RE: Shed Of The Week: Alfa Romeo 164
Discussion
Fattyfat said:
I have a pre facelift 166 3.0 Super. Dynamically not the best thing. Fairly nose heavy, the clutch is heavy, some of the interior ergonomics are silly, the braking performance is unexceptional considering the large Brembos fitted, it's an utter swine to work on and some components seem to be made from cheese. s
t turning circle too so it's a pain in tight car parks and the sharp lines leave it prone to car park dings standing out.
However, even it is far from the 'best' Alfa, it really feels special. Drooping nose styling aside, it's a bloody good looking car in a sea of Germanic blandness. The Momo leather interior is sumptuous and the weight of the controls seems to reward when you want them to. The Busso sings and I have the bonnet up on mine every few days, just to look at it.
Subjectively, I have owned better, faster cars but I'm still secretly stashing parts in my garage to enable a bit of a makeover, on a end of life 'worthless car' because I know I'll struggle to replace it. You can forgive its sins and overlook the imperfections (and sometimes financial pain) just to enjoy being a bit different in a world full of more obvious options. I know why the previous owner kept the car 12 years and it took a Quattroporte to tease him elsewhere.
Your right about them being a swine to work on, but due to this I'm doing more and more work on it myself as I cannot afford the labour charges.t turning circle too so it's a pain in tight car parks and the sharp lines leave it prone to car park dings standing out.However, even it is far from the 'best' Alfa, it really feels special. Drooping nose styling aside, it's a bloody good looking car in a sea of Germanic blandness. The Momo leather interior is sumptuous and the weight of the controls seems to reward when you want them to. The Busso sings and I have the bonnet up on mine every few days, just to look at it.
Subjectively, I have owned better, faster cars but I'm still secretly stashing parts in my garage to enable a bit of a makeover, on a end of life 'worthless car' because I know I'll struggle to replace it. You can forgive its sins and overlook the imperfections (and sometimes financial pain) just to enjoy being a bit different in a world full of more obvious options. I know why the previous owner kept the car 12 years and it took a Quattroporte to tease him elsewhere.
Keep the 166, I bet it commands far more attention then the sea of m sport and s-line diesel's. I think the droopy front end is actually growing on me over time as well.
SidewaysSi said:
Really? That may be all well and good but I don't think there has been a great (by that I mean class leading) Alfa for a very very long time.
Yes, I love the looks of them but I can't think of one I would actually buy. And I certainly wouldn't recommend one to friends/family unfortunately. Shame as my sister is currently after a fun car for sub £3k...
Ironically, while there hasn't been a class leading Alfa for... well, as long as I can remember, really, but the one thing they nearly always excel at is at being fun to drive. They're nearly always marked out as the most enjoyable drive and then lose the group test on the practical or objective stuff. Even the understeer that some have complained about on the 4C is a bit of an Alfa trademark and has been that way since at least the Giulias in the '60s. They've nearly always been cars that you tip into corners rather than throw them in.Yes, I love the looks of them but I can't think of one I would actually buy. And I certainly wouldn't recommend one to friends/family unfortunately. Shame as my sister is currently after a fun car for sub £3k...
The one car I miss the most of all my previous, is probably the 164 3 litre v6 Super manual I had which I bought in my final year at uni (2005).
Utterly brilliant car. Comfy, fast, lovely non-bloated looks. The engine is a masterpiece. By the time of the facelift (mine was a facelift), I think they had reduced the amount of torque steer, which was not so much (if at all) of a problem on the twinsparks but was certainly on the v6's!
If I could have one car for everyday driving, I would probably buy a 164 Cloverleaf. Trouble is, there are so few 164s now and the enthusiasts are holding onto them, so finding them is difficult.
Utterly brilliant car. Comfy, fast, lovely non-bloated looks. The engine is a masterpiece. By the time of the facelift (mine was a facelift), I think they had reduced the amount of torque steer, which was not so much (if at all) of a problem on the twinsparks but was certainly on the v6's!
If I could have one car for everyday driving, I would probably buy a 164 Cloverleaf. Trouble is, there are so few 164s now and the enthusiasts are holding onto them, so finding them is difficult.
Warnie said:
SidewaysSi said:
Really? That may be all well and good but I don't think there has been a great (by that I mean class leading) Alfa for a very very long time.
Yes, I love the looks of them but I can't think of one I would actually buy. And I certainly wouldn't recommend one to friends/family unfortunately. Shame as my sister is currently after a fun car for sub £3k...
No offence at all intended si, but you just don't get 'it'. Alfa's are always flawed against the main competition, but it's not about how ultimately good they are, it's about how they make you feel and how you become stupidly obsessed by them no matter what they throw at you. I've had better cars then my gt v6 but it's very rare on the roads that I see something I'd rather be in, not matter how much much expensive or dynamically better the other cars may be. They just don't float my boat.Yes, I love the looks of them but I can't think of one I would actually buy. And I certainly wouldn't recommend one to friends/family unfortunately. Shame as my sister is currently after a fun car for sub £3k...
I'm on my 4th alfa, but this one's a keeper as the busso engined cars are slowly dying out.
But I care about dynamics above all else - steering feel, chassis finesse etc. and Alfa just fails to deliver. I need more than an average car with a decent engine I'm afraid, no matter how good it looks. For too long I fear they have traded on style over substance which is very frustrating.
I would love a modern 105 series car but nothing has come close IMO. I have driven a few but unfortunately there was always something better/more interesting to buy instead which is a real shame.
I still look longingly at the SZ and 75 and think a 156 would make an excellent shed. But I would much rather have an E36 or Honda Accord...
Fattyfat said:
I have a pre facelift 166 3.0 Super. Dynamically not the best thing. Fairly nose heavy, the clutch is heavy, some of the interior ergonomics are silly, the braking performance is unexceptional considering the large Brembos fitted, it's an utter swine to work on and some components seem to be made from cheese. st turning circle too so it's a pain in tight car parks and the sharp lines leave it prone to car park dings standing out.
However, even it is far from the 'best' Alfa, it really feels special. Drooping nose styling aside, it's a bloody good looking car in a sea of Germanic blandness. The Momo leather interior is sumptuous and the weight of the controls seems to reward when you want them to. The Busso sings and I have the bonnet up on mine every few days, just to look at it.
Subjectively, I have owned better, faster cars but I'm still secretly stashing parts in my garage to enable a bit of a makeover, on a end of life 'worthless car' because I know I'll struggle to replace it. You can forgive its sins and overlook the imperfections (and sometimes financial pain) just to enjoy being a bit different in a world full of more obvious options. I know why the previous owner kept the car 12 years and it took a Quattroporte to tease him elsewhere.
I really couldn't have made this point better myselft turning circle too so it's a pain in tight car parks and the sharp lines leave it prone to car park dings standing out.However, even it is far from the 'best' Alfa, it really feels special. Drooping nose styling aside, it's a bloody good looking car in a sea of Germanic blandness. The Momo leather interior is sumptuous and the weight of the controls seems to reward when you want them to. The Busso sings and I have the bonnet up on mine every few days, just to look at it.
Subjectively, I have owned better, faster cars but I'm still secretly stashing parts in my garage to enable a bit of a makeover, on a end of life 'worthless car' because I know I'll struggle to replace it. You can forgive its sins and overlook the imperfections (and sometimes financial pain) just to enjoy being a bit different in a world full of more obvious options. I know why the previous owner kept the car 12 years and it took a Quattroporte to tease him elsewhere.
SidewaysSi said:
Really? That may be all well and good but I don't think there has been a great (by that I mean class leading) Alfa for a very very long time. Yes, I love the looks of them but I can't think of one I would actually buy. And I certainly wouldn't recommend one to friends/family unfortunately. Shame as my sister is currently after a fun car for sub £3k.../quote]
147/156/166 and contemporary GTVs are all pretty great once they've got a Quaife diff in them. Yeah, they're front-wheel-drive, which is a shame, but I wouldn't necessarily let that put me off, even though I think everything bigger than a Mini should be RWD. Class-leading doesn't necessarily mean wonderful. I own two examples of a class-leading car that completely dominated the sector throughout its eight-year product life cycle (BMW E39, 520i M54B22 Touring and 535i M62B35 non-VANOS saloon): they've been an absolute bh to own (well, the 520i has been - the 535i has only been a mild pain in the arse), while they handle beautifully, the ride is too firm for British roads, the soft-touch plastics just scratch too easily, bits of interior trim fall off from time to time, the non-sport seats in the 520i offer about as much lateral support as yer granny's sofa, and I'm getting paranoid about rust (although the 520i is mostly and the 535i is completely rust-free as far as I can see) - really, anyone who says a BMW is better-built or more reliable than an Alfa is talking shíte. Don't get me wrong, they still put a smile on my face when they're working properly (which has been rare with the 520i, and also with the E46 318i I had before it, with about two years' overlap when I had both), but they're every bit as much a labour of love as an Alfa. To be honest, from what I've seen of 166s, I'd say they're better-built than E39s and don't rust like I know E39s can. Also, while I think the E39 is a great-looking car, it's still a case of form following function, clay-modelled in a wind tunnel then had some BMW design cues (Hofmeister kink, kidney grille) slapped on it - whereas the Alfas look like they were designed as sleek four-wheeled works of art then honed in a wind tunnel.
147/156/166 and contemporary GTVs are all pretty great once they've got a Quaife diff in them. Yeah, they're front-wheel-drive, which is a shame, but I wouldn't necessarily let that put me off, even though I think everything bigger than a Mini should be RWD. Class-leading doesn't necessarily mean wonderful. I own two examples of a class-leading car that completely dominated the sector throughout its eight-year product life cycle (BMW E39, 520i M54B22 Touring and 535i M62B35 non-VANOS saloon): they've been an absolute b
h to own (well, the 520i has been - the 535i has only been a mild pain in the arse), while they handle beautifully, the ride is too firm for British roads, the soft-touch plastics just scratch too easily, bits of interior trim fall off from time to time, the non-sport seats in the 520i offer about as much lateral support as yer granny's sofa, and I'm getting paranoid about rust (although the 520i is mostly and the 535i is completely rust-free as far as I can see) - really, anyone who says a BMW is better-built or more reliable than an Alfa is talking shíte. Don't get me wrong, they still put a smile on my face when they're working properly (which has been rare with the 520i, and also with the E46 318i I had before it, with about two years' overlap when I had both), but they're every bit as much a labour of love as an Alfa. To be honest, from what I've seen of 166s, I'd say they're better-built than E39s and don't rust like I know E39s can. Also, while I think the E39 is a great-looking car, it's still a case of form following function, clay-modelled in a wind tunnel then had some BMW design cues (Hofmeister kink, kidney grille) slapped on it - whereas the Alfas look like they were designed as sleek four-wheeled works of art then honed in a wind tunnel.GJR68 said:
Well, if Volvo's are your thing................... then your opinion needs to be taken with a very light pinch of salt.
Hey, don't bash Volvos... I'd love to have a 960/V90 winter barge/dump-run wagon alongside a 166 3.2, an E39 M5 and an E38 750i (yes, I like big saloons)... the problem is, I look at them, then can't get over the fact that there's nothing to make me choose one over a W124 other than the seats...AlecT said:
Do I remember it? here I am sat in it, Motorshow 1988 maybe 89 I was working for Alfa GB then, the V10 engine was right behind me.
Alec
Excellent; I was concerned that I was the only one whose memory went back that far. Next question - do you recall the Alfa Six ? The only person who had a good word about it was Bill Boddy . ISTR 6 carburettor V6 , hopeless fuel economy and no go. The 164 was a peerless masterpiece in comparison . Alec
coppice said:
Excellent; I was concerned that I was the only one whose memory went back that far. Next question - do you recall the Alfa Six ? The only person who had a good word about it was Bill Boddy . ISTR 6 carburettor V6 , hopeless fuel economy and no go. The 164 was a peerless masterpiece in comparison .
I remember the Alfa Six very well, they were on run out when I joined Alfa in about 1987, my pal who ran the import centre had one as a company car and I can assure everybody reading this that it went like rocket in his hands, but then he was a loony driver, are you out there somewhere Howard?
coppice said:
Excellent; I was concerned that I was the only one whose memory went back that far. Next question - do you recall the Alfa Six ? The only person who had a good word about it was Bill Boddy . ISTR 6 carburettor V6 , hopeless fuel economy and no go. The 164 was a peerless masterpiece in comparison .
I remember the 6!!I drove one once...I had a spate of Alfetta ownership (1.8 saloon and 2x 2 litre GTVs) and the 6 was an enlarged Alfetta saloon...unfortunately it handled like a barge with the poke of a suffocated rat! The interior was nice, though :/
Yeah the Six wasn't exactly an auspicious start for what went on to be a legendary engine 
The carbs were part of the problem, but when they stuck fuel injection on it and put it in the GTV6 its potential was realised.
Then they put the carbs back on it (six single choke Dell'Ortos) in SA when they homologated the GTV6 3.0, and that car was a right pain to keep in tune!
Didn't the 90 have the V6 too?
The carbs were part of the problem, but when they stuck fuel injection on it and put it in the GTV6 its potential was realised.
Then they put the carbs back on it (six single choke Dell'Ortos) in SA when they homologated the GTV6 3.0, and that car was a right pain to keep in tune!
Didn't the 90 have the V6 too?
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