RE: Alfa 4C: The Comeback

[Quickmoose]

The age old 'problem' of buying a top of the range 'good' brand, or the bottom of the range 'better ' brand.... seems fine to me Alfa chew at the bottom of Porsche whilst Ferrari chew at the top...and Maserati slowly get their act together for the middle....

It's never straightforward, all these percentages of buyers who don't care (I question many people don't give much thought to spending £50k but anyway) is besides the point. Alfa will have done their sums, they won't be aiming for the numbers that Porsche are with the Boxster/Cayman. They're appealing to those that remember what Alfa have in their back catalogue, tugging on the romance, history and the ability for their brand to transcend their 80's build quality mess.
Their doing re-entering the market with the perfect 'toy' forward looking, exotic, not ubiquitous, or expected. They are aiming at 'us' or those within us that are in the market for it.

Its obvious that within the car enthusiast number, Alfa do well, witness the words usd by PH themselves in SotW, or any other forum, automotive publication. The 8C and the 4C have done waht was required - get their name back at the front, get it discussed, argued over even...because shortly we'll be seeing their 3 series rival - or the product they are banking on more than they are banking on the 4C.

In short I think they'll are/will be plenty/enough buyers who have signed up to the idea already and will work around any shortcomings (geo). because they love the brand, people who decline teutonic efficiency at every step.

A little slice of Italian red sportscar. The history is rich, rare and special. review reading non-test driving stat loving efficient and financially astute non-enthusiasts need not apply

For the record I used to collect Porsches when I was little back in the 80's I used to write to F C Ferdinand Porsche and few times he wrote back in pen and ink(?!), I collected their brochures from the local dealership, drew them and wateched them and eventually owned one.

There is room to love both, appreiate both for what they offer. te german brand famously does not offer 'emotion' in th esame way an Italian brand does...it just doesn't. Different buying demographic, and if the 4C demographic wasn't there, Fiat would not have signed off on it to be made.

[chrispmartha]

Dagnut said:

I've no prejudices against any owners, I'm not brand loyal never will be, but it's always the Porsche owners you go on the attack against new sports cars.
370z - "Too noisy and cheaply made not as good as Cayman!" - no sh!t its 15 k cheaper!
GT 86 - "No power terrible badge- get a second hand Cayman!" - no sh!t its 20k cheaper!
4C- "no manual way over priced , tram lines and rides terrible (none of them having driven the thing)" - A 50k car with carbon tub and DSG with those looks is over priced? Compared to a Cayman?

You've no prejudices and then go on to prejudge people.

Is everyone on here thats criticised the 4C Porsche owners? are all the Journalists Porsche owners?

[chrispmartha]

Quickmoose said:

The age old 'problem' of buying a top of the range 'good' brand, or the bottom of the range 'better ' brand.... seems fine to me Alfa chew at the bottom of Porsche whilst Ferrari chew at the top...and Maserati slowly get their act together for the middle....

It's never straightforward, all these percentages of buyers who don't care (I question many people don't give much thought to spending £50k but anyway) is besides the point. Alfa will have done their sums, they won't be aiming for the numbers that Porsche are with the Boxster/Cayman. They're appealing to those that remember what Alfa have in their back catalogue, tugging on the romance, history and the ability for their brand to transcend their 80's build quality mess.
Their doing re-entering the market with the perfect 'toy' forward looking, exotic, not ubiquitous, or expected. They are aiming at 'us' or those within us that are in the market for it.

Its obvious that within the car enthusiast number, Alfa do well, witness the words usd by PH themselves in SotW, or any other forum, automotive publication. The 8C and the 4C have done waht was required - get their name back at the front, get it discussed, argued over even...because shortly we'll be seeing their 3 series rival - or the product they are banking on more than they are banking on the 4C.

In short I think they'll are/will be plenty/enough buyers who have signed up to the idea already and will work around any shortcomings (geo). because they love the brand, people who decline teutonic efficiency at every step.

A little slice of Italian red sportscar. The history is rich, rare and special. review reading non-test driving stat loving efficient and financially astute non-enthusiasts need not apply

For the record I used to collect Porsches when I was little back in the 80's I used to write to F C Ferdinand Porsche and few times he wrote back in pen and ink(?!), I collected their brochures from the local dealership, drew them and wateched them and eventually owned one.

There is room to love both, appreiate both for what they offer. te german brand famously does not offer 'emotion' in th esame way an Italian brand does...it just doesn't. Different buying demographic, and if the 4C demographic wasn't there, Fiat would not have signed off on it to be made.

I agree with this, I hope it triggers a return to form for Alfa as I think the car world needs a brand like Alfa.

[Pooh]

chrispmartha said:

Pooh said:

my experience of Alfa owners is that they tend to be very knowledgeable about cars.

I know someone with an Alfa Mito - they don't know anything about cars, otherwise they might not have bought an Alfa Mito ;-)


But to be serious, I know what you are saying, I just personally think you're in a minority. And yes the car is selling out but how many are they making?

Obviously not all Alfa owners are knowledgeable enthusiasts but many are. I remember discussing this with a salesman at my local Alfa dealer, he said that he has sold many different brands of car from BMWs to Citroens and none of the buyers were even close to being as knowledgeable as many Alfa buyers, in fact he said that they frequently have a better knowledge of the car and brand than any of the salesmen.
Alfa are doubling production of the 4C to try and keep up with demand but I am not sure how many they are building.
As an aside, what is wrong with the Mito? I once had a 130 Multiair Distinctive (with the Koni FSD dampers)as a loan car and it was a nice little car that was good fun down a twisty road.

[chrispmartha]

Pooh said:

Obviously not all Alfa owners are knowledgeable enthusiasts but many are. I remember discussing this with a salesman at my local Alfa dealer, he said that he has sold many different brands of car from BMWs to Citroens and none of the buyers were even close to being as knowledgeable as many Alfa buyers, in fact he said that they frequently have a better knowledge of the car and brand than any of the salesmen.
Alfa are doubling production of the 4C to try and keep up with demand but I am not sure how many they are building.
As an aside, what is wrong with the Mito? I once had a 130 Multiair Distinctive (with the Koni FSD dampers)as a loan car and it was a nice little car that was good fun down a twisty road.

I was joking about the Mito, it may be a great little car, I've never driven one, but again doesn't get great reviews and seems expensive for what it is.

[ORD]

I agree with Quickmoose.

If the aim is to sell a few cars to Alfa lovers and enthusiasts, that is a wholly different matter.

But that really is a tiny market:

Car enthusiasts (small market) who like auto boxes (even smaller) and small capacity turbo engines (vanishingly small).

I expect that at least half of sales (as with all sports cars) will be to people with lots of money who want some bling. If that is right, the pricing is only explicable on the basis that Fiat doesn't expect to sell many units.

All the talk of this being a car for people who want character and soul rather than efficiency is quite funny. It's running an Ecobox turbo engine with a farty exhaust and auto box - it's hardly a throwback to the golden age of motoring (contrast the GT86 with its manual box and free-revving NA engine)! If you combined the best bits from the 4C with the best bits from the Toyota, you would then have a proper sports car

All that said, I love that Alfa went for a carbon tub and unassisted steering.

[braddo]

All too often, I get the impression people get stuck with the idea that only the cars that win magazine comparisons are worth having, and that the other competitors are therefore automatically st, and thus anyone who buys those 'loser' cars are idiots.

It's as if everyone should be happy with the VW Golf, 3-series, Boxster/Cayman and 911 and all other manufacturers should just give up and close down.

I see a similar thing with engines on PH. BMW and Porsche have typically produced market-leading engines. Every other engine gets criticised for being st because they're not as good as the market leaders (e.g. 4C's engine and Toyota engines in Lotuses).

It is a question degrees of difference; varying degrees of very good; not a binary good/bad.

[heebeegeetee]

Dagnut said:

I've no prejudices against any owners, I'm not brand loyal never will be, but it's always the Porsche owners you go on the attack against new sports cars.
370z - "Too noisy and cheaply made not as good as Cayman!" - no sh!t its 15 k cheaper!
GT 86 - "No power terrible badge- get a second hand Cayman!" - no sh!t its 20k cheaper!
4C- "no manual way over priced , tram lines and rides terrible (none of them having driven the thing)" - A 50k car with carbon tub and DSG with those looks is over priced? Compared to a Cayman?

It's interesting if indeed the 4CS is priced the same as a Cayman GTS.

If so, here are two cars that very much appeal to the keen driver, but one has been fairly slated by professional keen drivers while one has had nothing but praise heaped upon it.

Does this not mean therefore that those choosing the 4C are doing so for all the reasons bar being a good drive?

A Carbon tub, dsg box and those gorgeous looks are one thing, but when you look at the repertoire of the Cayman, from being a car that could reasonably cross Europe, can be taken on long drives because it holds luggage and plenty of fuel, yet can attack a track a s good as any, then isn't a car that can't do much of that overpriced if its selling for the same money?

It does seem that to choose the Alfa you are going for the ingredients but to hell with what the pudding tastes like.

Whether we agree with the tram lining or not, it does seem that no professional (that I've seen anyway) is saying the 4C's handling stands direct comparison with Loti or Porsche.

If one does like the tram-lining etc and sees this as something that marks the car out as a drivers car, don't forget that all you need to do to your Cayman is get underneath with a bag of spanners and attack the cars alignment - you'll soon have something that requires full attention when driving, and thus in the eyes of many a private owner will thus be a "driver's" car.

[ORD]

I agree with that, but there's also a bizarre counteracting tendency for people to deliberately avoid and hate the market leader.

The 3 series is probably the best example. Loads of people avoid it like the plague because of its status and prefer to drive around in an Audi or whatever simply because it isn't the BMW. Sure, by a FWD Audi if you actually prefer it, but it's crazy to buy one just to avoid buying the BMW.

I agree re engines. It's now bloody hard to make a sports car engine pay for itself, so we (I) should probably not be so critical when we get sports cars with ecobox engines.

[andrewparker]

ORD said:

I agree with that, but there's also a bizarre counteracting tendency for people to deliberately avoid and hate the market leader.

The Golf R is probably the best example.

[ORD]

andrewparker said:

Different thing - I'm a naysayer and don't see the point in the whole market sector of '4 cyl performance hatches'. But you are right to a limited extent - the Golf R is definitely the market leader amongst its abhorrent brethren

[Quickmoose]

Citreon, Subaru, Volvo, Alfa, I chose these brands in my past because of what success brought the likes of modern BMW/VAG et al....ubiquity. I just don't like roads that full of the same grey shapes.
So as said before choosing an alternative is not 'bad' it's just different.

Once the numbers of them die through scrappage schemes and the select few become classics, (E46 for example) then I become interested again as I did when owning a Porsche and a few Hondas...their 'faces' less common, they become wholey more attractive to me

As for the ever dwindling market share for a 2 seater Alfa..that has an auto...and a small capacity turbo 4.... again, people disuaded by that aren't who they are after. The guy that at least has the common sense(an there by knowledge and enthusiasm) to test drive one... get the percentage of them. Let the 50% of near OAP golfers go elsewhere (apologies for sweeping generalisation...)

[heebeegeetee]

I also can't help thinking that the hardcore enthusiast knows that a'test drive' is all but worthless...

[braddo]

Quickmoose said:

As for the ever dwindling market share for a 2 seater Alfa..that has an auto...and a small capacity turbo 4....

If it is dwindling, Alfa's problem will be no different to Porsche's.

It seems the vast majority of Box/Caymans and 911s now sold are autos, and a small capacity turbo 4 is what the 2-seaters are going to be in a couple of years' time.

I think non-GT 911s are all going to be turbos within the next 12 months?

Anyway, I seriously doubt Mr Average Porsche Buyer is any more an enthusiast than those buying 4Cs; he/she is probably less so (even if they are driving a technically superior car.... whose talents they never exploit!).

[Pooh]

lots of people getting very hung up on the gearbox and the price.
The gearbox may technically be automatic but like the MC shift box in my Maserati I would be amazed if anybody uses it as anything other than a manual box for most of the time. I never drive my Maserati in auto because it is so much fun in manual sport mode and I have the same (or better)level of control that I would have with an old style manual.
Regarding the price, if you have the money to buy a car of this type then the price does not have a lot of influence on the true cost, what matters is depreciation over the period that you own the car along with running costs. The Alfa holds its value very well, has good fuel economy and reasonable service costs so could well work out as a significantly cheaper car to own than some of the obvious rivals.

[g7jhp]

Pooh said:

lots of people getting very hung up on the gearbox and the price.
The gearbox may technically be automatic but like the MC shift box in my Maserati I would be amazed if anybody uses it as anything other than a manual box for most of the time. I never drive my Maserati in auto because it is so much fun in manual sport mode and I have the same (or better)level of control that I would have with an old style manual.
Regarding the price, if you have the money to buy a car of this type then the price does not have a lot of influence on the true cost, what matters is depreciation over the period that you own the car along with running costs. The Alfa holds its value very well, has good fuel economy and reasonable service costs so could well work out as a significantly cheaper car to own than some of the obvious rivals.

Most 4C's seem to be £50-59k with circa 100-1,700 miles. Seems prices hold if you don't use it.

The new 981 Boxster Spyder, 981 Cayman GT4 or a used 987.2 Boxster Spyder would seem to offer better residuals even when used.

[Pooh]

g7jhp said:

Most 4C's seem to be £50-59k with circa 100-1,700 miles. Seems prices hold if you don't use it.

The new 981 Boxster Spyder, 981 Cayman GT4 or a used 987.2 Boxster Spyder would seem to offer better residuals even when used.

Given the length of the waiting list for a new one, I think they should hold their value pretty well even with a few miles on the clock and I would be buying second hand rather than new so that should help.
Do you have any depreciation figures for the cars you mentioned? To be honest I would regard a lotus Exige V6 as more of an option then a Boxter/Caymen and from what I have seen they seem to lose value fairly rapidly at least initially.

[Oilchange]

I doubt it. I would expect the Alfa to keep it's value whilst the Porsches plummet and but would any of those three get these reactions...

"Never have I known such universal appreciation for a car; kids wanted to sit in it, fellow drivers nodded in approval and even the female reception was positive."

[TA14]

Pooh said:

g7jhp said:

Most 4C's seem to be £50-59k with circa 100-1,700 miles. Seems prices hold if you don't use it.

The new 981 Boxster Spyder, 981 Cayman GT4 or a used 987.2 Boxster Spyder would seem to offer better residuals even when used.

Given the length of the waiting list for a new one, I think they should hold their value pretty well even with a few miles on the clock and I would be buying second hand rather than new so that should help.
Do you have any depreciation figures for the cars you mentioned? To be honest I would regard a lotus Exige V6 as more of an option then a Boxter/Caymen and from what I have seen they seem to lose value fairly rapidly at least initially.

I thought that the 4C sold at £45K to £60K that would have g7 giving the 4C at least 100% residual value; do the Cayman and Boxster really have a residual value better than that?

[ORD]

TA14 said:

I thought that the 4C sold at £45K to £60K that would have g7 giving the 4C at least 100% residual value; do the Cayman and Boxster really have a residual value better than that?

The GT/R versions do, yes; but a boggo Porsche will depreciate pretty sharply and I would think much faster than a 4C (which has far more restricted supplies).