HGV vs caravan smash on the M6

[Issi]

'and at a junction he doesn't know'. For God's sake, you don't have to be familiar with a piece of road to be able to rear signs.

If I know I need to get off at Tamworth, for example, and I see feck off big blue sign with an arrow and the word Tamworth on it, I don't drive all the way to the end of the slip road going 'Is this the one I need?'

I would imagine the CRV driver has been using Britains roads for 40 odd years, does he only ever travel on roads that he knows?

[vonhosen]

valiant said:

Can't see the video anymore for some reason but if I remember it looks like slow moving traffic on the slip.

Everyone is queuing nicely and traffic is slowly moving. It appears the Mr caravan can't be bothered to queue with everyone else and tries to bully a lorry of all things at the last moment into letting him in.

Lorry driver is having none of this and Mr caravan, instead of carrying on to the next junction or trying to get in behind the lorry, gambles on the lorry driver relenting. He doesn't.

CRV driver fault. He put himself in a position where he caused an accident.

Queue of traffic nicely moving down the road. No sociable gap between the vehicles. Somebody can't be bothered to queue like everybody else & goes for an overtake trying to force his way in.

Do you
a) Speed up to close the gap & let there be a collision?
b) Make sure there isn't a collision?

That's essentially what this is, just a low speed one.

If you make sure there isn't a collision it's still poor driving & a likely offence by the other driver.
If you make sure there is a collision it's poor driving & a likely offence on both your parts.

[ukaskew]

Both clearly numpties, but I think we've got to this because as roads get more and more congested, more people very deliberately force their way into queues (I'm not talking about proper merging here), the lorry driver is doing what I'm sure a lot of people would like to occasionally, before the realisation that it's utterly idiotic anyway.

My commute takes me to a busy roundabout where left lane is always rammed full of people going left, a huge number of drivers will then take the right lane and 'double round' the roundabout, hardly noticeable if one or two do it, but so many do that it brings both lanes to a standstill and completely clogs the roundabout for all other users.

Selfish behaviour to save a few seconds, seems to be the way things are.

[vikingaero]

ukaskew said:

My commute takes me to a busy roundabout where left lane is always rammed full of people going left, a huge number of drivers will then take the right lane and 'double round' the roundabout, hardly noticeable if one or two do it, but so many do that it brings both lanes to a standstill and completely clogs the roundabout for all other users.

Selfish behaviour to save a few seconds, seems to be the way things are.

I have a similar commute. Those that do double round are either, the open mouth types, chavscum (which transcends all social classes), powerfully built company directors with goatees, company car drivers, premium BMW/Audi/Mercedes drivers, orange women, or a combination of all of these.

[RobM77]

Issi said:

'and at a junction he doesn't know'. For God's sake, you don't have to be familiar with a piece of road to be able to rear signs.

If I know I need to get off at Tamworth, for example, and I see feck off big blue sign with an arrow and the word Tamworth on it, I don't drive all the way to the end of the slip road going 'Is this the one I need?'

I would imagine the CRV driver has been using Britains roads for 40 odd years, does he only ever travel on roads that he knows?

Put yourself in his shoes. He may not have known he had to come off there to get where he was going. He might be driving from one end of the country to the other, and in typical UK road sign style, you don't get given 'M6 North' or something simple like that, it just gives a local town you've never heard of. It was late, but not last second stuff, and he was indicating clearly and well in advance. i'm not saying he's in the right, because he moved into a non existent gap, but for the lorry driver to assume the caravan tower is trying to cut in and block him is totally stupid, short sighted and aggressive - it's people like the caravan guy who make the roads dodgy, but it's people like the lorry driver who complete the picture and make the roads downright dangerous - it takes two to tango.

[valiant]

RobM77 said:

How do you know the caravan driver wa deliberately trying to jump the queue? He may have been, but it's just as likely he's on holiday (pretty obvious that actually!) and at a junction he doesn't know and realised at the last minute he needed to come off. He wasn't crossing any solid white lines or anything and was indicating. He could have been trying for ages. Two idiots there I'm afraid, not one. Caravan guy does something dangerous, lorry driver sees it happening and does nothing whatsoever to avoid it, and what's more, can't see the error of his ways and swears at the other guy - what a rude prick.

You're quite right that we don't know what's going through either driver's head but looking at the video again (thanks to KL for posting a link) the broken white line clearly indicates a junction ahead and would have been signposted before the dashed white line appears to alert drivers getting off that junction to get in lane as everyone in that slow moving queue had managed to do without any bother.

Unless Mr Caravan is on a magical mystery tour of the UK he probably knows where he's going and has planned accordingly. You don't just think "Oh, junction 10 looks nice - get off quick!" We don't know how far this slow moving traffic goes back and his manoeuvre smacks of impatience. If was genuine then he should have carried on when he saw the lorry wasn't going to let him in.

I see this everyday on the motorway (although a caravan is a first!) and people who queue patiently hate it when people push in at the very last moment but that's not to say it's illegal to do - just bloody inconsiderate and bound to piss people off. Yes Mr Lorrydriver could have let him in but Mr Caravan was probably the proverbial straw. Like with anything- it takes two to tango...

[stuartmmcfc]

Pushing into exit queue at the last moment is normally the m.o. of vans or reps etc. who are racing against the clock.
Far more likely IMO is that the caravan driver was just an unobservant fkwit who panicked when he realised the slow moving queue was for his exit.

[Martin4x4]

The HGV was in the correct lane and had the right of way. The Caravan driver was trying to queue jump and push in and came a cropper anybody that thinks he was in the right is also moron that needs to read the highway code.

[vonhosen]

Martin4x4 said:

The HGV was in the correct lane and had the right of way. The Caravan driver was trying to queue jump and push in and came a cropper anybody that thinks he was in the right is also moron that needs to read the highway code.

Having right of way doesn't absolve you of your responsibility to avoid collisions that you have the power to avoid.
If it's obvious when I'm approaching a green traffic light that somebody else approaching a red one isn't going to stop, the expectation is that I do what is within my power to avoid a collision, not have a well you've got to stop at the red light mentality (even though the evidence suggests you aren't going to), go on the throttle, not alter course & drive into a collision anyway.

Edited by vonhosen on Tuesday 21st April 21:16

[Mave]

Martin4x4 said:

The HGV was in the correct lane and had the right of way. The Caravan driver was trying to queue jump and push in and came a cropper anybody that thinks he was in the right is also moron that needs to read the highway code.

Nobody has said the Honda driver was in the right. But if you don't think the HGV driver was also in the wrong, then it's you that needs to read the highway code.

[Kawasicki]

vonhosen said:

Having right of way doesn't absolve you of your responsibility to avoid collisions that you have the power to avoid.

Quite a few road users don't see it that way.

[Nickyboy]

If we ignore the jostling for space on the slip road where the truck had the right of way, the driver could have backed off but as the shed tower has barely got his car past the front of the truck let alone the caravan he would have had to pretty much come to a full stop to let him in. It's the bit where the tries to get between the truck and barrier with probably less than half the vehicles width to get the whole rig through i can't understand. That bit was sheer lunacy

[surveyor]

Nickyboy said:

If we ignore the jostling for space on the slip road where the truck had the right of way, the driver could have backed off but as the shed tower has barely got his car past the front of the truck let alone the caravan he would have had to pretty much come to a full stop to let him in. It's the bit where the tries to get between the truck and barrier with probably less than half the vehicles width to get the whole rig through i can't understand. That bit was sheer lunacy

Mr I'm going to crash could have held off the power much earlier instead of trying to close the gap.

[Martin4x4]

Mave said:

Nobody has said the Honda driver was in the right. But if you don't think the HGV driver was also in the wrong, then it's you that needs to read the highway code.

The HGV driver was at worst inconsiderate but legally had the right of way.

[vonhosen]

Martin4x4 said:

Mave said:

Nobody has said the Honda driver was in the right. But if you don't think the HGV driver was also in the wrong, then it's you that needs to read the highway code.

The HGV driver was at worst inconsiderate but legally had the right of way.

Having right of way doesn't mean you can't be guilty of a Sec 3 offence (inconsiderate & careless are Sec 3).
In collisions it isn't only one party can be guilty of an offence. Each driver is judged on their actions, or lack of, that contributed to the collision.
If you can do something to avoid it you should do so, right of way or not.

[Vipers]

Martin4x4 said:

Mave said:

Nobody has said the Honda driver was in the right. But if you don't think the HGV driver was also in the wrong, then it's you that needs to read the highway code.

The HGV driver was at worst inconsiderate but legally had the right of way.

As Von said "Having right of way doesn't absolve you of your responsibility to avoid collisions that you have the power to avoid."

I bet if the trucker had been in his own car he may have decided to let the guy in. It's no different in my view, to saying if the pedestrian lights are green, you have the right of way and can mow them down.

Maybe the trucker is out of work now. Can see his employer taking a dim view to his actions..

[Mave]

Martin4x4 said:

The HGV driver was at worst inconsiderate but legally had the right of way.

He deliberately allowed a crash to happen. That is far worse than inconsiderate and he did not legally have right of way. Section 1 of the Highway code states "the rules in the highway code do not give you right of way in any circumstance". It also states "always give way if it can help to avoid an incident".

[getawayturtle]

Spangles said:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ETm9rqOEvA

Raffles said:

Here:

https://www.facebook.com/156207517860717/videos/50...

KTF said:

And here: https://www.facebook.com/pages/Idiot-UK-Drivers-Ex...

Other dashcam examples on that page as well.

Thanks chaps. I will put these on the original post.

[NoNeed]

I pass this junction everyday and can safely say that if you get that far in the wrong lane you shouldn't be driving at all. The M5 is split with a dotted line for about 1 mile and lanes are signposted for several miles from before the previous junction.


My conclusion is caravan man should not be on the road at all ever again. Lorry man needs anger management.I hope the insurance companies concerned see the video and refuse to pay out to either of them as it was clearly no accident.

[Willy Nilly]

Mave said:

Martin4x4 said:

The HGV was in the correct lane and had the right of way. The Caravan driver was trying to queue jump and push in and came a cropper anybody that thinks he was in the right is also moron that needs to read the highway code.

Nobody has said the Honda driver was in the right. But if you don't think the HGV driver was also in the wrong, then it's you that needs to read the highway code.

The HGV didn't have to give way to the CRV, he had priority over the CRV. The CRV pushed in and lost, it will be a seminal moment in the driving career of the CRV driver. See how he never again pushes into queues of traffic, particularly when the traffic in the queue is quite a bit bigger than he is.