HGV vs caravan smash on the M6

[saaby93]

AA999 said:

Blue Oval84 said:

So, it was fairly clear to me that the HGV driver HAD seen him, but just chose not to let him in, and Mr CRV was obviously going to get in regardless.

Where does liability lie here then? He was joining the lane, but the HGV driver clearly carried on when the car was coming over anyway.

I would view it as the 'liability'/onus falls with the driver conducting any maneuver to (a) make sure there is space to move in to and (b) that it can be done safely.
So fault should be with CRV driver.

There is too much of this "move or I'll crash in to you" scenarios on the roads these days, sure the driver being forced out of the way could yield, but if this happens all the time then the standard of driving on the roads would fall dramatically.
In my view its good to see (in this low speed example) the HGV driver not being bullied in to yield. Unfortunately it lands him in to a situation where he has to deal with his insurance.

He asked about liability rather than fault
Too many times now we've lost common courtesy on the road
Anyone can see the CRV and caravan wants to come off at the exit he's doing everything he can to let everyone know that.
We're not talking about a collision where hes just swung left and taken out anything in range without warning

Up ahead the van's done the same manoeuvre without issue and is on his way. Every day it happens all over the place without issue. The move in itself doesn't result in a collision. Something else turns it into a collision.

[Krupp Stahl]

I bet the caravanner's wife was pleased. The SCANIA badge must've damned near touched her left cheek once the window popped.

[saaby93]

Krupp Stahl said:

I bet the caravanner's wife was pleased. The SCANIA badge must've damned near touched her left cheek once the window popped.

If you'd just driven into the side of someone and nearly killed their wife would you be feeling pleased about it?

Isnt this a forum where we enjoy driving, look after our P&J, avoid denting them, let alone damaging someone else?

Anyone want to post this up on the BRAKE forum and see what they think of what a supposed PHer just said?

Jeez

Edited by saaby93 on Friday 24th April 15:01

[Mandalore]

Hang on a minute - this is golden!!!

The next time I see a full single lane slip road, instead of pulling into it near to where it starts at the half mile mark (As signposted by the Huuuuge great signs), I will instead drive at speed down the outside until just before the start the chevrons themselves and nose aggressively into the nearest gap - whilst indicating and braking hard to match velocity.


I have never done anything like that before, as I always thought it was a bit selfish to other drivers - but if this thread has taught me nothing else, it has taught me that definitely isn't the case and that morally (and possibly legally) I would actually be in the right (90% of the time at least).



Cool beans!!

[xRIEx]

Mandalore said:

Hang on a minute - this is golden!!!

The next time I see a full single lane slip road, instead of pulling into it near to where it starts at the half mile mark (As signposted by the Huuuuge great signs), I will instead drive at speed down the outside until just before the start the chevrons themselves and nose aggressively into the nearest gap - whilst indicating and braking hard to match velocity.


I have never done anything like that before, as I always thought it was a bit selfish to other drivers - but if this thread has taught me nothing else, it has taught me that definitely isn't the case and that morally (and possibly legally) I would actually be in the right (90% of the time at least).



Cool beans!!

That's what this thread has taught you?

I think I'm starting to feel the despair your teachers used to feel.

[saaby93]

Isnt this what PH is about >>>

I was out in my P&J top down (no flat cap) taking the long M5 slip off the M6 when a car and caravan inch past.
The guy must have noticed the over gantry wasnt what he waas expecting as he flicks on his left indicator and positions as if he needs to take the slip too.
I drop back a bit, he slips across and we're off south down the M5
It was so uneventful I'm surprised I remember it.

I pass him a bit later on and he gives me a cheery wave

Is that about as exciting as it gets?

[kiseca]

Mandalore said:

Hang on a minute - this is golden!!!

The next time I see a full single lane slip road, instead of pulling into it near to where it starts at the half mile mark (As signposted by the Huuuuge great signs), I will instead drive at speed down the outside until just before the start the chevrons themselves and nose aggressively into the nearest gap - whilst indicating and braking hard to match velocity.


I have never done anything like that before, as I always thought it was a bit selfish to other drivers - but if this thread has taught me nothing else, it has taught me that definitely isn't the case and that morally (and possibly legally) I would actually be in the right (90% of the time at least).



Cool beans!!

How the fk did you read this whole thread and come to that conclusion?!?

[Mave]

LocoCoco said:

I know the accident was 100% my fault, the logic on here doesn't match that though.

That's because you're trying to make it black and white, rather than considering reasonable expectations. It is reasonable to expect a lorry driver not to react to a slowly developing situation by accelerating into it, especially when the safe option is obvious and easy to take. It is not reasonable to expect someone surprised by someone suddenly appearing out of control in their mirror to be able to do much more than hang on and hope. Seeing unusual things "unfold" can happen much quicker than you can effectively react to.

[Mandalore]

xRIEx said:

Mandalore said:

Hang on a minute - this is golden!!!

The next time I see a full single lane slip road, instead of pulling into it near to where it starts at the half mile mark (As signposted by the Huuuuge great signs), I will instead drive at speed down the outside until just before the start the chevrons themselves and nose aggressively into the nearest gap - whilst indicating and braking hard to match velocity.


I have never done anything like that before, as I always thought it was a bit selfish to other drivers - but if this thread has taught me nothing else, it has taught me that definitely isn't the case and that morally (and possibly legally) I would actually be in the right (90% of the time at least).



Cool beans!!

That's what this thread has taught you?

I think I'm starting to feel the despair your teachers used to feel.

Its sarcasm (obviously),

But its indicative of what some people on here (90% apparently) feel is acceptable behaviour. Even through it is clearly irresponsible.


What I find most astonishing (and scary), is that some the people who support that irresponsible view.

[saaby93]

Mandalore said:

But its indicative of what some people on here (90% apparently) feel is acceptable behaviour.

I kept the poll deliberately straight so that if someone tried to say something like that I could say no it didnt
Over 90% of those who responded to the caravan in the wanting to merge across position
would allow it without a crash (albeit some begrudgingly).
I can write the longer version if you like.

[jmorgan]

I think there is an underlying issue here. That is the general standard of driving today is quite bad. Long day driving today and much barging in all over the place. Be it from the slip road or onto the slip road, sudden manoeuvres to pass a lorry when people realise there is a slower vehicle etc. Many driver today do not bother past their immediate bubble and perhaps this action is the result.

[Krupp Stahl]

saaby93 said:

If you'd just driven into the side of someone and nearly killed their wife would you be feeling pleased about it?

Isnt this a forum where we enjoy driving, look after our P&J, avoid denting them, let alone damaging someone else?

Anyone want to post this up on the BRAKE forum and see what they think of what a supposed PHer just said?

Jeez

Edited by saaby93 on Friday 24th April 15:01

Are you serious?

I'm not even going to bother explaining it to you - suffice to say, you have firmly grasped the wrong end of the stick.

Good luck.

[Mandalore]

saaby93 said:

kept the poll deliberately straight so that if someone tried to say something like that I could say no it didnt
Over 90% of those who responded to the caravan in the wanting to merge across position
would allow it without a crash (albeit some begrudgingly).
I can write the longer version if you like.

And 90% of us all answered the way we did, based on the limited options you gave us in terms of the actions we would take.
And that is fine, that is what 90% of us would do in that given situation, as the only other option you gave was to deliberately crash into the other (I mean really - who in their right mind would do that?)


Both drivers were knobs, but you only fixated on one.



Poll: M5/M6 merge/collision driving poll
Total Members Polled: 565


Close the gap, ultimately crash if necessary : 31
Close the gap but ultimately avoid a crash: 148
Let the guy in but be cross about it: 169
Let the guy in but no worries it happens: 213
Left blank: 11
I dont do polls: 19

Edited by Mandalore on Friday 24th April 16:27

[saaby93]

Krupp Stahl said:

Are you serious?
I'm not even going to bother explaining it to you - suffice to say, you have firmly grasped the wrong end of the stick.

I did wonder if it was irony, but it did tie in with the way some posters seemed to be going which may have been the point you were trying to make

[Mave]

Mandalore said:

Its sarcasm (obviously),

But its indicative of what some people on here (90% apparently) feel is acceptable behaviour. Even through it is clearly irresponsible.

What I find most astonishing (and scary), is that some the people who support that irresponsible view.

No. 90% of people didn't say it was ok to barge in. 90% of people said it wasn't ok to drive into someone in response to them barging in.

[saaby93]

Mandalore said:

saaby93 said:

kept the poll deliberately straight so that if someone tried to say something like that I could say no it didnt
Over 90% of those who responded to the caravan in the wanting to merge across position
would allow it without a crash (albeit some begrudgingly).
I can write the longer version if you like.

And 90% of us all answered the way we did, based on the limited options you gave us in terms of the actions we would take.
And that is fine, that is what 90% of us would do in that given situation,

I tried to give a reasonable range of options.
It's a bit late now but given the situation you're in the position of the truck driver and the caravan was trying to merge what other option would be open to you?

[Krupp Stahl]

saaby93 said:

did wonder if it was irony, but it did tie in with the way some posters seemed to be going which may have been the point you were trying to make

Fair one.

For the record, watching it made me very sad. Driving often seems to bring out strange psychological sides in people - mainly due to misinterpretation of others' actions I suspect. Drivers are largely hidden from immediate view and therefore unable to readily display and receive non-verbal body language which would otherwise result in agreeable responses from others in given situations.

Once the initial red mist had warn off, I'll bet both felt utterly ashamed - quite rightly.

[saaby93]

Krupp Stahl said:

For the record, watching it made me very sad. Driving often seems to bring out strange psychological sides in people - mainly due to misinterpretation of others' actions I suspect. Drivers are largely hidden from immediate view and therefore unable to readily display and receive non-verbal body language which would otherwise result in agreeable responses from others in given situations.

Thanks for dragging out the point

Another day it could have been this

saaby93 said:

Isnt this what PH is about >>>

I was out in my P&J top down (no flat cap) taking the long M5 slip off the M6 when a car and caravan inch past.
The guy must have noticed the over gantry wasnt what he waas expecting as he flicks on his left indicator and positions as if he needs to take the slip too.
I drop back a bit, he slips across and we're off south down the M5
It was so uneventful I'm surprised I remember it.

I pass him a bit later on and he gives me a cheery wave

Is that about as exciting as it gets?

[Mandalore]

Mave said:

Mandalore said:

Its sarcasm (obviously),

But its indicative of what some people on here (90% apparently) feel is acceptable behaviour. Even through it is clearly irresponsible.

What I find most astonishing (and scary), is that some the people who support that irresponsible view.

No. 90% of people didn't say it was ok to barge in. 90% of people said it wasn't ok to drive into someone in response to them barging in.

That IS part of the point I attempting to make.

90% (actually more like 95%) said we would not crash if somebody barged in.

Yet, the morality of whether somebody should barge in in the first place, has taken a complete back seat in the statistical analysis as that moral question is not reflected adequately in the poll.

Just because, 95% have answered x, does not validate people barging in, without thought of the consequence,

edited.
Anyway,
I see Saarby has also answered that point as well.

saaby93 said:

I tried to give a reasonable range of options.
It's a bit late now but given the situation you're in the position of the truck driver and the caravan was trying to merge what other option would be open to you?

Edited by Mandalore on Friday 24th April 17:21

[Mr GrimNasty]

The Caravan Driver has clearly spent too much time reading Piston Heads merge in turn threads.