RE: Toyota GT86 facelift details
Discussion
Conscript said:
Oh, and southern GT86 owner checking in. The theory actually makes some sense, the roads around here are pretty crowded most of the time, so the opportunities for enjoying a drivers car are probably more limited than someone who has access to the open roads of the north 
Well I live in north Dorset surrounding by some of the best driving roads in the southern half of the UK and even in this fairly rural area one doesn't often get much of a chance to rag a car. I have a car with 1120 Kg and over 220 Bhp in the form of my 944 S2 race car. When it was road legal for a year I drove it on some of these roads and to be honest it was already well in the excess of speed available department where cars start to get frustrating. My DD is a 20+ year old diesel Range Rover, I realised recently that my commute was a bit too aggressive as I was regularly pulling 3 or 4 overtakes each way each day (just leave 5 mins earlier and chill out). Cars like the 2.0 MX5 we had are more than sufficient in terms of power for road driving so I wonder who on earth all these people are who keep saying such cars need to have 300 Bhp. I think the sad reality is that the very reason why cars like this will always sell so badly is just that so few drivers have anything like the ability level and awareness/feel to ever enjoy them.Conscript said:
Tuvra said:
kambites said:
Tuvra said:
Me neither, getting blown into the weeds by an X5 is embarrassing in a sports car 
Having never raced anyone on the road, I don't really find this a problem. 
Sorry, well and trully in the "needs more power" camp
Oh, and southern GT86 owner checking in. The theory actually makes some sense, the roads around here are pretty crowded most of the time, so the opportunities for enjoying a drivers car are probably more limited than someone who has access to the open roads of the north
It may suit some, however, I think I am probably part of the majority crowd who think its not powerful enough. I cannot see why they are unwilling to sell a beefed up version? Leave the low powered lightweight car alone and just launch a beefed up version to sit above it in the range.
I think Subaru should grab the bull by the horns and launch an STI version, 300bhp, fatter tyres, nicer looking seats (Recaro's found in the MKII Focus RS), lose the back seats, make it more aggressive and aim to get it under £30k
Something like this with slightly dished wheels could hit the spot:
NJH said:
Well I live in north Dorset surrounding by some of the best driving roads in the southern half of the UK and even in this fairly rural area one doesn't often get much of a chance to rag a car. I have a car with 1120 Kg and over 220 Bhp in the form of my 944 S2 race car. When it was road legal for a year I drove it on some of these roads and to be honest it was already well in the excess of speed available department where cars start to get frustrating. My DD is a 20+ year old diesel Range Rover, I realised recently that my commute was a bit too aggressive as I was regularly pulling 3 or 4 overtakes each way each day (just leave 5 mins earlier and chill out). Cars like the 2.0 MX5 we had are more than sufficient in terms of power for road driving so I wonder who on earth all these people are who keep saying such cars need to have 300 Bhp. I think the sad reality is that the very reason why cars like this will always sell so badly is just that so few drivers have anything like the ability level and awareness/feel to ever enjoy them.
Completely agree. I am baffled by the "more power, more power" brigade.My wife has a Yaris T-Sport with circa 100hp, weighs a ton and very light BBS wheels. It is alarming how quickly it can flow along a B-road once moving.
Also, saying in 198?, another car had the same power or acceleration is daft as power/performance can't continue exponentionally. Otherwise, we will have a 1-second production 0-62 car. That'll be fun won't it?!
To those who say add power, wider body, wheels etc. for £30K. First, probably not possible to OEM standards. Second, that's not the market this is aimed at.
If you do that, you are getting close to used Porsche territory. And in this case, the used v new will be relevant. This is supposed to appeal to enthusiasts.
Take the modded one below at £33K. Would you really buy that over a 911 997 or Cayman?
It has to be around £20K, so you feel you are getting a new, ground-up developed sports car in a different price (and probably lower performance) bracket to say, a Porsche.
They have got this car right. It should be in the top handful of PHs cars. That it isn't says much about us as a group.
is1 said:
To those who say add power, wider body, wheels etc. for £30K. First, probably not possible to OEM standards. Second, that's not the market this is aimed at.
If you do that, you are getting close to used Porsche territory. And in this case, the used v new will be relevant. This is supposed to appeal to enthusiasts.
Take the modded one below at £33K. Would you really buy that over a 911 997 or Cayman?
It has to be around £20K, so you feel you are getting a new, ground-up developed sports car in a different price (and probably lower performance) bracket to say, a Porsche.
They have got this car right. It should be in the top handful of PHs cars. That it isn't says much about us as a group.
Why is it not possible? Whats the difference between Ford/Audi/BMW/Mercedes etc making fast versions i.e. RS/M/AMG models?If you do that, you are getting close to used Porsche territory. And in this case, the used v new will be relevant. This is supposed to appeal to enthusiasts.
Take the modded one below at £33K. Would you really buy that over a 911 997 or Cayman?
It has to be around £20K, so you feel you are getting a new, ground-up developed sports car in a different price (and probably lower performance) bracket to say, a Porsche.
They have got this car right. It should be in the top handful of PHs cars. That it isn't says much about us as a group.
Close to used Porsche territory? Missing the point slightly? Its like saying no one will buy a GT86 new at £23k because that would buy you a used Exige, who would choose a GT86 over an Exige? Its also like saying why would you buy a new Mustang when you can have a second hand Porsche for less, when the facts seem to show that Ford will have huge success with the Mustang in the UK at £30k.
Your right though, I wouldn't pay £33k for the modded GT86 in this post, purely because its modded, I would however seriously consider one with similar spec (with a toned down interior) for £30k or so from the manufacturer.
I think a halo model with 300bhp or so would be a big sales success.
I know it's a small thing but the seating position of the 86 is incredible. In that it's totally dead straight with the pedals absolutely, perfectly in line. After whole generations of German cars with awful offset wheels and pedals it's a revelation. In it's own odd way, it's a very comfy car. Also, it IS faster than the numbers suggest.
Tuvra said:
Hardly drag racing, I couldn't get it off my tail along sweeping country roads, we then went round a roundabout joining a dual carriageway, at which point the Diesel X5 quickly dispatched of the red lining GT86.
It may suit some, however, I think I am probably part of the majority crowd who think its not powerful enough. I cannot see why they are unwilling to sell a beefed up version? Leave the low powered lightweight car alone and just launch a beefed up version to sit above it in the range.
How much more powerful would you have it though? It may suit some, however, I think I am probably part of the majority crowd who think its not powerful enough. I cannot see why they are unwilling to sell a beefed up version? Leave the low powered lightweight car alone and just launch a beefed up version to sit above it in the range.
You can get a mid-range-ish 30d diesel X5 with a great visibility, an autobox and 4WD which does 0-60 in 6.6 seconds. No effort or skill required from the driver to achieve those figures either, just boot it.
So I reckon a GT86 would have to be beefed up a heck of a lot to match that, and I imagine it would spoil the character of the car in doing so. Still going to be a fair bit slower than an X5 40d too.
W124 said:
I know it's a small thing but the seating position of the 86 is incredible. In that it's totally dead straight with the pedals absolutely, perfectly in line. After whole generations of German cars with awful offset wheels and pedals it's a revelation. In it's own odd way, it's a very comfy car. Also, it IS faster than the numbers suggest.
I think the driving position is very underrated in the era of tall, heavy, MPV-like hatches. In a GT86 you'll actually feel like you are sitting in a sports car because, well, you are! Tuvra said:
is1 said:
To those who say add power, wider body, wheels etc. for £30K. First, probably not possible to OEM standards. Second, that's not the market this is aimed at.
If you do that, you are getting close to used Porsche territory. And in this case, the used v new will be relevant. This is supposed to appeal to enthusiasts.
Take the modded one below at £33K. Would you really buy that over a 911 997 or Cayman?
It has to be around £20K, so you feel you are getting a new, ground-up developed sports car in a different price (and probably lower performance) bracket to say, a Porsche.
They have got this car right. It should be in the top handful of PHs cars. That it isn't says much about us as a group.
Why is it not possible? Whats the difference between Ford/Audi/BMW/Mercedes etc making fast versions i.e. RS/M/AMG models?If you do that, you are getting close to used Porsche territory. And in this case, the used v new will be relevant. This is supposed to appeal to enthusiasts.
Take the modded one below at £33K. Would you really buy that over a 911 997 or Cayman?
It has to be around £20K, so you feel you are getting a new, ground-up developed sports car in a different price (and probably lower performance) bracket to say, a Porsche.
They have got this car right. It should be in the top handful of PHs cars. That it isn't says much about us as a group.
Close to used Porsche territory? Missing the point slightly? Its like saying no one will buy a GT86 new at £23k because that would buy you a used Exige, who would choose a GT86 over an Exige? Its also like saying why would you buy a new Mustang when you can have a second hand Porsche for less, when the facts seem to show that Ford will have huge success with the Mustang in the UK at £30k.
Your right though, I wouldn't pay £33k for the modded GT86 in this post, purely because its modded, I would however seriously consider one with similar spec (with a toned down interior) for £30k or so from the manufacturer.
I think a halo model with 300bhp or so would be a big sales success.
When the road-legal Ecoboost Formula Ford was announced it was applauded and various comments of "sell it at £23k, it'll sell loads!" Completely ignoring the fact that a turnkey car is about £48k before any road-legal bits and bobs are added, or type approval.
It seems many people don't have a clue about true costs and what a market will support. Want more power? Buy a 370Z. "But it's too heavy!" Want it lighter? "Now it's too expensive!"
I don't know the details, but would a 300 brake GT86 meet Toyota's chassis targets, in terms of stiffness and whatnot? If not, weight would probably go up to deal with the extra torque and all of a sudden it's burst its design brief. Does a charged engine still have enough clearance between engine and bonnet for pedestrian safety for type approval? If not, the front end needs a bit of a redesign, altering its looks. I believe one of the reasons for using a boxer layout was to give a low bonnet line.
I don't know about a used Exige, but your £30k price is putting it perilously close to a new Lotus Elise (about £34k), and given it was aimed at the 'lightweight, good handling' market it would lose on those objective points. It might win on practicality (if people really need a 2+2), but that's it.
If you want a 280bhp GT86 for £30k, you can get that now - buy a 200bhp one and take it along to Litchfield - sorted. If you want a 300ish bhp RWD coupe for £30k from the manufacturer, go and buy a 370Z; if not that, then you're out of luck.
ETA: re "Ford/Audi/BMW/Mercedes etc making fast versions i.e. RS/M/AMG models", the difference is about forty thousand pounds and five hundred kilograms.
Surely this car, in the same way as an MX5 or an Else is about the connection with driving not just accelerating. Driving an X5 quickly from the lights or even through some bends is about as detached from the art of driving as it's possible to get...by the time you've approached it's limits it's too late, there is no finesse in it's controls, it's feel or the way you feel. I'm using the X5 as an example, but by greater or lesser degrees you could add any number of heavyweight big-output vehicles.
Less weight, lower centre of gravity, thought applied to wheel and tyre sizes, seating position, normally aspirated engine. Getting your thrills at legal limits and learning something about control and physics at the same time.
By all means produce a factory halo car to grab some headlines and satisfy a few, but the brief and the point of this car has been realised.
Less weight, lower centre of gravity, thought applied to wheel and tyre sizes, seating position, normally aspirated engine. Getting your thrills at legal limits and learning something about control and physics at the same time.
By all means produce a factory halo car to grab some headlines and satisfy a few, but the brief and the point of this car has been realised.
Edited by Quickmoose on Wednesday 13th May 10:46
I'm picking up a 24hr demo this PM as a possible replacement for my Octavia VRS.
I've always liked the look of them but the not enough power comment has been worrying although it's about the same as my VRS the delivery will be different.
The dealer didn't even have one in when I visited before the BH. And they agreed to a 24hr drive without question so they seem keen to sell them, I wanted 24hrs to take the kids to school and see how practical it was. It won't be the main family car but needs to take 1 +2 small kids on a regular basis, do the shopping etc.
I'll report back.
I've always liked the look of them but the not enough power comment has been worrying although it's about the same as my VRS the delivery will be different.
The dealer didn't even have one in when I visited before the BH. And they agreed to a 24hr drive without question so they seem keen to sell them, I wanted 24hrs to take the kids to school and see how practical it was. It won't be the main family car but needs to take 1 +2 small kids on a regular basis, do the shopping etc.
I'll report back.
As has been said, many times - there are plenty of powerful cars out there, some at a similar or lower price point.
I suspect Toyota and Subaru knew this.
The out-and-out sports car is covered by several including Porsche and Lotus.
High-mid end 'quality' performance cars from our German friends.
Heavy and competent though (comparatively) expensive to buy and run sports coupés like 370Z, GTR, etc.
Any number of hot hatches from everyone.
I'm sure we could name many others...
They saw or perceived a gap in the market, a cheap(ish) RWD sports coupé that's fun to drive.
Happily, it's easily modified too with a growing supply of go-faster goodies and a wealth of experience from top tuners like Fensport, Abbey Motorsport and Litchfield.
Why on earth would they pander to the few vocal naysayers and doom-mongers who wouldn't buy a new one anyway?
I suspect Toyota and Subaru knew this.
The out-and-out sports car is covered by several including Porsche and Lotus.
High-mid end 'quality' performance cars from our German friends.
Heavy and competent though (comparatively) expensive to buy and run sports coupés like 370Z, GTR, etc.
Any number of hot hatches from everyone.
I'm sure we could name many others...
They saw or perceived a gap in the market, a cheap(ish) RWD sports coupé that's fun to drive.
Happily, it's easily modified too with a growing supply of go-faster goodies and a wealth of experience from top tuners like Fensport, Abbey Motorsport and Litchfield.
Why on earth would they pander to the few vocal naysayers and doom-mongers who wouldn't buy a new one anyway?
Tuvra said:
Hardly drag racing, I couldn't get it off my tail along sweeping country roads,
most sports cars won't be able to shake any number of powerful cars these days. But, the suv will be relying on grunt in the straight bits, ESP in the curvy bits and it won't be anything like as much fun. Most importantly it wont keep up through tighter turns, but instead just rely on short straights to punch forward. X5s are great cars, but not focused on fun....LordGrover said:
As has been said, many times - there are plenty of powerful cars out there, some at a similar or lower price point.
I suspect Toyota and Subaru knew this.
The out-and-out sports car is covered by several including Porsche and Lotus.
High-mid end 'quality' performance cars from our German friends.
Heavy and competent though (comparatively) expensive to buy and run 370Z, GTR, etc.
Any number of hot hatches from everyone.
I'm sure we could name many others...
They saw or perceived a gap in the market, a cheap(ish) RWD sports coupé that's fun to drive.
Happily, it's easily modified too with a growing supply of go-faster goodies and a wealth of experience from top tuners like Fensport, Abbey Motorsport and Litchfield.
Why on earth would they pander to the few vocal naysayers and doom-mongers who wouldn't buy a new one anyway?
well put, it fills a niche that's not for everyone. why it's a niche...I suspect Toyota and Subaru knew this.
The out-and-out sports car is covered by several including Porsche and Lotus.
High-mid end 'quality' performance cars from our German friends.
Heavy and competent though (comparatively) expensive to buy and run 370Z, GTR, etc.
Any number of hot hatches from everyone.
I'm sure we could name many others...
They saw or perceived a gap in the market, a cheap(ish) RWD sports coupé that's fun to drive.
Happily, it's easily modified too with a growing supply of go-faster goodies and a wealth of experience from top tuners like Fensport, Abbey Motorsport and Litchfield.
Why on earth would they pander to the few vocal naysayers and doom-mongers who wouldn't buy a new one anyway?
The oft-quoted 350/370 is a completely different car and the two cars wouldn't be mentioned together by anyone who had actually driven both.
Quickmoose said:
alot of truth in that.
The 300BHP+ brigade just see it as a number that needs passing as most of the hot hatches are around there.
Straight line thrills a plenty I guess.
We are all different though and straight line thrills is what has always floated my boat personally whereas most love corners and I know if I drove a GT86 as soon as I put my foot down on a straight I would be left bitterly disappointed especially if a warm diesel had just blitzed me. The 300BHP+ brigade just see it as a number that needs passing as most of the hot hatches are around there.
Straight line thrills a plenty I guess.
I accept nowadays it is a bit silly that hot hatches have 300 bhp in some ways and anything with power is a doddle to use, so I do see the point of the GT86 where you have to put lots of effort in to get it to go quickly but lots enjoy doing that, at least there are cars that suit different tastes and that is a good thing.
I've had mine for over 2 years and love it.
It's cheap to run, fun to drive and almost practical.
I can't think of any other car's designed from the ground up as a sports car that I could fit my 23" 29er mountain bike in. I don't really get all the comments about getting blown away by diesels etc. Who cares? What have you got to prove against the diesel driver? What does it matter if his car is faster?
I drove my friend's 335d and although it was impressively quick, I'd never change my car for one.
It's cheap to run, fun to drive and almost practical.
I can't think of any other car's designed from the ground up as a sports car that I could fit my 23" 29er mountain bike in. I don't really get all the comments about getting blown away by diesels etc. Who cares? What have you got to prove against the diesel driver? What does it matter if his car is faster?
I drove my friend's 335d and although it was impressively quick, I'd never change my car for one.
is1 said:
Completely agree. I am baffled by the "more power, more power" brigade.
My wife has a Yaris T-Sport with circa 100hp, weighs a ton and very light BBS wheels. It is alarming how quickly it can flow along a B-road once moving.
Also, saying in 198?, another car had the same power or acceleration is daft as power/performance can't continue exponentionally. Otherwise, we will have a 1-second production 0-62 car. That'll be fun won't it?!
To those who say add power, wider body, wheels etc. for £30K. First, probably not possible to OEM standards. Second, that's not the market this is aimed at.
If you do that, you are getting close to used Porsche territory. And in this case, the used v new will be relevant. This is supposed to appeal to enthusiasts.
Take the modded one below at £33K. Would you really buy that over a 911 997 or Cayman?
It has to be around £20K, so you feel you are getting a new, ground-up developed sports car in a different price (and probably lower performance) bracket to say, a Porsche.
They have got this car right. It should be in the top handful of PHs cars. That it isn't says much about us as a group.
I agree that any warm supermini will do bannable speeds along a typical B road, so why buy a faster car unless it's a track car? With slower cars there's less fear, and more fun.My wife has a Yaris T-Sport with circa 100hp, weighs a ton and very light BBS wheels. It is alarming how quickly it can flow along a B-road once moving.
Also, saying in 198?, another car had the same power or acceleration is daft as power/performance can't continue exponentionally. Otherwise, we will have a 1-second production 0-62 car. That'll be fun won't it?!
To those who say add power, wider body, wheels etc. for £30K. First, probably not possible to OEM standards. Second, that's not the market this is aimed at.
If you do that, you are getting close to used Porsche territory. And in this case, the used v new will be relevant. This is supposed to appeal to enthusiasts.
Take the modded one below at £33K. Would you really buy that over a 911 997 or Cayman?
It has to be around £20K, so you feel you are getting a new, ground-up developed sports car in a different price (and probably lower performance) bracket to say, a Porsche.
They have got this car right. It should be in the top handful of PHs cars. That it isn't says much about us as a group.
Let us all buy a 1.6 MX-5, then fit it with 145 tyres and NOS. Who's with me?!
I'm actually considering getting rid of my 8yr old Civic diesel for a new or new ish 86, yet to test drive one but that's the next step.
My reasons being I have a country road commute, have to collect kids from nursery, don't have huge funds available (a 911 probably would be the choice then), need something I can use for business trips to the other end of the country if necessary and would like something with more response and better driver feedback without sacrificing too much in the pursuit of that. It'll still get ~40mpg on the motorway, carry shopping and 2+2 (not something an MX5 or elise can do) and ticks the driving satisfaction other comparable cars don't. And it won't break down or need servicing like a classic car does.
I don't need 300bhp. It'd be nice but I don't need it, especially if it means sacrificing running costs significantly or practicality. I currently find 140bhp in a 1600kg hatchback ok for overtakes, a bit more would be better, too much and I know it'd tempt me to start doing silly overtakes. If someone has more power than me and can pull away from the lights then good on them but its not a huge priority on a commute. Something I can enjoy taking the long way home in when the mood takes me, rather than being stuck 'in the wrong car' for practical reasons.
I only have 2 gripes:
- even the oldest car is only about 3 so they're still pricey, and I'm not normally one for new cars - not the cars fault but a put off for me.
- would a mild hybrid one not be a good thing? something to give a 20-30bhp shove occasionally if necessary in the same vein as the Honda CRZ but possibly with an even more limited duration to save battery space and weight? It would lower tax etc as a bonus which I know is a big factor for anyone looking at a company car. May not be possible but don't ask you don't get.
My reasons being I have a country road commute, have to collect kids from nursery, don't have huge funds available (a 911 probably would be the choice then), need something I can use for business trips to the other end of the country if necessary and would like something with more response and better driver feedback without sacrificing too much in the pursuit of that. It'll still get ~40mpg on the motorway, carry shopping and 2+2 (not something an MX5 or elise can do) and ticks the driving satisfaction other comparable cars don't. And it won't break down or need servicing like a classic car does.
I don't need 300bhp. It'd be nice but I don't need it, especially if it means sacrificing running costs significantly or practicality. I currently find 140bhp in a 1600kg hatchback ok for overtakes, a bit more would be better, too much and I know it'd tempt me to start doing silly overtakes. If someone has more power than me and can pull away from the lights then good on them but its not a huge priority on a commute. Something I can enjoy taking the long way home in when the mood takes me, rather than being stuck 'in the wrong car' for practical reasons.
I only have 2 gripes:
- even the oldest car is only about 3 so they're still pricey, and I'm not normally one for new cars - not the cars fault but a put off for me.
- would a mild hybrid one not be a good thing? something to give a 20-30bhp shove occasionally if necessary in the same vein as the Honda CRZ but possibly with an even more limited duration to save battery space and weight? It would lower tax etc as a bonus which I know is a big factor for anyone looking at a company car. May not be possible but don't ask you don't get.
cerb4.5lee said:
We are all different though and straight line thrills is what has always floated my boat personally whereas most love corners and I know if I drove a GT86 as soon as I put my foot down on a straight I would be left bitterly disappointed especially if a warm diesel had just blitzed me.
I accept nowadays it is a bit silly that hot hatches have 300 bhp in some ways and anything with power is a doddle to use, so I do see the point of the GT86 where you have to put lots of effort in to get it to go quickly but lots enjoy doing that, at least there are cars that suit different tastes and that is a good thing.
Totally agree, which takes me back to my original point, why haven't Toyota or Subaru offered both? Like Porsche do with the 911 Turbo/GT3/GT3RS, lightweight and powerful.I accept nowadays it is a bit silly that hot hatches have 300 bhp in some ways and anything with power is a doddle to use, so I do see the point of the GT86 where you have to put lots of effort in to get it to go quickly but lots enjoy doing that, at least there are cars that suit different tastes and that is a good thing.
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