation, and maybe were already doing so. I very much doubt the truck driver thought much about that, he was too busy blocking the gap to consider braking, let alone what might be behind him in my view.
The CRV driver shouldn't have started from where he was, and certainly shouldn't have continued either, but hte truck driver could have avoided it without any other incident.
r44flyer said:
Wow. HGV driver caused that 100%. He needs to control his road rage and get a better attitude as a professional driver. All he had to do was shake his head in disbelief and brake to let him in. Nobody 'won'.
This.HGV driver was 75% to blame (imo) for being stubborn.
Caravanman really should have braked before and pulled in behind the HGV, so 25% to blame.
Anyhows, whatever, could easily have been avoided.
Wacky Racer said:
r44flyer said:
Wow. HGV driver caused that 100%. He needs to control his road rage and get a better attitude as a professional driver. All he had to do was shake his head in disbelief and brake to let him in. Nobody 'won'.
This.HGV driver was 75% to blame (imo) for being stubborn.
Caravanman really should have braked before and pulled in behind the HGV, so 25% to blame.
Anyhows, whatever, could easily have been avoided.
DrDoofenshmirtz said:
Maybe he simply forgot he was towing a caravan?
you have to wonder - the car alone would have been a tight fit, the caravan too, no bloody way, not without an emergency stop from the lorry/truck.I can't belive that people are still saying that the crv driver is less at fault.
DervVW said:
DrDoofenshmirtz said:
Maybe he simply forgot he was towing a caravan?
you have to wonder - the car alone would have been a tight fit, the caravan too, no bloody way, not without an emergency stop from the lorry/truck.I can't belive that people are still saying that the crv driver is less at fault.
Wacky Racer said:
This.
HGV driver was 75% to blame (imo) for being stubborn.
Caravanman really should have braked before and pulled in behind the HGV, so 25% to blame.
Anyhows, whatever, could easily have been avoided.
I'd go the other way - it is the responsibility of the vehicle trying to pull in to ensure there is enough space to complete the maneuver safely. You're always going to come across people who will deliberately drive six inches off the vehicle in front to stop anyone getting in (as in this case), but that's no excuse for trying to squeeze a car and caravan into that space. The CRV driver either wasn't paying attention or made a massive assumption, the end result being him stuck to the front of the lorry.HGV driver was 75% to blame (imo) for being stubborn.
Caravanman really should have braked before and pulled in behind the HGV, so 25% to blame.
Anyhows, whatever, could easily have been avoided.
It's obvious both parties could have avoided this situation, should definitely go 50/50 in my opinion.
Regardless of whether the caravan driver made an honest navigational mistake or was "queue jumping" he assumed indicating gave him right of way and was idiotic enough to keep driving, even after repeated contact. Total tunnel vision, no thought process at all for example "crap I've ballsed this up, I'll carry on to the next junction" or even "that lorry isn't playing ball, perhaps I should stop on the hatchings and hope someone else is more forgiving".
Then the lorry driver was being a chest beating moron too, he could have braked, admiteddly sharply, and avoided the whole thing.
Definitely a case of two idiots finding each other.
Regardless of whether the caravan driver made an honest navigational mistake or was "queue jumping" he assumed indicating gave him right of way and was idiotic enough to keep driving, even after repeated contact. Total tunnel vision, no thought process at all for example "crap I've ballsed this up, I'll carry on to the next junction" or even "that lorry isn't playing ball, perhaps I should stop on the hatchings and hope someone else is more forgiving".
Then the lorry driver was being a chest beating moron too, he could have braked, admiteddly sharply, and avoided the whole thing.
Definitely a case of two idiots finding each other.
swerni said:
Very easily avoided.
The moron in the caravan could haves just gone to the next junction and turned back.
Had the CRV driver not been so inept or inconsiderate, would never have happened.
Maybe he's learnt a lesson
This. Too much bravado on show here, the HGV driver teaching the guy a lesson for not queuing like everyone else, then trying to cut in, and the CRV driver for being too lazy to queue or drive down to the next junction. Completely avoidable, but the CRV driver is probably more at fault. The moron in the caravan could haves just gone to the next junction and turned back.
Had the CRV driver not been so inept or inconsiderate, would never have happened.
Maybe he's learnt a lesson
I'm in the more of the HGV at fault camp. The car should have been sure a good gap was available or a flash or wave was given. He pushed in like a total cock but that said the HGV could have made a gap and just given him the coffee beans. Interesting to see how the insurance view this.
BFG TERRANO said:
I'm in the more of the HGV at fault camp. The car should have been sure a good gap was available or a flash or wave was given. He pushed in like a total cock but that said the HGV could have made a gap and just given him the coffee beans. Interesting to see how the insurance view this.
I posted the likely insurance view a few pages ago and got shot down in flames...Every day all over the country you see people accidentally get into the wrong lane at roundabouts, traffic lights or slip roads. They realise they're in the wrong place and sheepishly put on their indicator so as to move into where they should be. What do you acknowledge it's happened and let them in because you know that one day you too could make a similar mistake?
Or do you drive into them and say 'ha ha your fault'?
Oh dear this is going to take a few months to sort out
It comes under driving with due care and attention. You dont try to hold your speed and directions regardless of whats going on around you. You modify it based on what's happening to avoid this or any type of collision.
Due care for other road users.
Otherwise we'd get even more pedestrians, cyclists, your mum, mown down.
Does anyone really need telling this?
Or do you drive into them and say 'ha ha your fault'?
Oh dear this is going to take a few months to sort out
It comes under driving with due care and attention. You dont try to hold your speed and directions regardless of whats going on around you. You modify it based on what's happening to avoid this or any type of collision.
Due care for other road users.
Otherwise we'd get even more pedestrians, cyclists, your mum, mown down.
Does anyone really need telling this?
vonhosen said:
1. It is his responsibility to avoid collisions where he can, rather have one in order to enforce what he sees as his right.
2. If he wants the other party dealt with he should provide evidence to the prosecuting authorities rather than deal out his own form of justice.
3. When both parties have a collision by attempting to force their will when it's completely avoidable, then they both carry a portion of the blame for that collision.
1. Just for the record, I feel the need to say, as I learnt through my experience of driving hgvs (mainly in a local, short distance environment), avoiding accidents is what you do all day long, every day, in a way that you very rarely have to do when driving a car. All day long people are either trying to have an accident with you, or are unaware of how close they came to having an accident. I feel that possibly each and every one of us has an hgv driver somewhere to thank, for avoiding an accident when we were making a mistake that we were unaware of.2. If he wants the other party dealt with he should provide evidence to the prosecuting authorities rather than deal out his own form of justice.
3. When both parties have a collision by attempting to force their will when it's completely avoidable, then they both carry a portion of the blame for that collision.
2. Sorry, that's a cop out. Imo the bib only take action when they have an interest, and that by no means is confined to traffic matters.
3. You're right, but does it really apply here? Is an accident completely avoidable at this point? I realise both parties could have behaved better previously, but at this moment in time, what is going to happen?
I'd also just add, that again I do feel that this caravanner is a scourge of m'ways. Irrespective of the collision, even had it not happened, this guy would have slowed two motorways (M5 and M6) to a crawl, and possibly a halt.
There are tens of thousands of his like out there who are unbelievably selfish and don't give a kipper about the tail backs at peak times that they cause. There is another slip road onto the M5 south just 2 miles up the road, but instead this caravanner would sooner stop 2 motorways rather than inconvenience himself.
I do hope we see how this pans out. I presume the police did get involved, given that these two closed the entrance to the M5 off.
saaby93 said:
Every day all over the country you see people accidentally get into the wrong lane at roundabouts, traffic lights or slip roads. They realise they're in the wrong place and sheepishly put on their indicator so as to move into where they should be. What do you acknowledge it's happened and let them in because you know that one day you too could make a similar mistake?
Or do you drive into them and say 'ha ha your fault'?
Oh dear this is going to take a few months to sort out
It comes under driving with due care and attention. You dont try to hold your speed and directions regardless of whats going on around you. You modify it based on what's happening to avoid this or any type of collision.
Due care for other road users.
Otherwise we'd get even more pedestrians, cyclists, your mum, mown down.
Does anyone really need telling this?
Agree with this massively. As previously stated the lorry driver is a cock sprocket of the highest order, he should have slowed down. Or do you drive into them and say 'ha ha your fault'?
Oh dear this is going to take a few months to sort out
It comes under driving with due care and attention. You dont try to hold your speed and directions regardless of whats going on around you. You modify it based on what's happening to avoid this or any type of collision.
Due care for other road users.
Otherwise we'd get even more pedestrians, cyclists, your mum, mown down.
Does anyone really need telling this?
However DWDCA is a criminal conviction and insurance terms which is civil liability he wont get apportioned any blame.
nickofh said:
Caravan Driver - Idiot
Lorry Driver - Idiot
This could have so easily been avoided. Its 50/50 for me as the lorry driver could have easily avoided that collision , but he chose to keep going.
I have it as caravan driver normal guy making a mistakeLorry Driver - Idiot
This could have so easily been avoided. Its 50/50 for me as the lorry driver could have easily avoided that collision , but he chose to keep going.
Truck driver normal guy creating a collision where one didn't need to happen
It doesnt look like he made a mistake it looks deliberate
So 100% truck drivers fault
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