RE: Alfa 4C: The Comeback

[kambites]

If you read enough reviews, you very much get to know which journalists have which preferences, biases (mostly subconscious, I'm sure) and writing styles. It does eventually get to the point where you can, from reading a few reviews, be pretty damned certain of how much you're going to like a car without actually driving it.

[ORD]

And once you 'know' a journo well enough you can tell when he actually thinks the car is fairly crap but that others would like it - 4 stars out of 5 but with a lot of a faint praise and subtle criticism. 'The steering is accurate and weights up well at speed, but it would be wrong to say that it majors on feel and communication' - which I read as 'Horrible
Audi/BMW steering, but we're stuck with that these days'

The 4C reviews seem to me to be full of genuine excitement and some disappointment. Journos have either forgiven the car it's foibles or been a bit disappointed. The reviews all read as genuine expressions of opinion to me.

I'll withold ultimate judgment until I drive one or read a decent review from one of my favoured Autocar reviewers - Matt Prior, for example.

[kambites]

ORD said:

'The steering is accurate and weights up well at speed, but it would be wrong to say that it majors on feel and communication' - which I read as 'Horrible
Audi/BMW steering, but we're stuck with that these days'

And indeed Porsche, these days.

[Quickmoose]

Did not our lord and saviour JC 'love it' ?

[otolith]

heebeegeetee said:

They normally own cars themselves, and drive much more than we do too.

You might be right, but I just know that the last word I would take on anything automotive is that Of Joe Public, unless I knew the individual well.

This is Joe Public the car enthusiast. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftEYlrP4Q3w

Quite so - doesn't mean that the journalist is wrong, far from it, just that Joe Public might not actually care. For instance, a car will justly get a panning if it goes to pieces at eight tenths - Joe Public, who never goes beyond five tenths, might not ever notice it. One man's inert handling and lifeless steering is another's "planted". And even when they do appreciate the observations made in the reviews, people have different priorities - the Elise's steering and handling are praised as top notch, which is why I bought one, but for a lot of people the lack of space, minimalism and perceived build quality of the interior would be more important considerations.

While I don't like the idea of a small turbocharged four and an automatic, I do think Alfa probably had to go that route if they want to project a new image of being technically forward looking instead of harking back to past glories. It won't be long, one, maybe two product cycles, before most Porsche sports cars are four cylinder turbos with PDK.

[ORD]

otolith said:

heebeegeetee said:

They normally own cars themselves, and drive much more than we do too.

You might be right, but I just know that the last word I would take on anything automotive is that Of Joe Public, unless I knew the individual well.

This is Joe Public the car enthusiast. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ftEYlrP4Q3w

Quite so - doesn't mean that the journalist is wrong, far from it, just that Joe Public might not actually care. For instance, a car will justly get a panning if it goes to pieces at eight tenths - Joe Public, who never goes beyond five tenths, might not ever notice it. One man's inert handling and lifeless steering is another's "planted". And even when they do appreciate the observations made in the reviews, people have different priorities - the Elise's steering and handling are praised as top notch, which is why I bought one, but for a lot of people the lack of space, minimalism and perceived build quality of the interior would be more important considerations.

While I don't like the idea of a small turbocharged four and an automatic, I do think Alfa probably had to go that route if they want to project a new image of being technically forward looking instead of harking back to past glories. It won't be long, one, maybe two product cycles, before most Porsche sports cars are four cylinder turbos with PDK.

Spot on.

We are told that the 4 cyl engine will be a flat 4 and will be set up to feel more NA than turbocharged.

But I am not holding my breath!

The EU is totally destroying the sports car market for people who enjoy a nice engine and decent manual 'box.

[Quickmoose]

Interesting that Alfa had one of the greatest NA larger displacment engines and now are 'ahead of the curve' with regards to sports car engine configurations....
Hope it works out for them as a company, but mourn the direction....

[kambites]

Quickmoose said:

Interesting that Alfa had one of the greatest NA larger displacment engines and now are 'ahead of the curve' with regards to sports car engine configurations....
Hope it works out for them as a company, but mourn the direction....

I don't really know much about this engine from a technological perspective. Are they "ahead of the curve" or just on the crest of it; is this engine and gearbox significantly more advanced than, say, VAG's 2.0TFSI with a DSG attached?

[kambites]

ORD said:

... and will be set up to feel more NA than turbocharged.

And how often have we been told that before by various manufacturers? The only hope I can see for those engines is if Porsche go down the hybrid route and configure it for some sort of torque-fill type effect but obviously that has its own problems in terms of weight and cost.

[ORD]

kambites said:

And how often have we been told that before by various manufacturers? The only hope I can see for those engines is if Porsche go down the hybrid route and configure it for some sort of torque-fill type effect but obviously that has its own problems in terms of weight and cost.

Ferrari apparently did a decent job of it with the California. But I think that is a completely different ball game. It's one thing to use a turbo to compliment a decent capacity engine; quite another to try to achieve the same effect where the engine, without tc, wouldn't suffice to get the car moving.

I think, though, that we are in a tiny minority on this one. Even the motoring press now love contrived pops and bangs, which you can get easily with a small tc engine. I wonder how many people would actually prefer the Alfa with a NA 5 or 6 cyl engine. It could sound glorious (without pissing about with whizzes and farts), but it wouldn't be any faster. And it wouldn't 'pull hard in any gear', which is apparently now a good thing in a sports car (rather than a turbo diesel).

[kambites]

I certainly wouldn't say Alfa were wrong to use the engine and gearbox combination they have.

[Ruskins]

I think I will wait until I get an opportunity to drive one.

I have a 147 GTA and that didn't do well in the reviews at the time, the Golf GTI/R32 being the recommendation from most journos I believe.

I have had it for more than 7 years and after an upgrade of the Diff and the suspension its rather glorious. Reviews don't always tell the full story I find and certainly don't take into consideration the irrational love of a hunk of metal, which I guess is their point.

[kambites]

Indeed. Plenty of people adore things like 2CVs and Beetles and I don't think they'd fair very well in a modern comparison test.

[Quickmoose]

So we all love a good chat about the specifics of engineering, layout, the stats and the financials...we even enjoy a bit of 'friendly banter' about the subjectives of design.
But I see much less about the charcter and the hard to describe aspects of longer term car ownership and enjoyment here... think Alfa Romeo trump alot of others in this area, and for all the reasons we're all well aware of I can't for the life of me work out how or why....

[ORD]

Quickmoose said:

So we all love a good chat about the specifics of engineering, layout, the stats and the financials...we even enjoy a bit of 'friendly banter' about the subjectives of design.
But I see much less about the charcter and the hard to describe aspects of longer term car ownership and enjoyment here... think Alfa Romeo trump alot of others in this area, and for all the reasons we're all well aware of I can't for the life of me work out how or why....

It has something to do with the British love of foibles (which we call "character") and a distrust of objective excellence. We take little pleasure in something objectively brilliant and a lot of pleasure in something objectively good but carrying flaws.

I cant imagine many other countries in which people actively dislike cars for being "boring" (in the sense of "very well engineered").

I find flaws to be flaws and quite like things that just work brilliantly. My wife loved her 2CV. I was fond of it as a thing but hated it as a car....because it was fking terrible (sorry, Chris H )

[Quickmoose]

ORD said:

It has something to do with the British love of foibles (which we call "character") and a distrust of objective excellence. We take little pleasure in something objectively brilliant and a lot of pleasure in something objectively good but carrying flaws.

I cant imagine many other countries in which people actively dislike cars for being "boring" (in the sense of "very well engineered").

I find flaws to be flaws and quite like things that just work brilliantly. My wife loved her 2CV. I was fond of it as a thing but hated it as a car....because it was fking terrible (sorry, Chris H )

But Rolls Royce, Spitfires, The (original Mini), objectively brilliant, beautifully engineered - but they have character too....
Maybe it's familiarity breeding contempt...
Can't think of many objectively brilliant things that the Brtish consumer hasn't bought by the truck load?, what were you thinking?

but yes, I can appreciate preferring objectively good with a flaw or two...

[ORD]

Quickmoose said:

But Rolls Royce, Spitfires, The (original Mini), objectively brilliant, beautifully engineered - but they have character too....
Maybe it's familiarity breeding contempt...
Can't think of many objectively brilliant things that the Brtish consumer hasn't bought by the truck load?, what were you thinking?

but yes, I can appreciate preferring objectively good with a flaw or two...

I was thinking of the PH hatred for German cars. You're right that the excellent things sell very well (see also iPhones) even if they do attract moaning and not much love.

Maybe I should have distinguished between actual purchasing decisions (revealed preferences) and expressed sentiments - we "love" / "really want" a classic or a Lotus/Noble/TVR/Caterham BUT buy a 911.

[kambites]

I don't think PH hate German cars at all. The whole site seems to worship at the alter of BMW and Porsche.

[ORD]

kambites said:

I don't think PH hate German cars at all. The whole site seems to worship at the alter of BMW and Porsche.

It's a mixture of fan boys and haters, for the most part. I like both Porsche and BMW but get lambasted for criticising both - I am regularly called an idiot for pointing out to would-be buyers that BMW suspension now sucks (except for the M-Sport package), and I am one of the few people on the Porsche pages to note that the marque is moving quickly towards producing fast Audis.

Most "car enthusiasts" spend more time talking about interiors and styling than anything else. Even a lot of reviews tell you little about the car.

Does anyone know whether the brakes on the 4C are progressive or heavily assisted, for example? Is there a dead spot at the top of the throttle travel? Is it dead below 1000rpm like most small capacity turbos? (I hate that characteristic). Will it turn in better with a little braking (you would expect so given the weight distribution)?

(For all that, I am as bad as most given that the air con switchgear in the 4C makes me weep even in photos.)

[Quickmoose]

you clearly have sides here on PH
Choose German brand/hate german brand
understand Italian/French brand/ hate Italian/French brand
Prefer turbo/prefer NA
Don't mind what pump/Hate diesel.

there are many preferences here.

Here we have (generalisaing)
Alfa is an almost brand/Alfa rule
Lotus are the same /Lotuse are NOT the same
small turbo-DSG good/ small turbo-DSG fine
Steering-Geo should be done prior to sale/ steering-geo should be done afterwars anyway.
car journos rule/ownership rules

etc etc