RE: Alfa 4C: The Comeback
Discussion
heebeegeetee said:
It's interesting if indeed the 4CS is priced the same as a Cayman GTS.
If so, here are two cars that very much appeal to the keen driver, but one has been fairly slated by professional keen drivers while one has had nothing but praise heaped upon it.
Does this not mean therefore that those choosing the 4C are doing so for all the reasons bar being a good drive?
A Carbon tub, dsg box and those gorgeous looks are one thing, but when you look at the repertoire of the Cayman, from being a car that could reasonably cross Europe, can be taken on long drives because it holds luggage and plenty of fuel, yet can attack a track a s good as any, then isn't a car that can't do much of that overpriced if its selling for the same money?
It does seem that to choose the Alfa you are going for the ingredients but to hell with what the pudding tastes like.
Whether we agree with the tram lining or not, it does seem that no professional (that I've seen anyway) is saying the 4C's handling stands direct comparison with Loti or Porsche.
If one does like the tram-lining etc and sees this as something that marks the car out as a drivers car, don't forget that all you need to do to your Cayman is get underneath with a bag of spanners and attack the cars alignment - you'll soon have something that requires full attention when driving, and thus in the eyes of many a private owner will thus be a "driver's" car.
I didn't compare it to the Cayman expect to say the the original Cayman wasn't very well received and now is the market leader by some distance. Alfa have gone a different route and may have fallen short for UK roads with their first attempt, but it is their first attempt.If so, here are two cars that very much appeal to the keen driver, but one has been fairly slated by professional keen drivers while one has had nothing but praise heaped upon it.
Does this not mean therefore that those choosing the 4C are doing so for all the reasons bar being a good drive?
A Carbon tub, dsg box and those gorgeous looks are one thing, but when you look at the repertoire of the Cayman, from being a car that could reasonably cross Europe, can be taken on long drives because it holds luggage and plenty of fuel, yet can attack a track a s good as any, then isn't a car that can't do much of that overpriced if its selling for the same money?
It does seem that to choose the Alfa you are going for the ingredients but to hell with what the pudding tastes like.
Whether we agree with the tram lining or not, it does seem that no professional (that I've seen anyway) is saying the 4C's handling stands direct comparison with Loti or Porsche.
If one does like the tram-lining etc and sees this as something that marks the car out as a drivers car, don't forget that all you need to do to your Cayman is get underneath with a bag of spanners and attack the cars alignment - you'll soon have something that requires full attention when driving, and thus in the eyes of many a private owner will thus be a "driver's" car.
The Cayman is a superb car but I don't know why it's owners and boxsters owners feel the need to go on the offence against other cars...same way 911 owners felt the need to assault the GTR..its not imagined or prejudiced the posts are there on record.
chrispmartha said:
Quickmoose said:
The age old 'problem' of buying a top of the range 'good' brand, or the bottom of the range 'better ' brand.... seems fine to me Alfa chew at the bottom of Porsche whilst Ferrari chew at the top...and Maserati slowly get their act together for the middle....
It's never straightforward, all these percentages of buyers who don't care (I question many people don't give much thought to spending £50k but anyway) is besides the point. Alfa will have done their sums, they won't be aiming for the numbers that Porsche are with the Boxster/Cayman. They're appealing to those that remember what Alfa have in their back catalogue, tugging on the romance, history and the ability for their brand to transcend their 80's build quality mess.
Their doing re-entering the market with the perfect 'toy' forward looking, exotic, not ubiquitous, or expected. They are aiming at 'us' or those within us that are in the market for it.
Its obvious that within the car enthusiast number, Alfa do well, witness the words usd by PH themselves in SotW, or any other forum, automotive publication. The 8C and the 4C have done waht was required - get their name back at the front, get it discussed, argued over even...because shortly we'll be seeing their 3 series rival - or the product they are banking on more than they are banking on the 4C.
In short I think they'll are/will be plenty/enough buyers who have signed up to the idea already and will work around any shortcomings (geo). because they love the brand, people who decline teutonic efficiency at every step.
A little slice of Italian red sportscar. The history is rich, rare and special. review reading non-test driving stat loving efficient and financially astute non-enthusiasts need not apply
For the record I used to collect Porsches when I was little back in the 80's I used to write to F C Ferdinand Porsche and few times he wrote back in pen and ink(?!), I collected their brochures from the local dealership, drew them and wateched them and eventually owned one.
There is room to love both, appreiate both for what they offer. te german brand famously does not offer 'emotion' in th esame way an Italian brand does...it just doesn't. Different buying demographic, and if the 4C demographic wasn't there, Fiat would not have signed off on it to be made.
I agree with this, I hope it triggers a return to form for Alfa as I think the car world needs a brand like Alfa.It's never straightforward, all these percentages of buyers who don't care (I question many people don't give much thought to spending £50k but anyway) is besides the point. Alfa will have done their sums, they won't be aiming for the numbers that Porsche are with the Boxster/Cayman. They're appealing to those that remember what Alfa have in their back catalogue, tugging on the romance, history and the ability for their brand to transcend their 80's build quality mess.
Their doing re-entering the market with the perfect 'toy' forward looking, exotic, not ubiquitous, or expected. They are aiming at 'us' or those within us that are in the market for it.
Its obvious that within the car enthusiast number, Alfa do well, witness the words usd by PH themselves in SotW, or any other forum, automotive publication. The 8C and the 4C have done waht was required - get their name back at the front, get it discussed, argued over even...because shortly we'll be seeing their 3 series rival - or the product they are banking on more than they are banking on the 4C.
In short I think they'll are/will be plenty/enough buyers who have signed up to the idea already and will work around any shortcomings (geo). because they love the brand, people who decline teutonic efficiency at every step.
A little slice of Italian red sportscar. The history is rich, rare and special. review reading non-test driving stat loving efficient and financially astute non-enthusiasts need not apply
For the record I used to collect Porsches when I was little back in the 80's I used to write to F C Ferdinand Porsche and few times he wrote back in pen and ink(?!), I collected their brochures from the local dealership, drew them and wateched them and eventually owned one.
There is room to love both, appreiate both for what they offer. te german brand famously does not offer 'emotion' in th esame way an Italian brand does...it just doesn't. Different buying demographic, and if the 4C demographic wasn't there, Fiat would not have signed off on it to be made.
In 1998, we had the "return of Alfa" with the 156 - a nice car but again, didn't do enough to smash the class.
The 4C is a fine looking thing but there is no way I would pick it over a Cayman, much less an Exige. Too much style and too little substance IMO.
I would love Alfa to produce a proper mid range saloon - low weight, proper chassis and steering, RWD, LSD etc. If they can clothe it in a great design as they have done over the years, it will be a winner.
I am just not sure they have it in them.
Dagnut said:
I didn't compare it to the Cayman expect to say the the original Cayman wasn't very well received and now is the market leader by some distance. Alfa have gone a different route and may have fallen short for UK roads with their first attempt, but it is their first attempt.
The Cayman is a superb car but I don't know why it's owners and boxsters owners feel the need to go on the offence against other cars...same way 911 owners felt the need to assault the GTR..its not imagined or prejudiced the posts are there on record.
Was the first Cayman badly received? I can't find a bad review of it, I had one and it was a fantastic piece of kit.The Cayman is a superb car but I don't know why it's owners and boxsters owners feel the need to go on the offence against other cars...same way 911 owners felt the need to assault the GTR..its not imagined or prejudiced the posts are there on record.
Dagnut said:
The Cayman is a superb car but I don't know why it's owners and boxsters owners feel the need to go on the offence against other cars...same way 911 owners felt the need to assault the GTR..its not imagined or prejudiced the posts are there on record.
No, that's not what's going on at all. We're simply discussing two cars that differ greatly that seemed to be priced the same.Oilchange said:
I doubt it. I would expect the Alfa to keep it's value whilst the Porsches plummet and but would any of those three get these reactions...
"Never have I known such universal appreciation for a car; kids wanted to sit in it, fellow drivers nodded in approval and even the female reception was positive."
To be fair though I get all of that from a 7 year old base model Elise..."Never have I known such universal appreciation for a car; kids wanted to sit in it, fellow drivers nodded in approval and even the female reception was positive."
heebeegeetee said:
Dagnut said:
The Cayman is a superb car but I don't know why it's owners and boxsters owners feel the need to go on the offence against other cars...same way 911 owners felt the need to assault the GTR..its not imagined or prejudiced the posts are there on record.
No, that's not what's going on at all. We're simply discussing two cars that differ greatly that seemed to be priced the same.Dagnut said:
heebeegeetee said:
Dagnut said:
The Cayman is a superb car but I don't know why it's owners and boxsters owners feel the need to go on the offence against other cars...same way 911 owners felt the need to assault the GTR..its not imagined or prejudiced the posts are there on record.
No, that's not what's going on at all. We're simply discussing two cars that differ greatly that seemed to be priced the same.Every petrolhead should own or drive a Porsche. But you're not a 'real' petrolhead until you've owned an Alfa....;)
And for the record a couple of journalists have heaped praise upon the 4C...Chris Harris and Jeremy Clarkson.
If everyone who was in the market for a 2 seater small coupe bought a Cayman I'd revel in buying anything that got remotley close but was not a Cayman.
As said before, being worse than a Cayman does not mean it's a rubbish car. It just means the Porsche is held in higher regard in more areas, what if those areas didn't matter so or as much to you?
Should Lotus, Alfa, Mazda, BMW, MB, Audi, etc etc just not bother making cars that compete with a Porsche product?
These journos that have ridiculed and said the 4C is rubbish... whre can I find articles?
Did any of them work for publications that vote for ECotY ?
And for the record a couple of journalists have heaped praise upon the 4C...Chris Harris and Jeremy Clarkson.
If everyone who was in the market for a 2 seater small coupe bought a Cayman I'd revel in buying anything that got remotley close but was not a Cayman.
As said before, being worse than a Cayman does not mean it's a rubbish car. It just means the Porsche is held in higher regard in more areas, what if those areas didn't matter so or as much to you?
Should Lotus, Alfa, Mazda, BMW, MB, Audi, etc etc just not bother making cars that compete with a Porsche product?
These journos that have ridiculed and said the 4C is rubbish... whre can I find articles?
Did any of them work for publications that vote for ECotY ?
Stand by your beds! here comes the Giulia...
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/spy-shots/alfa-romeo/...
June 24th for RWD saloon....
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/spy-shots/alfa-romeo/...
June 24th for RWD saloon....
Quickmoose said:
Stand by your beds! here comes the Giulia...
http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/spy-shots/alfa-romeo/...
June 24th for RWD saloon....
You never see that much love for the old 75 on here http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/spy-shots/alfa-romeo/...
June 24th for RWD saloon....
SidewaysSi said:
It needs to beat the XE and 3 Series.
I don't think it does need to beat them, it just needs to be sufficiently good to offer an interesting alternative to them. From time to time, threads crop up on here with people who are 'bored' of cars - looking through their history, you often find that they've followed a common progression through cars regarded as best in class. Sometimes buying the thing you like is a better plan than buying one that someone else has decided is 'best'.It does need to not be a bit rubbish like the Mito or completely unremarkable like the Giulietta, though.
jamies30 said:
SidewaysSi said:
It needs to beat the XE and 3 Series.
I don't think it does need to beat them, it just needs to be sufficiently good to offer an interesting alternative to them. From time to time, threads crop up on here with people who are 'bored' of cars - looking through their history, you often find that they've followed a common progression through cars regarded as best in class. Sometimes buying the thing you like is a better plan than buying one that someone else has decided is 'best'.It does need to not be a bit rubbish like the Mito or completely unremarkable like the Giulietta, though.
SidewaysSi said:
True but it does need to have something endearing about it which is more than good styling. And be properly made of course.
Again, it doesn't have to. Doesn't need to.Class average in every department plus drop dead gorgeous would win the day for me. Remember class average these days is pretty acceptable. Not many duffers out there for middle management...(same goes for the 2 seater Spirts car market)
Comfortable would be good. Compliant also.
I'm not going to get hung up on industry leading plastics and the latest lid damping mechanism.
ORD said:
Self-selection. People who would be interested in and could afford a 4C probably own or have owned a Porsche.
Quite the opposite. Like other PH favourites, the Golf R, the M3, the Cayman is the do it all car. People buying Lotus or Alfa don't want that at all.Edited by Ali_T on Monday 25th May 21:11
s m said:
You never see that much love for the old 75 on here
The 75 was wonderful...but never won a test against the ubiquitous E30 3 series. The same will happen with Giulia, and I won't care because BMW bore me to tears.Not to mention that, behind damped grab handles and soft touch plastics, they're pretty shoddily made...
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2012/05/are-ger...
Edited by Ali_T on Monday 25th May 21:17
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