RE: Alfa 4C: The Comeback

[Dagnut]

Quickmoose said:

you clearly have sides here on PH
Choose German brand/hate german brand
understand Italian/French brand/ hate Italian/French brand
Prefer turbo/prefer NA
Don't mind what pump/Hate diesel.

there are many preferences here.

Here we have (generalisaing)
Alfa is an almost brand/Alfa rule
Lotus are the same /Lotuse are NOT the same
small turbo-DSG good/ small turbo-DSG fine
Steering-Geo should be done prior to sale/ steering-geo should be done afterwars anyway.
car journos rule/ownership rules

etc etc

And that's what makes this a great forum.

[Pat H]

Stereotyping is good....


Porsche/BMW are made from totally different ingredients from Alfa/Lotus.

The German stuff is made up of 7 parts efficiency and 3 parts boring.

Alfa and Lotus are 6 parts style, two parts brilliance and one part crap. The other part broke.


I own two Alfas, one Lotus and a TVR. As the old cliché goes, I would rather push my Alfa than drive a BMW.


I have never sat in a 4C, let alone driven one. But my last five Alfas suggest that a 4C will be a beguiling mixture of magnificent style, some brilliant engineering, a huge dose of character and charm and a small, but irritating amount of crapness.

I expect that I am going to love it.

[heebeegeetee]

Cant help thinking, if it wasn't for the boring Germans where would we get our flat engines and rear-engined cars from?

[kambites]

ORD said:

kambites said:

I don't think PH hate German cars at all. The whole site seems to worship at the alter of BMW and Porsche.

It's a mixture of fan boys and haters, for the most part. I like both Porsche and BMW but get lambasted for criticising both - I am regularly called an idiot for pointing out to would-be buyers that BMW suspension now sucks (except for the M-Sport package), and I am one of the few people on the Porsche pages to note that the marque is moving quickly towards producing fast Audis.

Most "car enthusiasts" spend more time talking about interiors and styling than anything else. Even a lot of reviews tell you little about the car.

Sounds familiar, certainly.

[Quickmoose]

ORD said:

Most "car enthusiasts" spend more time talking about interiors and styling than anything else. Even a lot of reviews tell you little about the car.

Guilty m'lud


but then I don't have much opportunity to drive these wonderful things...from dull white goods to rare exotica, I'll only talk forcefully about what I know... and what I know is only my opinion so I am on strong territory!!

[ORD]

heebeegeetee said:

Cant help thinking, if it wasn't for the boring Germans where would we get our flat engines and rear-engined cars from?

The engine in the GT3 is about the least boring thing that I have ever heard! I want one so badly (the engine - the rest of the car doesn't excite me so much).

[Ali_T]

ORD said:

(For all that, I am as bad as most given that the air con switchgear in the 4C makes me weep even in photos.)

Really? I set to 21C, set to auto and never touch them again. I wouldn't notice if they were made of Lego beyond that.

[Slippydiff]

Slippydiff said:

I do, did you actually read the piece ? Others clearly did :

"The tram-lining and heavy then light steering sounds like a geometry issue that should be sortable without too much fuss and the throttle response via software.
Those seats though! what were they thinking!"

That might be good execution in your books (and clearly is for the Italians, bless 'em), it's not in mine. The end.

Juve said:

Have you driven the 4C? If not! Your post is utterly worthless. Or, are you the kind of person who makes decisions based around what the other person said!The end.

Juve said:

Your comment is as pathetic as the review! I wouldn't trade my 4C for the world! It's a pure driving machine!

Juve said:

Drive one then get back to me!

I'd suggest you wouldn't know a pure driving machine if it smacked you in the face. Furthermore, your display of cognitive bias makes you look distinctly pathetic.

As for driving one, I wouldn't waste my time, I know it would be found wanting in so many key areas, the drive would be utterly hopeless.

But get back to me when you've driven even a few of the cars I've listed below, then we can discuss "Pure driving machines".

Mk1 Escort Mexico (1st car)
Chevette HS
Opel Ascona 400
E30 M3 Evo 2
Sapphire Cosworth 2WD
Impreza 22B One of the 16 UK cars
964 RS Midnight Blue
964 RS Guards Red
993 RS Guards Red
Impreza P1
Mk1 996 GT3 Zanzibar
964 RS Rubystone
996 GT2 Midnight Blue
Gen 1997 GT3 Meteor Grey
Subaru Impreza WRC car (the 2nd WRC car Prodrive built)
Mk1 996 GT3 Zanzibar (I bought it back ! !)
M3 CSL
996 GT2 Basalt Black (Ohlins, remap, Ruf exhaust)
996 GT3 RS White with Red
Gen 1 997 GT3 Slate Grey
1M Coupe Orange
1M Coupe White AP 6 pots, Sparco race seats install, decat, custom geo set up.
M6 V10
964 RS Ferrari Yellow
Mk1 996 GT3 Black

Until then, keep enjoying what you perceive to be your "Pure drivers car". And perhaps change your username to ParochialJuve

[TA14]

Slippydiff said:

Slippydiff said:

I do, did you actually read the piece ? Others clearly did :

"The tram-lining and heavy then light steering sounds like a geometry issue that should be sortable without too much fuss and the throttle response via software..."

That might be good execution in your books (and clearly is for the Italians, bless 'em), it's not in mine. The end.

That's quite a contradiction SD. You say that you wouldn't bother driving the 4C because you may need to sort out the suspension geometry and have a remap then go on to list a cars that presumably you have driven which have had suspension work and remaps

[Quickmoose]

Am wondering whether I should be taking the colours into consideration also... many 964RS's there... was th ered one better or worse than the yellow one?

Helluva list though, would love to drive some of those...

[TA14]

Quickmoose said:

Am wondering whether I should be taking the colours into consideration also... many 964RS's there... was th ered one better or worse than the yellow one?

I wonder why only the Porsches and half of the BMWs get a colour mention.

[Ali_T]

kambites said:

I don't think PH hate German cars at all. The whole site seems to worship at the alter of BMW and Porsche.

All on lease deals....in white!

[Ali_T]

ORD said:

The G isn't that bad, actually, but I wouldn't have one over a Mazda 3 or 1 series - it isn't class leading in my book. Others can have different opinions.

Yup. I test drove the M135i, A45 , Golf R and Focus ST....and bought the GQV. Not that it was objectively better than the others but, subjectively, it was just more characterful and more fun. I just fell for its charms and its old school feel. The Focus came closest to being purchased. The other three, while being much faster, impressed me on a cerebral level and bored me on a fun level! Had Mazda bothered to make a 3MPS, I'd have test driven one, but their petrol engines top out at 150bhp which is sad for a once great sporting manufacturer.

ORD said:

I've read just about every review of the 4C and none of them have persuaded me that it is worth test-driving. And anyone who buys a car without test-driving it probably shouldn't ask to be taken seriously by other car enthusiasts.

That's true, but discounting it based on journalist opinions is just as bad. Had I not watched the review of the GQV on Tartan Tarmac's site, i'd have let it bypass me completely. As it is, finding one good review made me at least try it and Im glad I did!

Edited by Ali_T on Monday 18th May 11:27

[Ali_T]

Slippydiff said:

I'd suggest you wouldn't know a pure driving machine if it smacked you in the face. Furthermore, your display of cognitive bias makes you look distinctly pathetic.

As for driving one, I wouldn't waste my time, I know it would be found wanting in so many key areas, the drive would be utterly hopeless.

But get back to me when you've driven even a few of the cars I've listed below, then we can discuss "Pure driving machines".

Mk1 Escort Mexico (1st car)
Chevette HS
Opel Ascona 400
E30 M3 Evo 2
Sapphire Cosworth 2WD
Impreza 22B One of the 16 UK cars
964 RS Midnight Blue
964 RS Guards Red
993 RS Guards Red
Impreza P1
Mk1 996 GT3 Zanzibar
964 RS Rubystone
996 GT2 Midnight Blue
Gen 1997 GT3 Meteor Grey
Subaru Impreza WRC car (the 2nd WRC car Prodrive built)
Mk1 996 GT3 Zanzibar (I bought it back ! !)
M3 CSL
996 GT2 Basalt Black (Ohlins, remap, Ruf exhaust)
996 GT3 RS White with Red
Gen 1 997 GT3 Slate Grey
1M Coupe Orange
1M Coupe White AP 6 pots, Sparco race seats install, decat, custom geo set up.
M6 V10
964 RS Ferrari Yellow
Mk1 996 GT3 Black

Until then, keep enjoying what you perceive to be your "Pure drivers car". And perhaps change your username to ParochialJuve

Hooray, first genuine willy waving post of the thread.

[ORD]

Ali_T said:

That's true, but discounting it based on journalist opinions is just as bad. Had I not watched the review of the GQV on Tartan Tarmac's site, i'd have let it bypass me completely. As it is, finding one good review made me at least try it and Im glad I did!

Edited by Ali_T on Monday 18th May 11:27

To an extent, I agree. But I don't read the review to see whether the reviewer likes the car but for information about it - e.g. does it have decent steering feel? how well does the engine rev? is there throttle or turbo lag? how does the engine sound? If the answers to those relatively objective questions all turn me off, I wouldn't waste my time arranging a test drive.

[Quickmoose]

ORD said:

To an extent, I agree. But I don't read the review to see whether the reviewer likes the car but for information about it - e.g. does it have decent steering feel? how well does the engine rev? is there throttle or turbo lag? how does the engine sound? If the answers to those relatively objective questions all turn me off, I wouldn't waste my time arranging a test drive.

They're not objective on the whole... sounds and feelings are subjective
How 'well' does it rev? compared to what? compared to what other cars the journo has driven or compared to other cars you have driven.
The only objective stuff is the stats on paper.
Everything else is personal.

Bottom line is it's personal even with the stats.
I've just bought a Prodrive Brera. Stats say it's comparatively slow, heavy and uneconomical.
I could've bought something for the same money that top trumps it in every statistical way.
Don't care.
I preferred it on a purely subjective, personal level.

[ORD]

Quickmoose said:

They're not objective on the whole... sounds and feelings are subjective
How 'well' does it rev? compared to what? compared to what other cars the journo has driven or compared to other cars you have driven.
The only objective stuff is the stats on paper.
Everything else is personal.

Bottom line is it's personal even with the stats.
I've just bought a Prodrive Brera. Stats say it's comparatively slow, heavy and uneconomical.
I could've bought something for the same money that top trumps it in every statistical way.
Don't care.
I preferred it on a purely subjective, personal level.

Fair enough, but if the car starts from the point of having, on paper, things you don't like, isn't it a good idea to see whether they (perhaps miraculously) are hidden well?

For example, if I had read reviews saying "The 4C's engine doesn't sound or feel like a turbo 4 pot- it revs and sounds like a 6 cyl engine and has no turbo lag." I would be excited about it.

[Ali_T]

There are plenty of reviews that praise the engine. I hardly notice any lag in the much heavier Giulietta with the same engine. Meanwhile, the A45 gets praised for minimal lag and I found it to have plenty enough, like an early '90s Saab or Scooby. It's another subjective point.

[Quickmoose]

for you that makes total sense. There can be no argument.

If I read that that the 4cyl 1.75 turbo sounded gruff and failed to rev cleanly and quickly with abhorrent turbo lag, I'd still test drive it because so many other aspects (that appeal to me) delivered.... so that I could make absolutely sure... I mean you say you don't want to waste your time going for a test drive.....but when spending £50k and more how can any test drive be a waste of time?

[TA14]

ORD said:

For example, if I had read reviews saying "The 4C's engine doesn't sound or feel like a turbo 4 pot- it revs and sounds like a 6 cyl engine and has no turbo lag." I would be excited about it.

That's your choice; if I read that a four cyl sounds like a 6 cyl I'd think that the reporter doesn't know what he's talking about and doubt the whole report.