Classic car bubble?
Discussion
This thread appears to discuss more of the older classics, but like the OP I have also been looking at modern classics to buy. My new ramp gives me a space in my garage, so I've been looking at one of my childhood hero cars, the 205 GTI 1.9. However, I need to be spending in the region of £5k for a relatively decent one, with some asking closer to £10k. This seems a bit high for a relatively common car, even now there are plenty about, though less and less good ones and as much as I want one, i don't fancy spending too much.
If I have to spend £5k, why not spend 7-8k and get a Focus RS, maybe 9-10k gets me into WR1, P1 scooby territory and some evo variants which are all better cars with a strong following and also unlikely to depreciate in the current environment.. and just as importantly, will be fun to drive and enjoy.
Im in it for ownership, to tick a car off my bucket list that I've always liked and appreciated so it's not necessarily an investment, though it would be nice to buy something that I wont lose money on.
Either way, the way the markets are looking, i'll need to look hard to get a good deal on something i think is worth the asking, and not be suckered in by some speculator preying on my boyhood nostalgia..
If I have to spend £5k, why not spend 7-8k and get a Focus RS, maybe 9-10k gets me into WR1, P1 scooby territory and some evo variants which are all better cars with a strong following and also unlikely to depreciate in the current environment.. and just as importantly, will be fun to drive and enjoy.
Im in it for ownership, to tick a car off my bucket list that I've always liked and appreciated so it's not necessarily an investment, though it would be nice to buy something that I wont lose money on.
Either way, the way the markets are looking, i'll need to look hard to get a good deal on something i think is worth the asking, and not be suckered in by some speculator preying on my boyhood nostalgia..
e8_pack said:
This thread appears to discuss more of the older classics, but like the OP I have also been looking at modern classics to buy. My new ramp gives me a space in my garage, so I've been looking at one of my childhood hero cars, the 205 GTI 1.9. However, I need to be spending in the region of £5k for a relatively decent one, with some asking closer to £10k. This seems a bit high for a relatively common car, even now there are plenty about, though less and less good ones and as much as I want one, i don't fancy spending too much.
If I have to spend £5k, why not spend 7-8k and get a Focus RS, maybe 9-10k gets me into WR1, P1 scooby territory and some evo variants which are all better cars with a strong following and also unlikely to depreciate in the current environment.. and just as importantly, will be fun to drive and enjoy.
Im in it for ownership, to tick a car off my bucket list that I've always liked and appreciated so it's not necessarily an investment, though it would be nice to buy something that I wont lose money on.
Either way, the way the markets are looking, i'll need to look hard to get a good deal on something i think is worth the asking, and not be suckered in by some speculator preying on my boyhood nostalgia..
Very envious of your current fleet 700bhp aiming for 850bhp 996 Turbo and a Westfield. If I have to spend £5k, why not spend 7-8k and get a Focus RS, maybe 9-10k gets me into WR1, P1 scooby territory and some evo variants which are all better cars with a strong following and also unlikely to depreciate in the current environment.. and just as importantly, will be fun to drive and enjoy.
Im in it for ownership, to tick a car off my bucket list that I've always liked and appreciated so it's not necessarily an investment, though it would be nice to buy something that I wont lose money on.
Either way, the way the markets are looking, i'll need to look hard to get a good deal on something i think is worth the asking, and not be suckered in by some speculator preying on my boyhood nostalgia..
skyrover said:
classics are far easier and cheaper to work on, ergo they are becoming more desirable.
That has to be part of it. Plus the taxation aspect. I run a 1989 car. It pretty much has every modern bit of luxury (although I specifixally chose the lower spec with none of the electronics to keep it more reliable) but it costs nothing to run, nothing really to tax or insure and I can have the pleasure of tinkering to fix the odd issue.
Late 80s and early 90s offer some brilliant cars that don't have a depreciation curve and are much cheaper to run.
To add to that, they also offer a style of driving so very different from almost everything today.
skyrover said:
classics are far easier and cheaper to work on, ergo they are becoming more desirable.
Yes and no - up to a point (where the car becomes overwhelmed by electronics) this is true, but replacement part supply becomes an issue. Try getting a diff or engine parts for a 25yr old Ferrari and you might find your investment is grounded and unusable/unsellable for months to years while you wait on parts becoming available.GreigM said:
skyrover said:
classics are far easier and cheaper to work on, ergo they are becoming more desirable.
Yes and no - up to a point (where the car becomes overwhelmed by electronics) this is true, but replacement part supply becomes an issue. Try getting a diff or engine parts for a 25yr old Ferrari and you might find your investment is grounded and unusable/unsellable for months to years while you wait on parts becoming available.
skyrover said:
GreigM said:
skyrover said:
classics are far easier and cheaper to work on, ergo they are becoming more desirable.
Yes and no - up to a point (where the car becomes overwhelmed by electronics) this is true, but replacement part supply becomes an issue. Try getting a diff or engine parts for a 25yr old Ferrari and you might find your investment is grounded and unusable/unsellable for months to years while you wait on parts becoming available.Welshbeef said:
And there goes the classique status of your Ferrari by using non OEM parts.
Does depend. I'll stick non OEM parts on my car to get me back on the road while I wait for the OEM part to be found. I've ended up with a storage unit full of OEM parts that would go back onto/into my cars at point of sale.
But then part of the problem is people like me sitting on key parts I might need. Logically there should be no shortage of parts as thousands were made on only hundreds of cars remain but most of the parts are sitting on shelves in weird places. But then that is some of the fun of classic ownership, learning who has bits squirreled away and meeting and chatting with them. It might not be efficient or practical but it is more enjoyable that talking to a nylon suited illiterate who can barely use a computer or string a sentence together but will be able to hand you that part over instantly.
DonkeyApple said:
Does depend. I'll stick non OEM parts on my car to get me back on the road while I wait for the OEM part to be found.
It's a very grey area. If you buy a part from a supplier who supplied the OEM I'd say that's OK. Tyres: I'd say any of the top brands are OK with me - OEM is impossible in many cases. Modern developments can mean that a replacement part is better in many cases. It's different on a car by car basis.DonkeyApple said:
Does depend. I'll stick non OEM parts on my car to get me back on the road while I wait for the OEM part to be found.
I've ended up with a storage unit full of OEM parts that would go back onto/into my cars at point of sale.
But then part of the problem is people like me sitting on key parts I might need. Logically there should be no shortage of parts as thousands were made on only hundreds of cars remain but most of the parts are sitting on shelves in weird places. But then that is some of the fun of classic ownership, learning who has bits squirreled away and meeting and chatting with them. It might not be efficient or practical but it is more enjoyable that talking to a nylon suited illiterate who can barely use a computer or string a sentence together but will be able to hand you that part over instantly.
That's a fair point to get it back and running while you await OEM parts on back order etc. I've ended up with a storage unit full of OEM parts that would go back onto/into my cars at point of sale.
But then part of the problem is people like me sitting on key parts I might need. Logically there should be no shortage of parts as thousands were made on only hundreds of cars remain but most of the parts are sitting on shelves in weird places. But then that is some of the fun of classic ownership, learning who has bits squirreled away and meeting and chatting with them. It might not be efficient or practical but it is more enjoyable that talking to a nylon suited illiterate who can barely use a computer or string a sentence together but will be able to hand you that part over instantly.
TA14 said:
DonkeyApple said:
Does depend. I'll stick non OEM parts on my car to get me back on the road while I wait for the OEM part to be found.
It's a very grey area. If you buy a part from a supplier who supplied the OEM I'd say that's OK. Tyres: I'd say any of the top brands are OK with me - OEM is impossible in many cases. Modern developments can mean that a replacement part is better in many cases. It's different on a car by car basis.Would you do the same to be sub £20k example TVR is imagine most if not all would.
Tyres modern clearly miles better in every way - But .... If buying a rare big money classic OEM will only do
TA14 said:
DonkeyApple said:
Does depend. I'll stick non OEM parts on my car to get me back on the road while I wait for the OEM part to be found.
It's a very grey area. If you buy a part from a supplier who supplied the OEM I'd say that's OK. Tyres: I'd say any of the top brands are OK with me - OEM is impossible in many cases. Modern developments can mean that a replacement part is better in many cases. It's different on a car by car basis.Even to the point that when no OEM parts are available it boils down to which 'artisan' made the part. When I had something made for a car a couple of years ago, as it was non standard, I went out of my way to use the most renowned classic GP panel beater to make it so that I had paperwork that would be acceptable to any future owner of my car.
Welshbeef said:
The other thing is What's the value of the car? If it's big money you'd leave it with a specialist only IE would you put a get me back on the road non OEM part on a Ferrari 285 GTB4 cam? I suspect not.
Would you do the same to be sub £20k example TVR is imagine most if not all would.
Tyres modern clearly miles better in every way - But .... If buying a rare big money classic OEM will only do
I don't think it works like that at all. For your F example you'd need to know who made the F cam, was it any good? What are the alternatives? It's a car by car and part by part process.Would you do the same to be sub £20k example TVR is imagine most if not all would.
Tyres modern clearly miles better in every way - But .... If buying a rare big money classic OEM will only do
For the TVR, if a part is available from TVR then that's usually the best place to go for price and service. Others offer alternatives for various reasons like carbon plenums, stiffer suspension etc. Again the effect of non OEM parts will vary car to car and part to part.
You may want OEM tyres on a big money classic but what do you do if that tyre size hasn't been made by any of the main tyre manufacturers for thirty years and your choice is Wanli or Sunshine?
TA14 said:
Welshbeef said:
The other thing is What's the value of the car? If it's big money you'd leave it with a specialist only IE would you put a get me back on the road non OEM part on a Ferrari 285 GTB4 cam? I suspect not.
Would you do the same to be sub £20k example TVR is imagine most if not all would.
Tyres modern clearly miles better in every way - But .... If buying a rare big money classic OEM will only do
I don't think it works like that at all. For your F example you'd need to know who made the F cam, was it any good? What are the alternatives? It's a car by car and part by part process.Would you do the same to be sub £20k example TVR is imagine most if not all would.
Tyres modern clearly miles better in every way - But .... If buying a rare big money classic OEM will only do
For the TVR, if a part is available from TVR then that's usually the best place to go for price and service. Others offer alternatives for various reasons like carbon plenums, stiffer suspension etc. Again the effect of non OEM parts will vary car to car and part to part.
You may want OEM tyres on a big money classic but what do you do if that tyre size hasn't been made by any of the main tyre manufacturers for thirty years and your choice is Wanli or Sunshine?
With TVRs, I agree with what you are saying but it is only in the last few years that we've started to see the real 'classic' rules beginning to be applied on at least one model.
If you look at the Griff, which the general market considered to be the brands poster car in classic terms, then in the last couple of years a new set of buyers have appeared who are looking for unmodified, original cars. It doesn't atter that we know that certain mods are highly kosher and vastly improve the base product, the 'collector' is appearing.
A key aspect as to just how far this effect goes is what records the company kept in each car. If you look at the worst marques for fenickity originality they tend to be the ones where a central DB exists for each car.
Back with TVR we can also already see the impact of mods done by 'accepted' third parties versus those done maybe better but without the label of reassurance to justify it.
And don't even get me started on matching numbers!!! That farce has even hit the classic Range Rover market now. I'm restoring one of the original 400 '81 In Vogues and the gearbox needs a rebuild but I have a brand new OEM one that it's easier to swap over but now that Suffix As and In Vogues are being bought by collectors I've been asked by the chap who will be selling it for me to ensure matching numbers as it is something his clients insist on!
If you look under the bonnet of a fast road/race prep'd 60's Ferrari though, you will see a lot of non OEM parts such as aeroquip hoses and shiny anodised Goodrich fittings.
The only people who will scorn the fitment of such parts are the concours enthusiasts (with their replica period decals!)
The only people who will scorn the fitment of such parts are the concours enthusiasts (with their replica period decals!)
pablo said:
If you look under the bonnet of a fast road/race prep'd 60's Ferrari though, you will see a lot of non OEM parts such as aeroquip hoses and shiny anodised Goodrich fittings.
The only people who will scorn the fitment of such parts are the concours enthusiasts (with their replica period decals!)
But FIA papers do offer a lot of mitigation plus, if all the work was done by an 'accepted' Ferrari shop it makes a big difference to it being done by Barry down the arches, even if Barry's work is better. The only people who will scorn the fitment of such parts are the concours enthusiasts (with their replica period decals!)
pablo said:
If you look under the bonnet of a fast road/race prep'd 60's Ferrari though, you will see a lot of non OEM parts such as aeroquip hoses and shiny anodised Goodrich fittings.
The only people who will scorn the fitment of such parts are the concours enthusiasts (with their replica period decals!)
But from a Classiche Certification perspective,which no question adds notable value over a like for like car without, would require OEM only. The only people who will scorn the fitment of such parts are the concours enthusiasts (with their replica period decals!)
As we're talking about classic car bubble then those with all the ticks in boxes (be they better or worse for it is irrelevant) will be the safest place to put the £ and most likely to inflate to the highest prices.
Welshbeef said:
Very envious of your current fleet 700bhp aiming for 850bhp 996 Turbo and a Westfield.
They are both good at what they do, the westy will be pushing 300 when I get the new head fitted. However, you can't beat a trusty French tintop for a good blast down some back roads. You still got the 106? I got rid of my ax, just need a suitable replacement!Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff