Engines - the legendary one of each type?
Discussion
Guvernator said:
V8 - Lots of contention here, some people prefer yank V8's (and why wouldn't you) and others prefer Europeans. My personal favourites have to be the S65 as found in the M3, lovely lovely engine in a nice car. The second is the 2UR as found on the Lexus RC. Some people prefer lazy V8's which certainly have their place but I prefer ones that sing and these two certainly do. Honourable mention must go to the 6.3 litre unit found in AMG Merc's of various description and I'm also very curious to see what the V8 in the new Mustang will be like.
Agree a V8 is a hard engine to sum up, I loved the AJPV8 for its noise and its angry nature but it was made from toilet roll and cotton wool, I preferred the 4.8 V8 engine in my X5 to the S65 V8 in the M3 though which touches on the point you mention about whether you prefer yank type V8`s. I love the N/A V8 AMG engines a hell of a lot too.
I6 = Jag XK
Near 50 years powering Jags in its different iterations... including both road and race cars.
The noise
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igdiXEMuMIE
Near 50 years powering Jags in its different iterations... including both road and race cars.
The noise
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igdiXEMuMIE
Guvernator said:
This thread is very interesting, I've been thinking about getting a second car and after thinking about what it is about a car that makes me tick, I've realised the engine is the most important part for me so it's nice to see a list of what people consider to be some of the best. With that in mind here is a sum up of the popular choices from this thread with a slight bias towards some of my favourites and a summary of cars which can be bought that feature them.
I have tried to keep the options to realistic cars that the majority of PH'ers might actually be able to afford rather than pie in the sky exotica.
I4 - Honda engines as found in the S2000 and various Type R's seems to be the favourite by far and I'd have to agree. If you can't appreciate a little screaming I4 that revs to over 8000rpm but still has an outstanding reliability record then I'm not sure you belong on PH. The S2000 especially is definitely a strong contender for a possible future car purchase
Flat 4 - looks like a Subaru is getting the most votes and again I'd have to agree although I've already had one of those so not sure I'd get another.
V5 - Honourable mentions to both Volvo and Ford but I think Audi have this sown up. If you like your cars of the classic persuasion then the Audi Quattro has to be the one, if you prefer newer then the 5pot unit found in the RS3 or TTRS is an absolute gem. It's a shame they haven't used it in much else.
V6 - Seems like the most popular answer is the Alfa busso which is one of my favourites too. Just a shame it can't be had in anything RWD. The 156, 147, GT and GTV are all nice cars but the engine is by far the best bit and the rest of the car doesn't really live up to it IMO (sorry Alfa fans)
Flat 6 - Porsche seem the favourite but their are two problems, older Porsches seem to have gone into the stratosphere price wise and anything affordable from the 996/997 era has the dreaded engine issues. A bad blemish on Porsche's usually impeccable engineering pedigree IMO.
I6 - RB26 in the Skyline, 2JZ in the Supra and the BMW straight sixes seem to be highly regarded. I've done the Skyline thing and can confirm the RB26 is absolutely awesome, still debating whether or not to go and revisit. The 2JZ is lovely and probably a bit more stronger\reliable but I just prefer the RB as it revs better\higher. I've also done the BMW straight six thing although an E46 M3 is still quite tempting to revisit too. I'll also mention the I6 in found in TVR's, a fantastic race engine unfortunately let down by questionable reliability. They just didn't have the budget to test and finish it properly but hats off to the boys from Blackpool for giving it a damn good go and producing on of the most charismatic 6 cylinder engines available in any sportscar.
V8 - Lots of contention here, some people prefer yank V8's (and why wouldn't you) and others prefer Europeans. My personal favourites have to be the S65 as found in the M3, lovely lovely engine in a nice car. The second is the 2UR as found on the Lexus RC. Some people prefer lazy V8's which certainly have their place but I prefer ones that sing and these two certainly do. Honourable mention must go to the 6.3 litre unit found in AMG Merc's of various description and I'm also very curious to see what the V8 in the new Mustang will be like.
V10 - Much as I love the V10's in the LFA and Carrera GT, in fact I'd rate both as two of the best engines ever made, realisticlly they aren't going to be sitting on my drive any time soon so for affordable V10's it's got to be the units in the BMW M5\M6. Again a cracking engine which was misunderstood by many, it was a race engine for the road but people complained it didn't have enough torque so has been replaced by an utterly soulless twin turbo unit, be careful what you wish for and all that
V12 - Again seeing as a Mclaren F1 or an Enzo is off a bit out of reach, it's gotta be the V12 in one of the "cheaper" Ferrari's, perhaps the 456. Unfortunately these also seem to be climbing their way into the stratosphere price-wise too. Alternative are a DB7 but not too sure on how cost effective running an old Aston would be. If your budget doesn't quite stretch to any of those then the cheapest way into V12 ownership seems to be of the Mercedes CL\SL600 or the BMW 750\850i route. These V12's are more wafters then screamers though which may suit some. I do sometimes have a hankering for an 850csi but rare and hen's teeth feature into the equation.
Rotary - Honourable mention must also go to crazy rotary wankle (great name) as found in various Mazda's. Lightweight, compact and loves to rev and in 13b guise attached to probably one of the best looking cars to come out of Japan in the form of the RX-7. HOWEVER it does love a drink of both fuel AND oil. Add in the somewhat questionable reliability and rebuild issues (a matter of when not if) and yet despite all this, I am still strangely drawn to this car\engine combo, am I nuts?
Some nice choices.I have tried to keep the options to realistic cars that the majority of PH'ers might actually be able to afford rather than pie in the sky exotica.
I4 - Honda engines as found in the S2000 and various Type R's seems to be the favourite by far and I'd have to agree. If you can't appreciate a little screaming I4 that revs to over 8000rpm but still has an outstanding reliability record then I'm not sure you belong on PH. The S2000 especially is definitely a strong contender for a possible future car purchase
Flat 4 - looks like a Subaru is getting the most votes and again I'd have to agree although I've already had one of those so not sure I'd get another.
V5 - Honourable mentions to both Volvo and Ford but I think Audi have this sown up. If you like your cars of the classic persuasion then the Audi Quattro has to be the one, if you prefer newer then the 5pot unit found in the RS3 or TTRS is an absolute gem. It's a shame they haven't used it in much else.
V6 - Seems like the most popular answer is the Alfa busso which is one of my favourites too. Just a shame it can't be had in anything RWD. The 156, 147, GT and GTV are all nice cars but the engine is by far the best bit and the rest of the car doesn't really live up to it IMO (sorry Alfa fans)
Flat 6 - Porsche seem the favourite but their are two problems, older Porsches seem to have gone into the stratosphere price wise and anything affordable from the 996/997 era has the dreaded engine issues. A bad blemish on Porsche's usually impeccable engineering pedigree IMO.
I6 - RB26 in the Skyline, 2JZ in the Supra and the BMW straight sixes seem to be highly regarded. I've done the Skyline thing and can confirm the RB26 is absolutely awesome, still debating whether or not to go and revisit. The 2JZ is lovely and probably a bit more stronger\reliable but I just prefer the RB as it revs better\higher. I've also done the BMW straight six thing although an E46 M3 is still quite tempting to revisit too. I'll also mention the I6 in found in TVR's, a fantastic race engine unfortunately let down by questionable reliability. They just didn't have the budget to test and finish it properly but hats off to the boys from Blackpool for giving it a damn good go and producing on of the most charismatic 6 cylinder engines available in any sportscar.
V8 - Lots of contention here, some people prefer yank V8's (and why wouldn't you) and others prefer Europeans. My personal favourites have to be the S65 as found in the M3, lovely lovely engine in a nice car. The second is the 2UR as found on the Lexus RC. Some people prefer lazy V8's which certainly have their place but I prefer ones that sing and these two certainly do. Honourable mention must go to the 6.3 litre unit found in AMG Merc's of various description and I'm also very curious to see what the V8 in the new Mustang will be like.
V10 - Much as I love the V10's in the LFA and Carrera GT, in fact I'd rate both as two of the best engines ever made, realisticlly they aren't going to be sitting on my drive any time soon so for affordable V10's it's got to be the units in the BMW M5\M6. Again a cracking engine which was misunderstood by many, it was a race engine for the road but people complained it didn't have enough torque so has been replaced by an utterly soulless twin turbo unit, be careful what you wish for and all that
V12 - Again seeing as a Mclaren F1 or an Enzo is off a bit out of reach, it's gotta be the V12 in one of the "cheaper" Ferrari's, perhaps the 456. Unfortunately these also seem to be climbing their way into the stratosphere price-wise too. Alternative are a DB7 but not too sure on how cost effective running an old Aston would be. If your budget doesn't quite stretch to any of those then the cheapest way into V12 ownership seems to be of the Mercedes CL\SL600 or the BMW 750\850i route. These V12's are more wafters then screamers though which may suit some. I do sometimes have a hankering for an 850csi but rare and hen's teeth feature into the equation.
Rotary - Honourable mention must also go to crazy rotary wankle (great name) as found in various Mazda's. Lightweight, compact and loves to rev and in 13b guise attached to probably one of the best looking cars to come out of Japan in the form of the RX-7. HOWEVER it does love a drink of both fuel AND oil. Add in the somewhat questionable reliability and rebuild issues (a matter of when not if) and yet despite all this, I am still strangely drawn to this car\engine combo, am I nuts?
The Busso V6 can be enjoyed in the following RWD vehicles:
Alfa Six
Alfa GTV6
Alfa Giulietta (very rare)
Alfa 90
Alfa 75 V6
Alfa SZ and RZ (il Mostro)
Lancia stratos replicas
aeropilot said:
Guvernator said:
V5 - Honourable mentions to both Volvo and Ford but I think Audi have this sown up. If you like your cars of the classic persuasion then the Audi Quattro has to be the one, if you prefer newer then the 5pot unit found in the RS3 or TTRS is an absolute gem. It's a shame they haven't used it in much else.
Neither Volvo, Ford or Audi have ever used a V5.Guvernator said:
V6 - Seems like the most popular answer is the Alfa busso which is one of my favourites too. Just a shame it can't be had in anything RWD.
Err.....yes it can.As for the busso rwd thing, I am not an Alfa expert, at least not far back enough to have good knowledge of the era when they produced rear wheel drive cars so please do enlighten us with your superior knowledge...or do you just prefer to be pedantic and provide short cryptic responses instead.
kiseca said:
Some nice choices.
The Busso V6 can be enjoyed in the following RWD vehicles:
Alfa Six
Alfa GTV6
Alfa Giulietta (very rare)
Alfa 90
Alfa 75 V6
Alfa SZ and RZ (il Mostro)
Lancia stratos replicas
Ah thank you, a much more helpful response, I shall go look them up.The Busso V6 can be enjoyed in the following RWD vehicles:
Alfa Six
Alfa GTV6
Alfa Giulietta (very rare)
Alfa 90
Alfa 75 V6
Alfa SZ and RZ (il Mostro)
Lancia stratos replicas
The joys and despair of PH demonstrated in two posts.
kiseca said:
Just don't get confused between the GTV6 (RWD), the GTV V6 (FWD) and the GT V6 (also FWD) 
I think I know the newer ones, the GTV V6 is the smallish coupe or convertible that looks like someone's taken a samurai sword to the flanks and the GT V6 is the larger coupe with 4 seats, both feature the 3.0 litre version of the busso engine. It's just my RWD era Alfa knowledge where I am a bit lacking (shameful for a PH'er I know) but you are right, the names aren't confusing at all!
PorkFan said:
Exactly, wasn't the most powerful version the turbocharged, Individual throttle bodied, Pulsar Gti-R version putting out IIRC 227bhp..... only 10bhp less than the standard N/A F20C
Same goes for the cosworth 2.0, less bhp with a turbo. If any Turbo engine is worth a mention I'd say its the Evo 9 lump but still not as impressive as the F20c, followed by various other Honda '4s' like the K20, K24, B18, B16 before any of the others are even worth a mention. I dont know much about bikes but Hyabusa motors and im sure a few others are pretty impressive too.
Most powerful SR20 as standard was in S15 Silvia to my knowledge (~240-250bhp). S15 ran bigger injectors and a couple of other changes. Same goes for the cosworth 2.0, less bhp with a turbo. If any Turbo engine is worth a mention I'd say its the Evo 9 lump but still not as impressive as the F20c, followed by various other Honda '4s' like the K20, K24, B18, B16 before any of the others are even worth a mention. I dont know much about bikes but Hyabusa motors and im sure a few others are pretty impressive too.
Mind, as much as I like the SR20 (and mine has been flawless really), it does sound a bit… agricultural.
Guvernator said:
aeropilot said:
Guvernator said:
V5 - Honourable mentions to both Volvo and Ford but I think Audi have this sown up. If you like your cars of the classic persuasion then the Audi Quattro has to be the one, if you prefer newer then the 5pot unit found in the RS3 or TTRS is an absolute gem. It's a shame they haven't used it in much else.
Neither Volvo, Ford or Audi have ever used a V5.Guvernator said:
V6 - Seems like the most popular answer is the Alfa busso which is one of my favourites too. Just a shame it can't be had in anything RWD.
Err.....yes it can.As for the busso rwd thing, I am not an Alfa expert, at least not far back enough to have good knowledge of the era when they produced rear wheel drive cars so please do enlighten us with your superior knowledge...or do you just prefer to be pedantic and provide short cryptic responses instead.
MarshPhantom said:
dbdb said:
The Alfa names are a bit baffling, I agree. Wasn't the GTV6 a 2.5 litre?
I think they did a 3.0 but not in the UK, I could be wrong.The rest of the world got a 3 litre version - with injection - in the 75. The development of this engine was independent of the SA 3.0's development. I don't know if they have any common parts that aren't also common with the 2.5. This engine was also used in the SZ, RZ and then got its fancy chrome pipes when turned sideways and installed in the FWD 164. Eventually it developed 4 valves per cylinder and finally gained an extra 0.2 litres. It started with about 160bhp and ended its career with just under 250.
Guvernator said:
I think I know the newer ones, the GTV V6 is the smallish coupe or convertible that looks like someone's taken a samurai sword to the flanks and the GT V6 is the larger coupe with 4 seats, both feature the 3.0 litre version of the busso engine.
It's just my RWD era Alfa knowledge where I am a bit lacking (shameful for a PH'er I know) but you are right, the names aren't confusing at all!
Yep, you've got it It's just my RWD era Alfa knowledge where I am a bit lacking (shameful for a PH'er I know) but you are right, the names aren't confusing at all!
GTV V6
GT V6
GTV6
...and another for luck
Edited by kiseca on Saturday 23 May 13:33
DanielSan said:
There's sod all legendary about the SR20. It's an average engine that makes average power with a snail strapped to it. The F20C is a piece of genuine engineering brilliance.
Have a look at the SR16VE-N1 if you want to see some engineering brilliance. 197bhp from a N/A 1.6. cocopop said:
Also, I think Toyota's 2JZ could give the RB26 a run for it's money, as could BMW's S54.
Likewise Nissan SR20 against Honda's F20C.
+1 for 2JZ ('no sh*t') over the RB26. This goes for Jap stuff at least, whos best 6s were all FI. Greatest NA 6 is likely some BMW unit I suppose (I've owned many BMW 6s, not being disparaging at all). E46 M3 maybe?Likewise Nissan SR20 against Honda's F20C.
Remember getting my first Mkiv Supra, which was my first 6 after having exclusively 4s through my teens and early 20s. It may as well have been a twin-turbo V12 with regards to the feeling it gave me.
When I was into the Jap tuning scene, the consensus seemed to be that the 2JZ was significantly more dependable than the RBs. In spite of this, I always desired an R32/33/34 GTR, but am glad that I went down the 2JZ route, as neither of mine ever gave the slightest hint of bork. Unmolested R33 GTR V-Spec in Midnight Purple would still be snapped up at the right price ofcourse.
Wonder how this type of discussion will evolve over the coming years as different approaches to delivering electric power develop? It seems to me at the moment that there is little scope for differentiation in terms of power unit configuration in leccy vehicles (although I'm happy to be corrected). I don't see how there will ever be a super-desirable/ exciting eg. V8/ V12 equivalent electric lump, other than something with the newest battery drivetrain/ technology with the power/ torque turned up to a squillion. That's coming from a PHer who has watched virtually every Formula E race, by the way- I want to believe, but I remain unmoved.
Perhaps in the not-too-distant future I'll be posting about the new 2JZ engine sound pack I've downloaded and installed in my electric motor, and how wonderfully authentic it sounds... *shudder*
Have to agree with the post above. Almost all the engines mentioned in this thread are older, most being 10 years+. Apart from some recent exotica, I can't think of many engines made in the last few years that I can get really excited about. Almost everything is forced induction which already makes it tough to make them standout and it's made even worse because they are all basically tuned to operate in the same boring way. If someone where to have this same conversation in 20 years time, what legendary engines are they going to be talking about?
Single: Honda C90. Over sixty million made, by far the most successful engine (and indeed road vehicle) ever.
V-Twin: Ducati Desmoquattro series.
Triple: Ford Ecoboost
I4: Ford Cosworth YB
V4: Honda VFR
Flat 4: Volkswagen air cooled
I5: Audi Quattro 2.2
I6: Jaguar XK
V6: Alfa Romeo 'Busso' 3.0
Flat 6: Porsche air-cooled 911
V8: Scania V8
V10: Lexus LFA
V12: Rolls Royce Merlin
V16: English Electric 16CSVT
V-Twin: Ducati Desmoquattro series.
Triple: Ford Ecoboost
I4: Ford Cosworth YB
V4: Honda VFR
Flat 4: Volkswagen air cooled
I5: Audi Quattro 2.2
I6: Jaguar XK
V6: Alfa Romeo 'Busso' 3.0
Flat 6: Porsche air-cooled 911
V8: Scania V8
V10: Lexus LFA
V12: Rolls Royce Merlin
V16: English Electric 16CSVT
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