Is it time to take Korean cars seriously?

[sparkyhx]

yes and I have one, i30 doing 30k a year at 60mpg, 5 year unlimited warranty - enough kit - whats not to like? Done 50k on original brakes and tyres so far.

Bought it 9months old, so saved a lot, far cheaper than equivalent mainstream manufacturers, and with the remainder of that excellent warranty.

Yes, Its vanilla, but I have another car for fun.

Edited by sparkyhx on Monday 4th May 19:15

[Lodelaner]

fivepointnine said:

Agreed, If they brought the Genesis and Genesis coupe over here I have a feeling the price would swell to where you could almost get an Audi A5/A6 or the like for about the same amount.

They have - http://www.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/genesis

48k if you please.

But it's more about brand stretch - and because they can. :-)

[daemon]

kiseca said:

Only expensive if you're expecting them to sell you the same car for less money than anyone else. They were a budget brand, the question here is should they now be taken seriously? Noone takesxa budget brand seriously.

Well therein lies the problem. They're not - yet - making class leading cars. They're making average or below average cars that are bought on warranty, spec and price.

As i said, that may well change over the next ten years.

So personally, no, now is not the time when i would seriously consider buying one.

[Devil2575]

daemon said:

kiseca said:

Only expensive if you're expecting them to sell you the same car for less money than anyone else. They were a budget brand, the question here is should they now be taken seriously? Noone takesxa budget brand seriously.

Well therein lies the problem. They're not - yet - making class leading cars. They're making average or below average cars that are bought on warranty, spec and price.

As i said, that may well change over the next ten years.

So personally, no, now is not the time when i would seriously consider buying one.

Only one maker produces a class leading car in each segment. So how many of Kia's competitors produce class leading cars?

[daemon]

Devil2575 said:

daemon said:

kiseca said:

Only expensive if you're expecting them to sell you the same car for less money than anyone else. They were a budget brand, the question here is should they now be taken seriously? Noone takesxa budget brand seriously.

Well therein lies the problem. They're not - yet - making class leading cars. They're making average or below average cars that are bought on warranty, spec and price.

As i said, that may well change over the next ten years.

So personally, no, now is not the time when i would seriously consider buying one.

Only one maker produces a class leading car in each segment. So how many of Kia's competitors produce class leading cars?

I meant "in the group of" class leading cars, ie, probably the best two or three.

Sorry that that needed explaining to you.

[sparkyhx]

hora said:

sparkyhx said:

Yes, Its vanilla, but I have another car for fun.

Edited by sparkyhx on Monday 4th May 19:15

A good car if you have a contrast, true. As an only car its a white good(s).

..................but aren't most of the alternatives?

[fivepointnine]

Lodelaner said:

They have - http://www.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/genesis

48k if you please.

But it's more about brand stretch - and because they can. :-)

That is for the V6 model!

I looked at the US site, if you figure in VAT you can get a fully loaded 5.0 version for 48k pounds, the V6 significantly less. I wonder why they cost so much more here?

[ORD]

Lodelaner said:

They have - http://www.hyundai.co.uk/new-cars/genesis

48k if you please.

But it's more about brand stretch - and because they can. :-)

Blimey!!

That is a car priced to sell about 10 units. Awful.

[kiseca]

daemon said:

kiseca said:

Only expensive if you're expecting them to sell you the same car for less money than anyone else. They were a budget brand, the question here is should they now be taken seriously? Noone takesxa budget brand seriously.

Well therein lies the problem. They're not - yet - making class leading cars. They're making average or below average cars that are bought on warranty, spec and price.

As i said, that may well change over the next ten years.

So personally, no, now is not the time when i would seriously consider buying one.

Are they class leading in warranty, spec and price? Even as a petrolhead I find those three values very attractive in a daily hack. But I'm not saying that to disagree with you, on the contrary you have made me look a bit harder at the brand.

Here's where I am. I have driven the Forte, for a week, and on the evidence of that I'd certainly take the brand seriously. Reviews seem to agree with me. I've not driven the Optima. I don't like its looks (subjective), its reviews put it below its competition and you have made me look more closely at the pricing. On the evidence of the Optima I'd reach the same conclusion you have.

So I'm now in the middle I guess. I don't think they need ten years. Perhaps one generation, if that, and some of their range are there already.

[Troubleatmill]

They are very competent cars.

The Equuis and Genesis are nice places to be in.

[Devil2575]

daemon said:

I meant "in the group of" class leading cars, ie, probably the best two or three.

Sorry that that needed explaining to you.

There can only be one leader

[white_goodman]

daemon said:

Well therein lies the problem. They're not - yet - making class leading cars. They're making average or below average cars that are bought on warranty, spec and price.

As i said, that may well change over the next ten years.

So personally, no, now is not the time when i would seriously consider buying one.

Daemon, you seem to have a vendetta against Kia and I'm not sure why. If you don't like them don't buy one!

Just to address a few popular PH misconceptions re Kia:

1) Just because something is not a Kia, it doesn't mean it's better. I don't like the Vauxhall Insignia and probably wouldn't even bother considering one plus Vauxhall don't exactly have a good track record for making reliable diesels! I quite like the new Mondeo (apart from the fact it's a Mondeo) but in US reliability surveys, the Kia Optima has performed significantly better, particularly against Mondeos with Ecoboost engines. The new VW Passat looks pretty good too but hardly has an exciting image and VWs also have their fair share of reliability problems. So, if I was after a new/nearly new midsize car, probably a Mondeo or an Optima for me. I think I would lean towards the Optima for something different (like the styling), unless the Mondeo drove exceptionally well. I guess the Optima only being available as a saloon may limit its potential somewhat though.

2) Kia is no longer a budget brand. 5 years ago certainly but now most (if not all) their model range can stand shoulder-to-shoulder with more established rivals. Are you saying that the Optima isn't at least 10 times better than the Menningitis or whatever we had before? I would say that Kia is probably about where Skoda was 10 years ago. Decent cars but still up against a lot of prejudice. Nowadays, not many would argue that a new Skoda isn't a decent car. A fully-loaded 41k Kia Sorento is not a budget vehicle.

3) "Perceived" quality is up there with its other mainstream rivals i.e. not BMW or Audi levels but better than Nissan and as good as if not better than Ford and Vauxhall, although the interior design is a bit plain compared to some. The Rio that I tried recently had a plainer interior than the Fiesta I also looked at but felt better quality and didn't creak like the Fiesta. I also admire Kia for offering such a long warranty. This shows that they stand by their product and they probably wouldn't offer this if they were going to be coming back for warranty work every 5 minutes. I wish some of the German and Japanese manufacturers would step up and offer as good a warranty, rather than saying their cars are just better quality.

4) Poor residuals. This may be true at the moment but I wonder in 3 years time whether a 3 year old Optima with potentially still 4 years warranty left will be worth less than a 3 year old Mondeo with no warranty. If they were the same price, I would need a very good reason to buy the Mondeo over the Optima.

5) List prices can be misleading i.e. that's not necessarily what you pay. Also, how many people actually pay cash for an 18k+ car? I believe Kia sometimes offer 0% finance, whereas VW never have in my memory.

In short, I don't think anyone is going to dream about owning a Kia but you could say the same for a Vauxhall, Peugeot or Toyota. Mrs white goodman would like a large SUV as her next car and provided they offer good value and are as good as or better than the opposition, a Hyundai Santa Fe or Kia Sorento are quite near to the top of the list.

I get that people still think of Kia as a budget brand and are then disappointed when they're not cheaper than the competition but they do have a fantastic warranty and free servicing, are very well-equipped and as good as most of the competition. The Forte EX (North American equivalent of the Ce'ed) that I drove last year looked fantastic, had more power than, was as refined as and was cheaper and better equipped than the equivalent Focus. The 6-speed automatic gearbox was very impressive too.



I may well get one of these as my next DD:



Kia Forte Koup. 1.6 turbo with 200bhp and cheaper than a Fiesta ST here (Canada). The Optima with the 2.0 turbo petrol (274bhp) is quite appealing too. I can't comment on the diesels, as they are not available here and I have not driven them.

I can certainly see the appeal of the Pro Ce'ed GT too (silly name though). I think 200bhp is about right for a light 3 door hatch (can you really use more than that responsibly on the road?), it looks good, is well-equipped and good value too. Plus, if you have to have more power, someone will be able to chip it for you. Sure, if I was single, I might go for the cheaper Fiesta ST but if you have a family, the Kia is a class size bigger and has a significantly bigger cabin and boot. I don't think we'll see a Kia sports car or supercar but a GT version of every model, in the same vein as vRS is to Skoda would seem viable. 30k for a Golf GTI/R, Megane RS, Astra VXR is too much for a hot hatch IMHO. The only hot hatch that possibly justifies that price tag is the M135i for the engine and the RWD.

Edited by white_goodman on Tuesday 5th May 22:58

Edited by white_goodman on Tuesday 5th May 22:59

Edited by white_goodman on Tuesday 5th May 23:00

[Muddle238]

I drove a new Hyundai i10 recently, very impressed with it. Better than a lot of other cars in the segment including Panda/500, Corsa, Micra etc.

However I also drove a Kia Picanto, to which I wouldn't touch again with a barge pole, given the choice.

For me Korean cars come in leaps and bounds, but I wouldn't put my own money into one just yet. They are too much a white goods car still, too common for my liking.

[daemon]

white_goodman said:

Daemon, you seem to have a vendetta against Kia and I'm not sure why. If you don't like them don't buy one!

Then you didnt bother reading all of my posts. Relative to the question posed by the O/P -

From page 3 - "Typically they're not "best in class" (or usually anywhere near it), but they make up for that with extended warranties, better spec and some quite pleasing designs.I guess you pays your money..."

Page 3 again - "Forty years ago it WASNT time to take japanese cars seriously. They had terminal rust and were quite naff. They were quick learners though. As are the Koreans. Wouldnt rule one out in the future, just the current crop isnt for me."

white_goodman said:

If you don't like them don't buy one!

I didnt. And i explained why on page four "However as someone who bought a nine month old golf a couple of years ago, i'd a choice of pretty much any 5 door in that class. The Golf and Focus are the best in class. The Octavia if you want a bit more space. I didnt need the spec and found the wheelbase of the Focus a bit odd to look at so opted for the Golf. I didnt see any point in buying a KIA or Hyundai as they werent that much cheaper and were dynamically inferior. I gave £12,400 for a 9 month old Golf 1.6TDI S 5 door with metallic paint from a main VW dealer."

In that sense - whilst most on here would say they "would" consider a KIA, i physically was in the market for a white goods high economy diesel car and as such KIA should have been a serious contender, but i ruled it out early on, for the reasons i've stated.

And its not that i dont like them, i just havent seen one yet that i want to own yet. Maybe the 4x4 Sportage or ix35. They're probably closest to hitting the mark for me, but i'm not in the market for a 4x4.

white_goodman said:

1) Just because something is not a Kia, it doesn't mean it's better.

However its generally speaking true. Their cars not to be near best in class and most lack desireability. ie, you buy one for non emotional reasons - long warranty, better spec, 0% finance.

white_goodman said:

I don't like the Vauxhall Insignia

A subjective viewpoint - something you accused me of having? Hardly a good way to "defend" KIA against subjective viewpoints by having a subjective viewpoint, is it?

white_goodman said:

and probably wouldn't even bother considering one

Oops - again - expressing the same sort of views as you accuse us of.

white_goodman said:

plus Vauxhall don't exactly have a good track record for making reliable diesels!

Agreed. Flywheels and DPFs still would worry me in an Insignia.

white_goodman said:

I quite like the new Mondeo (apart from the fact it's a Mondeo) but in US reliability surveys, the Kia Optima has performed significantly better, particularly against Mondeos with Ecoboost engines. The new VW Passat looks pretty good too but hardly has an exciting image and VWs also have their fair share of reliability problems. So, if I was after a new/nearly new midsize car, probably a Mondeo or an Optima for me. I think I would lean towards the Optima for something different (like the styling), unless the Mondeo drove exceptionally well. I guess the Optima only being available as a saloon may limit its potential somewhat though.

Yup. All fair comment.

white_goodman said:

2) Kia is no longer a budget brand.

Indeed. They price themselves at mainstream levels. However if you asked 100 people if KIA were a budget brand the vast majority would say they were. And as my old boss would say "Perception is reality". Likewise there is a perception that VW's are more reliable, when that isnt true, however that is public perception.

white_goodman said:

5 years ago certainly but now most (if not all) their model range can stand shoulder-to-shoulder with more established rivals. Are you saying that the Optima isn't at least 10 times better than the Menningitis or whatever we had before?

Totally agree. And yes, 10 times better than the earlier stuff. If you read my original posts, you'd see i've already said that.

white_goodman said:

I would say that Kia is probably about where Skoda was 10 years ago. Decent cars but still up against a lot of prejudice. Nowadays, not many would argue that a new Skoda isn't a decent car. A fully-loaded 41k Kia Sorento is not a budget vehicle.

Yes, totally. And as i said in my original posts, the landscape will look very different in 10 years time.

And they're up against a lot of prejudice (perception) because they're not quite there yet. Buy a KIA and you're still sharing the road with a Magentis, Karens, Mentor, Rio and Sedona.

I personally think a £41K Sorento exists as a halo model - like an M3 for BMW. To set the perception of what you're buying, when in reality 99% of people dont buy that model. A £41K Sorento pushes the boundaries. Its makes people think maybe KIA arent just a £15K budget car. How many people have actually bought a £41K Sorento with their own hard earned though? I would say you could count them with the fingers of your right foot.

white_goodman said:

3) "Perceived" quality is up there with its other mainstream rivals i.e. not BMW or Audi levels but better than Nissan and as good as if not better than Ford and Vauxhall, although the interior design is a bit plain compared to some. The Rio that I tried recently had a plainer interior than the Fiesta I also looked at but felt better quality and didn't creak like the Fiesta. I also admire Kia for offering such a long warranty. This shows that they stand by their product and they probably wouldn't offer this if they were going to be coming back for warranty work every 5 minutes. I wish some of the German and Japanese manufacturers would step up and offer as good a warranty, rather than saying their cars are just better quality.

Yup. Fair comment. Interestingly i dont think BMW or Merc or VW say their cars are better quality - they build the belief that they are.

white_goodman said:

4) Poor residuals. This may be true at the moment but I wonder in 3 years time whether a 3 year old Optima with potentially still 4 years warranty left will be worth less than a 3 year old Mondeo with no warranty. If they were the same price, I would need a very good reason to buy the Mondeo over the Optima.

Yes, indeed. And thats all part of the benefits for KIA of the 7 year warranty. It helps protect the residuals of used cars when they would otherwise drop like snow falling off a ditch.

Time will tell

white_goodman said:

5) List prices can be misleading i.e. that's not necessarily what you pay. Also, how many people actually pay cash for an 18k+ car? I believe Kia sometimes offer 0% finance, whereas VW never have in my memory.

Very much so. However in that you can get around 10% off a new £25K Kia Optima, you can get that off rivals too.

Yes, 0% is another way of supporting your car in the market. Can be useful and tends to be offered by the likes of Peugeot / Vauxhall to generate market share. Some other brands dont need to use it.

white_goodman said:

In short, I don't think anyone is going to dream about owning a Kia but you could say the same for a Vauxhall, Peugeot or Toyota.

Yup. However some of those alternatives are simply better cars.

white_goodman said:

Mrs white goodman would like a large SUV as her next car and provided they offer good value and are as good as or better than the opposition, a Hyundai Santa Fe or Kia Sorento are quite near to the top of the list.

"provided they offer good value" and "if they are as good as rivals" then a Korean car would be "quite near the top of the list"



Damned with faint praise there. You're on here advocating KIAs but you're putting the exact same caveats around your purchase choice that i did when buying the golf and even then you're saying that would only put a Korean car "quite near" the top of your list.

I'm a sceptic and even i've said i'd seriously consider a Korean 4x4 if i was in the market with more commitment that you.

Oh god, why did i bother typing all this? You're not even convinced yourself by what you're saying.

white_goodman said:

I get that people still think of Kia as a budget brand and are then disappointed when they're not cheaper than the competition but they do have a fantastic warranty and free servicing, are very well-equipped and as good as most of the competition.

So exactly what i've been saying then? KIA are still perceived as a budget brand however they make up for their shortfalls with a long warranty better spec and better pricing.

I said that back on Page 3. Why are you arguing with me?

white_goodman said:

The Forte EX (North American equivalent of the Ce'ed) that I drove last year looked fantastic, had more power than, was as refined as and was cheaper and better equipped than the equivalent Focus. The 6-speed automatic gearbox was very impressive too.

Kia Forte Koup. 1.6 turbo with 200bhp and cheaper than a Fiesta ST here (Canada). The Optima with the 2.0 turbo petrol (274bhp) is quite appealing too. I can't comment on the diesels, as they are not available here and I have not driven them.

So you're not even on the same continent as us, let alone in the same market then?

We wont see a Kia Forte Koup for the same price as a Fiesta ST.

We dont have the wizz bang turbo petrol Optimas here. We just get the wheezy diesel variant.

[daemon]

Muddle238 said:

I drove a new Hyundai i10 recently, very impressed with it. Better than a lot of other cars in the segment including Panda/500, Corsa, Micra etc.

However I also drove a Kia Picanto, to which I wouldn't touch again with a barge pole, given the choice.

For me Korean cars come in leaps and bounds, but I wouldn't put my own money into one just yet. They are too much a white goods car still, too common for my liking.

+1

As a "logical" decision they make sense, however as an emotional decision, they're not there yet.

People who buy an i10 do so because they are cheap and functional. People who buy a Fiat 500 do so because they "want" the car.

[Devil2575]

daemon said:

People who buy a Fiat 500 do so because they "want" a fashion accessory.

EFA

[Dusty964]

Hyundai Centennial and Kia Quoris.....

The interiors are far from what you might expect.. No idea on pricing in the UK, but over here in Dubai they are doing what they did best- offering a car in a size above the competition, with a pretty long spec, and a great warranty.
Unsure how either of them drive, but given the amount of dead straight roads here, to a lot of folk, comfort and refinement is more important than handling. And the ability to sit less than 4mm from the car in front, at a 140kph- unsure if they have that ability either, but would wager they can.

Anyway, not too bad by the looks of it........

[andy-xr]

ORD said:

I don't really see the point in them:-

(1) Not much cheaper than the best in class cars (once you take into account residuals).

(2) Poor engines (in almost every case).

(3) Dull as fk.

A petrolhead wouldn't buy one for the pleasure of driving it; and the average steering wheel operative just wants a nice badge.

I think you're probably saying that as a petrol head type person. The average person who thinks that BMWs are for posers, Audis are for motorway wkers and Fords are generally OK will probably consider a Kia. The second hand market for them is ace, there's lots of car for the money. What they've sacrifieced on performance is more than made up for in service schedules, price, warranty and load space.

If you want a fast car now you're going to have to tune it up from what it left the factory with. That's not changed since the 70s and 80s, other than cars look more sporty due to design rather than sticking big engines in small cars that are relatively affordable. The average car on the roads now is an Insignia or Astra.

Making a car for the 10% of people who might buy it in 8 years time has proven to be not very good in business model terms (see Subaru)

[ORD]

andy-xr said:

I think you're probably saying that as a petrol head type person. The average person who thinks that BMWs are for posers, Audis are for motorway wkers and Fords are generally OK will probably consider a Kia. The second hand market for them is ace, there's lots of car for the money. What they've sacrifieced on performance is more than made up for in service schedules, price, warranty and load space.

If you want a fast car now you're going to have to tune it up from what it left the factory with. That's not changed since the 70s and 80s, other than cars look more sporty due to design rather than sticking big engines in small cars that are relatively affordable. The average car on the roads now is an Insignia or Astra.

Making a car for the 10% of people who might buy it in 8 years time has proven to be not very good in business model terms (see Subaru)

I agree with all of that except for cars not being fast. A boggo diesel is now about as fast as a supposedly fast petrol car from 15 years ago, let alone in the 80s. And standard fast cars are now about as fast as supercars from the 80s.

A sizeable minority of British drivers are pootling around at under 2000 revs in cars that are actually pretty bloody fast compared to what was around when they learned to drive, but they never notice because they don't use the power that is available.

My mum drives a 335i and genuinely asked the other day "Why do cars have so many gears?". Lucky that is an auto and you just stamp and go, otherwise it would be slow as crap in her hands!

[neil1jnr]

daemon said:

Willy Nilly said:

daemon said:

And a plastic fantastic interior

all car interiors are made predominantly of plastic

Different grades / types of plastic.

Are you telling me that interior of that KIA looked like a nice place to be?

As others have said on here that have sat in both, the interior quality of the Kia is on par with VW. On page 5 of this thread there are pictures of 5-6 different interiors including VW and Kia, the Kia's IMO looks the nicest.

Are you telling me that the interior of a KIA is not a nice place to be?

As you said in another post that people would be forever justifying their choice by going on about the 7 year warranty etc, I hear people justifying their choice when they buy VW's; the interior quality is 'better' and they are 'better' made. I think you look more bizaare justifying why you paid a premium for perceived quality rather than why you spent less bought have yourself a 7 year warranty.

Unfortunately I've never driven or been inside a new Kia but I can say that I really don't get what is so good about VW interiors and VAG as a group in general.