M5/M6 merge/collision driving poll

[Halb]

vonhosen said:

It all still adds up to both not driving to the required standard.

For me, the lorry driver fails the required standard of courtesy, but the CRV fails any reasonable standard of everything else.

[NoNeed]

I don't believe the lorry driver could reasonably have expected the caravan driver to do that suicidal move, I have re-watched this a few times now and at no point did I think the caravan would deliberately cross the hatched area to cut across the path of the lorry.

[vonhosen]

Halb said:

vonhosen said:

It all still adds up to both not driving to the required standard.

For me, the lorry driver fails the required standard of courtesy, but the CRV fails any reasonable standard of everything else.

He fails more than courtesy. He failed to act to reduce the very real risks of an easily foreseeable collision, he just kept going & going towards it
There is an expectation that you should try to avoid them & the other party committing an offence doesn't remove that expectation from you.

[Halb]

NoNeed said:

I don't believe the lorry driver could reasonably have expected the caravan driver to do that suicidal move, I have re-watched this a few times now and at no point did I think the caravan would deliberately cross the hatched area to cut across the path of the lorry.

Quite. One runs the small risk of it, if the other driver is a total looney, but one doesn't run into them too much. I wouldn't have expected the crv driver to be Mad Max incarnate.

vonhosen said:

He fails more than courtesy. He failed to act to reduce the very real risks of an easily foreseeable collision, he just kept going & going towards it
There is an expectation that you should try to avoid them & the other party committing an offence doesn't remove that expectation from you.

I disagree, c'est la vie.

[vonhosen]

NoNeed said:

I don't believe the lorry driver could reasonably have expected the caravan driver to do that suicidal move, I have re-watched this a few times now and at no point did I think the caravan would deliberately cross the hatched area to cut across the path of the lorry.

There was plenty to lead the lorry driver to expect that the caravaner would not act reasonably. The caravaner was not doing what he should have been doing for a considerable time & the only sensible conclusion on that evidence would be to expect that to continue. As such the lorry driver needed to show sufficient care & caution in order to do what was necessary to cover for that continuation & avoid a coming together.

The whole thing was so avoidable & unnecessary.

Letting it go that far benefited no-one & both had the power to diffuse the situation, but instead chose to escalate it towards the conclusion.

[vonhosen]

Halb said:

NoNeed said:

I don't believe the lorry driver could reasonably have expected the caravan driver to do that suicidal move, I have re-watched this a few times now and at no point did I think the caravan would deliberately cross the hatched area to cut across the path of the lorry.

Quite. One runs the small risk of it, if the other driver is a total looney, but one doesn't run into them too much. I wouldn't have expected the crv driver to be Mad Max incarnate.

vonhosen said:

He fails more than courtesy. He failed to act to reduce the very real risks of an easily foreseeable collision, he just kept going & going towards it
There is an expectation that you should try to avoid them & the other party committing an offence doesn't remove that expectation from you.

I disagree, c'est la vie.

You disagree with what, there is an expectation that we avoid collisions?

Highway code said:

Always give way if it can help to avoid an incident.

[saaby93]

NoNeed said:

I don't believe the lorry driver could reasonably have expected the caravan driver to do that suicidal move, I have re-watched this a few times now and at no point did I think the caravan would deliberately cross the hatched area to cut across the path of the lorry.

I know the camera is a bit narrow angle (in practice the whole of the car and caravan is visible from the truck cab) but I'm wondering what went through your mind as a couple of options of what might happen next

[NoNeed]

saaby93 said:

NoNeed said:

I don't believe the lorry driver could reasonably have expected the caravan driver to do that suicidal move, I have re-watched this a few times now and at no point did I think the caravan would deliberately cross the hatched area to cut across the path of the lorry.

I know the camera is a bit narrow angle (in practice the whole of the car and caravan is visible from the truck cab) but I'm wondering what went through your mind as a couple of options of what might happen next

That was before the hatched area, I was onabout once they had reached the hatched area the lorry driver had already closed the gap by then

[Halb]

vonhosen said:

You disagree with what, there is an expectation that we avoid collisions?

That the lorry driver failed more than courtesy.

[vonhosen]

Halb said:

vonhosen said:

You disagree with what, there is an expectation that we avoid collisions?

That the lorry driver failed more than courtesy.

He failed to do the basics of what I've just quoted from the highway code, which goes beyond just courtesy. After all he didn't give way to avoid a collision that was easily foreseeable.

[Sheepshanks]

NoNeed said:

That was before the hatched area, I was onabout once they had reached the hatched area the lorry driver had already closed the gap by then

Which he shouldn't have done. Dangerous driving by the lorry driver.

If you drive a lot on the motorways they become a very familiar, almost comfortable, environment. But you've got to be aware of people who don't know what they're doing, and someone towing a caravan would be a massive warning sign to me.

[saaby93]

NoNeed said:

That was before the hatched area, I was onabout once they had reached the hatched area the lorry driver had already closed the gap by then

Hold the thought about the hatched area for now

Looking at the picture again, you're driving with due care and attentive, give a couple of thoughts about what could happen next

[NoNeed]

saaby93 said:

NoNeed said:

That was before the hatched area, I was onabout once they had reached the hatched area the lorry driver had already closed the gap by then

Hold the thought about the hatched area for now

Looking at the picture again, you're driving with due care and attentive, give a couple of thoughts about what could happen next

Could you reasonably expect a car to deliberately cross the hatched area in a last minute dash for a gap that didn't exist? I don't think so.

[Halb]

vonhosen said:

He failed to do the basics of what I've just quoted from the highway code, which goes beyond just courtesy. After all he didn't give way to avoid a collision that was easily foreseeable.

I disagree. All he was guilty of was not giving a gap. No-one could foresee the mental CRV man crashing into the lorry like Mad Max. That is where we disagree.

[saaby93]

NoNeed said:

Could you reasonably expect a car to deliberately cross the hatched area in a last minute dash for a gap that didn't exist? I don't think so.

We'll take that in a minute, just have a think about the photo

[NoNeed]

Sheepshanks said:

NoNeed said:

That was before the hatched area, I was onabout once they had reached the hatched area the lorry driver had already closed the gap by then

Which he shouldn't have done. Dangerous driving by the lorry driver.

If you drive a lot on the motorways they become a very familiar, almost comfortable, environment. But you've got to be aware of people who don't know what they're doing, and someone towing a caravan would be a massive warning sign to me.

Closing the gap was a bad move I have aid that before but at the point the collision occurred I don't think the lorry driver could have reasonably expected the car to do that.

People do know to a degree what they are doing it's why we have a driving standards agency.

[Halb]

NoNeed said:

Could you reasonably expect a car to deliberately cross the hatched area in a last minute dash for a gap that didn't exist? I don't think so.

Especially one of the size/weight of the car/caravan combo. I've seen sleek fast things chance it when there have been no cars to the left, not tortoises barging into traffic.

[vonhosen]

NoNeed said:

Sheepshanks said:

NoNeed said:

That was before the hatched area, I was onabout once they had reached the hatched area the lorry driver had already closed the gap by then

Which he shouldn't have done. Dangerous driving by the lorry driver.

If you drive a lot on the motorways they become a very familiar, almost comfortable, environment. But you've got to be aware of people who don't know what they're doing, and someone towing a caravan would be a massive warning sign to me.

Closing the gap was a bad move I have aid that before but at the point the collision occurred I don't think the lorry driver could have reasonably expected the car to do that.

People do know to a degree what they are doing it's why we have a driving standards agency.

Of course he could it was moving into the off slip before the line became solid, it was only moving one way showing no signs of going the other. He then accelerated up to it, when the caravaner was now straddling the solid line.

They'd have both failed a DVSA test doing what they were doing.

[NoNeed]

saaby93 said:

NoNeed said:

Could you reasonably expect a car to deliberately cross the hatched area in a last minute dash for a gap that didn't exist? I don't think so.

We'll take that in a minute, just have a think about the photo

I have, the lorry driver closed the gap in that photo, then caravan man got angry and decided he wasn't having that so rather than fall back in behind he kept his position, then in a last minute fit of anger he decided to crash.



The sound in the video shows that when the caravan first decide to barge the truck out of the e=wayy it sounds like he scraped the lorry, maybe he though we need a proper crash now for insurance purposes as he realised he fked up.


Hadn't listened with volume before, the picture doesn't show that.

Edited by NoNeed on Friday 24th April 22:21

[vonhosen]

NoNeed said:

saaby93 said:

NoNeed said:

That was before the hatched area, I was onabout once they had reached the hatched area the lorry driver had already closed the gap by then

Hold the thought about the hatched area for now

Looking at the picture again, you're driving with due care and attentive, give a couple of thoughts about what could happen next

Could you reasonably expect a car to deliberately cross the hatched area in a last minute dash for a gap that didn't exist? I don't think so.

It wasn't a dash, it was a gradual move happening in clear view of the lorry driver who chose to escalate rather than diffuse.
The caravaner shouldn't have been doing what he was doing, but the lorry driver shouldn't have reacted the way he did.