More merging drama
Discussion
RicksAlfas said:
OpulentBob said:
The highway code sets out the road arrangements that are found in this country, and all drivers learn according to it. It’s really not difficult.
But... as mentioned earlier, the merge in turn concept is relatively new, so not many drivers have learnt it, or are aware of it.Maybe a few more signs would start getting the message across. "Please use both lanes". "100 yards Merge in turn ". Etc.
People HAVE been successfully adopting it for years as the common sense/fair approach when confronted with an unexpected obstacle in the roadway.
For example: Theme parks, Racing Circuits, Horse Races, County Shows, or other large parking events will often merge two slow queuing lanes successfully and without any drama in a zipper move to one lane at a pinch point.
The difference is that people are not told meters in advance and as consequence stay in both lanes until the last moment - and both lanes are therefore shorter and keep moving.
Edited by Hol on Thursday 23 April 12:06
saaby93 said:
Right here's how to make the supermarket analogy work 
You've got ONE check out
There's a queue leading up to it and everyone's patiently waiting their turn ( maybe not patiently)
Every now and again someone comes up the inside and joins the queue at the front.
People look a bit miffed but no-ones bothered to argue about it. The queue gets longer.
As it gets longer some people begin pushing in the middle of the queue
Eventually there are enough people pushing in that the back of the queue doesnt move
How to shorten the queue?
Ask people to queue in pairs one alongside the other
They're not over happy doing this, it makes the queue half the length
but the throughput through the till is still the same
and everyone is moving
ok?
What to do in the case here with a full lane 2 and empty lane 1?
Anyone joining can use use the empty lane 1 but not undertake anyone already in lane 2
The merc queues up behind the renault, all the PHErs i.e. half those joining line up behind the merc
The full lane 2 ahead now begins moving as fast as it can
and everyone passes through the roadworks in turn
Merge in turn only works properly if you have two queuing lanes
To get two queuing lanes, use both lanes but no over/undertaking.
So your logic is that if there is a mile long queue in Lane 2 then a driver in lane 1 has to wait alongside the last car in Lane 2 even though there is a mile of clear road in front of him?You've got ONE check out
There's a queue leading up to it and everyone's patiently waiting their turn ( maybe not patiently)
Every now and again someone comes up the inside and joins the queue at the front.
People look a bit miffed but no-ones bothered to argue about it. The queue gets longer.
As it gets longer some people begin pushing in the middle of the queue
Eventually there are enough people pushing in that the back of the queue doesnt move
How to shorten the queue?
Ask people to queue in pairs one alongside the other
They're not over happy doing this, it makes the queue half the length
but the throughput through the till is still the same
and everyone is moving
ok?
What to do in the case here with a full lane 2 and empty lane 1?
Anyone joining can use use the empty lane 1 but not undertake anyone already in lane 2
The merc queues up behind the renault, all the PHErs i.e. half those joining line up behind the merc
The full lane 2 ahead now begins moving as fast as it can
and everyone passes through the roadworks in turn
Merge in turn only works properly if you have two queuing lanes
To get two queuing lanes, use both lanes but no over/undertaking.
Lunacy.
grayze said:
So your logic is that if there is a mile long queue in Lane 2 then a driver in lane 1 has to wait alongside the last car in Lane 2 even though there is a mile of clear road in front of him?
yep I think someone has to, to make it all sort itself out so lane two gets moving again, two lanes of traffic form and the merge in turn works.If there's a mile it definitely hasnt worked!
Otherwise youre back in the supermarket where everyone's queued up and you think hmm I can go up the inside of the queue here and get to the till in front of all the others.
ok it's good for you but not so good for everyone else
As agreed above merge in turn only works properly if you have two lanes of traffic and no over/undertaking
Edited by saaby93 on Thursday 23 April 14:53
Hol said:
Merge in turn is only new to the Highway Code. (2006/2007??)
People HAVE been successfully adopting it for years as the common sense/fair approach when confronted with an unexpected obstacle in the roadway.
For example: Theme parks, Racing Circuits, Horse Races, County Shows, or other large parking events will often merge two slow queuing lanes successfully and without any drama in a zipper move to one lane at a pinch point.
The difference is that people are not told meters in advance and as consequence stay in both lanes until the last moment - and both lanes are therefore shorter and keep moving.
I would say they (generally) merge in turn successfully at fixed/known pinch points in the road as wellPeople HAVE been successfully adopting it for years as the common sense/fair approach when confronted with an unexpected obstacle in the roadway.
For example: Theme parks, Racing Circuits, Horse Races, County Shows, or other large parking events will often merge two slow queuing lanes successfully and without any drama in a zipper move to one lane at a pinch point.
The difference is that people are not told meters in advance and as consequence stay in both lanes until the last moment - and both lanes are therefore shorter and keep moving.
Several examples on the North Circular around Ealing where 2 lanes come down to 1, or leading up to Elephant and Castle where 3 lanes merge to 2 and then 1.
Everyone knows from driving every day that the merge is there and that they will get through it fastest if they alternate lanes and in general they do, only occasionally is there a cock who tailgates through to get one whole car ahead.
Either London drivers are polite after all, or more likely people just use both lanes properly at the merge points that are there every day, it's the special roadwork / temporary ones that throw people, so I think the suggestion of better signage is the answer, that spells out in massive flashing letters to use both lanes and highlighting the merge point at the front of the cones.
saaby93 said:
grayze said:
So your logic is that if there is a mile long queue in Lane 2 then a driver in lane 1 has to wait alongside the last car in Lane 2 even though there is a mile of clear road in front of him?
yep I think someone has to, to make it all sort itself out so lane two gets moving again, two lanes of traffic form and the merge in turn works.If there's a mile it definitely hasnt worked!
Otherwise youre back in the supermarket where everyone's queued up and you think hmm I can go up the inside of the queue here and get to the till in front of all the others.
ok it's good for you but not so good for everyone else
As agreed above merge in turn only works properly if you have two lanes of traffic and no over/undertaking
Edited by saaby93 on Thursday 23 April 14:53
saaby93 said:
ep I think someone has to, to make it all sort itself out so lane two gets moving again, two lanes of traffic form and the merge in turn works.
If there's a mile it definitely hasnt worked!
Otherwise youre back in the supermarket where everyone's queued up and you think hmm I can go up the inside of the queue here and get to the till in front of all the others.
ok it's good for you but not so good for everyone else
As agreed above merge in turn only works properly if you have two lanes of traffic and no over/undertaking
But that's lunacy! Everyone else is perfectly free to use the open lane too. There is literally nothing stopping them from also pulling into the free lane except their own misconceptions. If they did so, the problem would immediately be resolved. Why are others obliged to hamper their own progress in order to make life easier for people who have chosen not to take the same opportunity when presented with it?If there's a mile it definitely hasnt worked!
Otherwise youre back in the supermarket where everyone's queued up and you think hmm I can go up the inside of the queue here and get to the till in front of all the others.
ok it's good for you but not so good for everyone else
As agreed above merge in turn only works properly if you have two lanes of traffic and no over/undertaking
Edited by saaby93 on Thursday 23 April 14:53
OwenK said:
But that's lunacy! Everyone else is perfectly free to use the open lane too. There is literally nothing stopping them from also pulling into the free lane except their own misconceptions. If they did so, the problem would immediately be resolved. Why are others obliged to hamper their own progress in order to make life easier for people who have chosen not to take the same opportunity when presented with it?
Are you talking about merge in turn, the shopping queue or life generally 
By going to the front youve made everyone in the queue one place slower than they would have been.
If you'd held station at the back of the queue it would take everyone up to that point the same time as if there were two lines side by side merging in turn at the front.
Shopping queue or traffic queue the limiting factor is the throughput at the till.
Anyway no matter.
Edited by saaby93 on Thursday 23 April 16:00
Krikkit said:
We need a law introducing about zip merging like the Germans do. Suddenly you'd find all the 2-1 merge lanes fully occupied!
Utterly stupid behaviour.
This. Utterly stupid behaviour.
We have a roundabout by us that has two lanes on the exit which merge a hundred or so meters after the exit.
It's amazing how many people make blocking moves like this despite there being signs on the exist explicitly instructing drivers to "use both lanes"
saaby93 said:
re you talking about merge in turn, the shopping queue or life generally
By going to the front youve made everyone in the queue one place slower than they would have been.
If you'd held station at the back of the queue it would take everyone up to that point the same time as if there were two lines side by side merging in turn at the front.
Shopping queue or traffic queue the limiting factor is the throughput at the till.
Anyway no matter we're either team players or not
They should have queued correctly then. Their error created the problem.By going to the front youve made everyone in the queue one place slower than they would have been.
If you'd held station at the back of the queue it would take everyone up to that point the same time as if there were two lines side by side merging in turn at the front.
Shopping queue or traffic queue the limiting factor is the throughput at the till.
Anyway no matter we're either team players or not
OwenK said:
What about tagging a little diagram onto the distance warning signs?
800 yards - show both lanes being fully utilised.
400 yards - cars spaced alternately between the lanes to create merge gaps.
200 yards - lanes merging together.
Alter distances as necessary.
Construction company could probably run a few of these off themselves on corrugated plastic, like estate agent signs...?
The funny thing is that a lot of people can do it just fine anywhere but on a motorway. There are plenty of pinch points around central London, and the merging works just fine.800 yards - show both lanes being fully utilised.
400 yards - cars spaced alternately between the lanes to create merge gaps.
200 yards - lanes merging together.
Alter distances as necessary.
Construction company could probably run a few of these off themselves on corrugated plastic, like estate agent signs...?
grayze said:
saaby93 said:
Right here's how to make the supermarket analogy work
You've got ONE check out
There's a queue leading up to it and everyone's patiently waiting their turn ( maybe not patiently)
Every now and again someone comes up the inside and joins the queue at the front.
People look a bit miffed but no-ones bothered to argue about it. The queue gets longer.
As it gets longer some people begin pushing in the middle of the queue
Eventually there are enough people pushing in that the back of the queue doesnt move
How to shorten the queue?
Ask people to queue in pairs one alongside the other
They're not over happy doing this, it makes the queue half the length
but the throughput through the till is still the same
and everyone is moving
ok?
What to do in the case here with a full lane 2 and empty lane 1?
Anyone joining can use use the empty lane 1 but not undertake anyone already in lane 2
The merc queues up behind the renault, all the PHErs i.e. half those joining line up behind the merc
The full lane 2 ahead now begins moving as fast as it can
and everyone passes through the roadworks in turn
Merge in turn only works properly if you have two queuing lanes
To get two queuing lanes, use both lanes but no over/undertaking.
So your logic is that if there is a mile long queue in Lane 2 then a driver in lane 1 has to wait alongside the last car in Lane 2 even though there is a mile of clear road in front of him?You've got ONE check out
There's a queue leading up to it and everyone's patiently waiting their turn ( maybe not patiently)
Every now and again someone comes up the inside and joins the queue at the front.
People look a bit miffed but no-ones bothered to argue about it. The queue gets longer.
As it gets longer some people begin pushing in the middle of the queue
Eventually there are enough people pushing in that the back of the queue doesnt move
How to shorten the queue?
Ask people to queue in pairs one alongside the other
They're not over happy doing this, it makes the queue half the length
but the throughput through the till is still the same
and everyone is moving
ok?
What to do in the case here with a full lane 2 and empty lane 1?
Anyone joining can use use the empty lane 1 but not undertake anyone already in lane 2
The merc queues up behind the renault, all the PHErs i.e. half those joining line up behind the merc
The full lane 2 ahead now begins moving as fast as it can
and everyone passes through the roadworks in turn
Merge in turn only works properly if you have two queuing lanes
To get two queuing lanes, use both lanes but no over/undertaking.
Lunacy.
You simply changed your example, into a scenario that would never exist.
If there WAS only one till open, then NOBODY ever attempts to queue in the adjacent lane, because the till at the end of that lane was closed.
Your analogy HAS to follow the reality that we see on roads to be valid. (two separate lanes, both valid).
If you take away the checkout and replace it with something you might see, like an airport boarding pass check, that is being fed by two clearly marked and seggregated lanes - that would be more accurate. The person checking the passes, would alternate between the lanes (left/right).
But, I guess, that doses not help your argument.
saaby93 said:
re you talking about merge in turn, the shopping queue or life generally
By going to the front youve made everyone in the queue one place slower than they would have been.
If you'd held station at the back of the queue it would take everyone up to that point the same time as if there were two lines side by side merging in turn at the front.
Shopping queue or traffic queue the limiting factor is the throughput at the till.
Anyway no matter.
You just don't get it do you, you are a liability on the roads.By going to the front youve made everyone in the queue one place slower than they would have been.
If you'd held station at the back of the queue it would take everyone up to that point the same time as if there were two lines side by side merging in turn at the front.
Shopping queue or traffic queue the limiting factor is the throughput at the till.
Anyway no matter.
Edited by saaby93 on Thursday 23 April 16:00
MODS can we please have a report option for being absolutely clueless.
ORD said:
The funny thing is that a lot of people can do it just fine anywhere but on a motorway. There are plenty of pinch points around central London, and the merging works just fine.
This (I made the same point earlier). In busy cities, it's familiar and ordinary, everybody gets it, and available lanes are never left unused. The comprehension failure (and consequent behaviour) is an out-of-town problem, which makes it more clear to me that it's a matter of education.And for the checkout analogy :
I know of a canteen where there is a single till - with shelves on either side for trays.
Customers form two queues and the operator processes one from the left, one from the right, one from the left, one from the right...
It's faster. While the person on the left is dealing with their change and collecting napkins etc., the operator has moved on to the one on the right.
I know of a canteen where there is a single till - with shelves on either side for trays.
Customers form two queues and the operator processes one from the left, one from the right, one from the left, one from the right...
It's faster. While the person on the left is dealing with their change and collecting napkins etc., the operator has moved on to the one on the right.
OpulentBob said:
"Idiots.” Nice.
Your post shows how little you understand traffic management. Whatever your day job is, stick to it. All you’ve got to do is follow the rules, there’s a good driver. The highway code sets out the road arrangements that are found in this country, and all drivers learn according to it. It’s really not difficult.
You cannot merge in the middle of the road without major pre-works (amendments to markings, road studs, signs, barriers etc). Use lanes that are already established is a much more beneficial and practical way to work. Central merging also substantially increases the length of road that requires restricting. I’ve explained it many times before on here.
That makes good sense, and exposes most of us as armchair experts. Proper expertise is invariably way more complex. I see why central merging may not be worthwhile, but is this subject generally perceived as a problem by road planners? I assume so, because of all the Merge in turn/ Use both lanes signage. Are there any other options to improve things? I've started to adopt the position of many others here, and "give in", simply to avoid yet another confrontation, which I realise means I'm adding to the problem of mega-queues and empty lanes. Your post shows how little you understand traffic management. Whatever your day job is, stick to it. All you’ve got to do is follow the rules, there’s a good driver. The highway code sets out the road arrangements that are found in this country, and all drivers learn according to it. It’s really not difficult.
You cannot merge in the middle of the road without major pre-works (amendments to markings, road studs, signs, barriers etc). Use lanes that are already established is a much more beneficial and practical way to work. Central merging also substantially increases the length of road that requires restricting. I’ve explained it many times before on here.
OpulentBob said:
"Idiots.” Nice.
Your post shows how little you understand traffic management. Whatever your day job is, stick to it. All you’ve got to do is follow the rules, there’s a good driver. The highway code sets out the road arrangements that are found in this country, and all drivers learn according to it. It’s really not difficult.
You cannot merge in the middle of the road without major pre-works (amendments to markings, road studs, signs, barriers etc). Use lanes that are already established is a much more beneficial and practical way to work. Central merging also substantially increases the length of road that requires restricting. I’ve explained it many times before on here.
However, if you fancy a bit of home-schooling, the guidelines are found here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
They’re not difficult to understand, and you may find them interesting. Section D6.8 is probably the most relevant.
Self-appointed road police are not wanted. The merge point and queuing areas are there for a reason, and are in specific locations. The location of the merge points and queuing areas are agreed and signed off with the Police prior to installation, for safety reasons. People blocking available lane capacity are at great risk of pushing the problem of “Oh s
t, stationary traffic, quick, brake!” somewhere else.
On top of this all, you have paid for the open road. Use as much as you can.
But then I’m pretty sure I’ve explained this all to you before. So, I’ll revert to my theory that you’re more than a little bit thick. Idiot, indeed.
If you're going to call people thick then you really can't act all indignant about being called an idiot.Your post shows how little you understand traffic management. Whatever your day job is, stick to it. All you’ve got to do is follow the rules, there’s a good driver. The highway code sets out the road arrangements that are found in this country, and all drivers learn according to it. It’s really not difficult.
You cannot merge in the middle of the road without major pre-works (amendments to markings, road studs, signs, barriers etc). Use lanes that are already established is a much more beneficial and practical way to work. Central merging also substantially increases the length of road that requires restricting. I’ve explained it many times before on here.
However, if you fancy a bit of home-schooling, the guidelines are found here:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
They’re not difficult to understand, and you may find them interesting. Section D6.8 is probably the most relevant.
Self-appointed road police are not wanted. The merge point and queuing areas are there for a reason, and are in specific locations. The location of the merge points and queuing areas are agreed and signed off with the Police prior to installation, for safety reasons. People blocking available lane capacity are at great risk of pushing the problem of “Oh s
t, stationary traffic, quick, brake!” somewhere else.On top of this all, you have paid for the open road. Use as much as you can.
But then I’m pretty sure I’ve explained this all to you before. So, I’ll revert to my theory that you’re more than a little bit thick. Idiot, indeed.
How many threads on this subject have you just come on and simply said 'there is no problem just obey the signs'. And how many threads have you had to post that on?
Obviously there isn't a part of you that reflects that the reason you have to post this so often is because people ARE NOT OBEYING YOUR SIGNS FOR A REASON. The ongoing threads and often problems seen on the road are being caused by your total lack of insight into the problems your department is causing.
How many people on this thread (ignore me) have highlighted that a change in the road markings would be an obvious end to the problems. How many of them have your qualifications?
Your only argument is that road layouts would cost more. And that is balanced against how many accidents it has already caused? I don't understand traffic management but am just totally gobsmacked that this is your field and you can't see what a problem merge in turn is. Next week there'll be another accident or road rage for no other reason than the way the road markings are being interpreted by two distinct groups of people in the UK, and I'm sure next week it'll be posted on here, and next week you'll simply post what the rule is that isn't working as if its some sort of answer without thinking any further as to why.
Sorry, I can't think of another word that describes that sort of public servant.
^^^
I'm afraid I have to agree with Julian over Bob there. If the signage isnt working and it's pretty obvious it isnt, there's little point coming up with 'the regs say thats what we should do', or 'it would cost more to do something people understand'. If the answer is to pay a bit more or revise the regs lets do it.
Some of the proposals - less adavnce warning might cost less
quote=marshalla]And for the checkout analogy :
I know of a canteen where there is a single till - with shelves on either side for trays.
Customers form two queues and the operator processes one from the left, one from the right, one from the left, one from the right...
It's faster. While the person on the left is dealing with their change and collecting napkins etc., the operator has moved on to the one on the right.
[/quote]You're not combining two queues there so it would only work if there were 2 lanes into the merge point and two after and probably with no merge! The closest example Ive seen of what you say is a checkpoint giving out notices of impending traffic survey.
I'm afraid I have to agree with Julian over Bob there. If the signage isnt working and it's pretty obvious it isnt, there's little point coming up with 'the regs say thats what we should do', or 'it would cost more to do something people understand'. If the answer is to pay a bit more or revise the regs lets do it.
Some of the proposals - less adavnce warning might cost less
quote=marshalla]And for the checkout analogy :
I know of a canteen where there is a single till - with shelves on either side for trays.
Customers form two queues and the operator processes one from the left, one from the right, one from the left, one from the right...
It's faster. While the person on the left is dealing with their change and collecting napkins etc., the operator has moved on to the one on the right.
[/quote]You're not combining two queues there so it would only work if there were 2 lanes into the merge point and two after and probably with no merge! The closest example Ive seen of what you say is a checkpoint giving out notices of impending traffic survey.
Edited by saaby93 on Friday 24th April 08:20
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