RE: The problem with Porsches: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
Athboy501 said:
Fair play to Dan. He's got the debate going, which I'm sure was the point... Driving traffic to the site!
for what it's worth I disagree with Dan and think Porsche have got it nailed on. the practicality and usability mean that they're easy to use more of the time.
I would defy anyone to drive my boxster spyder on a quiet country road and not find it a thrilling car. In town traffic it's not that thrilling... But why would anyone need it to be then? It can swallow up a lot of stuff however, it's comfy and it all works... Most of the time. It's limits are very high but like the current 981 generation the balance is still there at road speeds. To get to the limit consistently you need a track. When i take the boxster I never feel let down, and when you get to drive one hard much like in a 981 there's a lot of feel and a lot of enjoyment to be had.
Look at the competition (if you were buying new):
Slk- not what one would call engaging , inc AMG models
z4 - not what you'd class as a 'sharp tool'
370z - another blunt instrument
TT - FWD! Or front bias with haldex
Elise - exciting, fun, but feels cheap, much less practical,
Exige - see Elise comments but feels like even less value
Alfa 4C - style over substance
When I look into the market the only other 'sports car' I can contemplate buying that fulfills my needs is from lotus, but I never quite push the button because I. Can't bring myself to spend my hard earned money (again - I have been a frequent visitor to Norfolk in the past)) on something that finished a bit... Well -craply -to be honest.
Porsches aren't perfect - I totally agree, but in the current marketplace (for a new car) there isn't much out there that's better. That goes for the 911, Cayman, Macan, Boxster.. The whole lot really.
You missed the Evora. It's much less clear cut them. Evora v Cayman is too close to call. Evora 400 vs £72k carrera then I would go for 0-60 in 4.2 and 400bhp plus better handling and feel. for what it's worth I disagree with Dan and think Porsche have got it nailed on. the practicality and usability mean that they're easy to use more of the time.
I would defy anyone to drive my boxster spyder on a quiet country road and not find it a thrilling car. In town traffic it's not that thrilling... But why would anyone need it to be then? It can swallow up a lot of stuff however, it's comfy and it all works... Most of the time. It's limits are very high but like the current 981 generation the balance is still there at road speeds. To get to the limit consistently you need a track. When i take the boxster I never feel let down, and when you get to drive one hard much like in a 981 there's a lot of feel and a lot of enjoyment to be had.
Look at the competition (if you were buying new):
Slk- not what one would call engaging , inc AMG models
z4 - not what you'd class as a 'sharp tool'
370z - another blunt instrument
TT - FWD! Or front bias with haldex
Elise - exciting, fun, but feels cheap, much less practical,
Exige - see Elise comments but feels like even less value
Alfa 4C - style over substance
When I look into the market the only other 'sports car' I can contemplate buying that fulfills my needs is from lotus, but I never quite push the button because I. Can't bring myself to spend my hard earned money (again - I have been a frequent visitor to Norfolk in the past)) on something that finished a bit... Well -craply -to be honest.
Porsches aren't perfect - I totally agree, but in the current marketplace (for a new car) there isn't much out there that's better. That goes for the 911, Cayman, Macan, Boxster.. The whole lot really.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
It's not really the same though is it? Gear changes when automated make the goal of going faster more attainable not automate it all together.. To a degree we DO have automated braking and steering in the same principle - in the way of ABS, TCS and ASM etc.. Like flappy paddles though they enhance the speed you can go at as opposed to removing you as a driver..Porsche would seem to be a well run commercial organization, and as such will try to give the market what it wants and what it can legally produce. Evidently the stripped down 2.7RS type of car would not happen today,with the myriad regulatory requirements that have to be met by a global model, including fuel standards, safety and so on.
Within those regulations, if there is a volume demand for a standard shift car with none of the optional control technology not required by regulations, then it will be built. IF the demand is from a smaller passionate group, them it will not happen I suspect.
Within those regulations, if there is a volume demand for a standard shift car with none of the optional control technology not required by regulations, then it will be built. IF the demand is from a smaller passionate group, them it will not happen I suspect.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I think you're missing the point he's trying to make. Old cars needed a certain amount of finesse to drive well and quickly, that tactile response, the feeling that it's a machine with moving parts that respond to your inputs, the feeling that you're in control. My 306 GTI-6 had it in spades. It felt like it was communicating with you almost, like you turned the wheel and it responded but then talked back to you in response. My Seat Leon Cupra 180 feels remote and sanitised in comparison despite being just as fast. Every year cars become more remote, docile (I'm talking about how it feels to drive them, how 'connected' you feel to it and the road) and sanitised. The obsession with reducing NVH has resulted in cars that cosset and isolate you, even the 'best' of the bunch are still remote and 'comfortable' despite their prodigious power and four wheel drive. Sometimes it feels good to be connected and in control, not like you're driving by remote control and your inputs are examined by four different computer programs before anything happens. I mentioned 'tactile' above, I think that best describes it. That feeling of immediate response from your inputs without anything in between or any delay. Throttle by wire, electrical power steering, traction control to a certain extent and many other 'features' all remove or isolate what you touch in the cabin from what moves, steers and connects the car to the road.i had a 914 many years ago ...
a lot of the front was 911 parts ...balance was better , better footprint ..was wider wheelbase the 911 .
it was the baby porker ...but the 914-6 was up there with 911's
came first in class at le mans and most incredible was 7th overall !
then porsche wanted to make a 916 ... think they made 6 prototypes ..they were fast and were to be direct competition for ferrari dino ..
but here was the problem ..the car was a better design then the 911 ..faster ..and expensive if they were to sell it ..
so the top of the range would have changed ...
same problem for porsche today ....all the wishing for a small cheap porsche ..if it is slow it gets laughed at ( not real porsche from porsche people , laughed at from traffic lights if it is slower then fiats and fords )
if it is a great design like a boxster or cayman ...both of these ( mostly the cayman ) could if developed to the full whip a 911 most days ..
its just a great big go around circle ...
all new porsches have to be better then the older ones with more stuff ....911 are in supercar territory
and overtime in the past that porsche has tried a cheap car it damaged the image a bit ( 914 , 924 ....even 944 and maybe 912 )
550 , 356 ...912 were from different eras ..where these small cars were giant killers
anyway i ramble ...i would love a porsche along the lines of an elise ......but they won't make one ....and i can always just get an elise ...for this is what lotus is best in the world for doing
a lot of the front was 911 parts ...balance was better , better footprint ..was wider wheelbase the 911 .
it was the baby porker ...but the 914-6 was up there with 911's
came first in class at le mans and most incredible was 7th overall !
then porsche wanted to make a 916 ... think they made 6 prototypes ..they were fast and were to be direct competition for ferrari dino ..
but here was the problem ..the car was a better design then the 911 ..faster ..and expensive if they were to sell it ..
so the top of the range would have changed ...
same problem for porsche today ....all the wishing for a small cheap porsche ..if it is slow it gets laughed at ( not real porsche from porsche people , laughed at from traffic lights if it is slower then fiats and fords )
if it is a great design like a boxster or cayman ...both of these ( mostly the cayman ) could if developed to the full whip a 911 most days ..
its just a great big go around circle ...
all new porsches have to be better then the older ones with more stuff ....911 are in supercar territory
and overtime in the past that porsche has tried a cheap car it damaged the image a bit ( 914 , 924 ....even 944 and maybe 912 )
550 , 356 ...912 were from different eras ..where these small cars were giant killers
anyway i ramble ...i would love a porsche along the lines of an elise ......but they won't make one ....and i can always just get an elise ...for this is what lotus is best in the world for doing
Dan
No no no
The looks and the badge impress?
Seriously?
Only if you live next to a School Playground.
The best reaction from Joe Public is indifference - Porkers are hardly a rare sight.
Mostly, people hate them. They have an image and stigma problem.
NOBODY lets a Porsche out of a T-junction, me included.
It's a dull, mainstream, unimaginative, safe choice.
And while I wouldn't say they are driven BY cocks, they seem to be driven LIKE a cock, hence the expression "giving it the beans" has a whole other meaning if you drive a Porsche.
No no no
The looks and the badge impress?
Seriously?
Only if you live next to a School Playground.
The best reaction from Joe Public is indifference - Porkers are hardly a rare sight.
Mostly, people hate them. They have an image and stigma problem.
NOBODY lets a Porsche out of a T-junction, me included.
It's a dull, mainstream, unimaginative, safe choice.
And while I wouldn't say they are driven BY cocks, they seem to be driven LIKE a cock, hence the expression "giving it the beans" has a whole other meaning if you drive a Porsche.
Ed Straker said:
Dan
No no no
The looks and the badge impress?
Seriously?
Only if you live next to a School Playground.
The best reaction from Joe Public is indifference - Porkers are hardly a rare sight.
Mostly, people hate them. They have an image and stigma problem.
NOBODY lets a Porsche out of a T-junction, me included.
It's a dull, mainstream, unimaginative, safe choice.
And while I wouldn't say they are driven BY cocks, they seem to be driven LIKE a cock, hence the expression "giving it the beans" has a whole other meaning if you drive a Porsche.
I don't understand the mindset of not letting someone out of a junction purely due to the car they drive. So if you see a Boxster, you will purposely close the gap to the car in front? What if it was a 930? Do you look at the driver as well and make an instant judgement as to how much of a cock they are before determining if they are worthy to be let out?No no no
The looks and the badge impress?
Seriously?
Only if you live next to a School Playground.
The best reaction from Joe Public is indifference - Porkers are hardly a rare sight.
Mostly, people hate them. They have an image and stigma problem.
NOBODY lets a Porsche out of a T-junction, me included.
It's a dull, mainstream, unimaginative, safe choice.
And while I wouldn't say they are driven BY cocks, they seem to be driven LIKE a cock, hence the expression "giving it the beans" has a whole other meaning if you drive a Porsche.
I'm kicking myself that I didn't run a Porsche when I was living in the US for two years.
The backroads in Texas (Hill Country) and New Mexico are places where you can exploit their performance in relative safety, and without breaking the bank.
Not like the UK where Mr Plod and the high ownership/insurance costs take all the fun away.
My pick of the bunch would have been a Cayman S with a manual gearbox please.
The backroads in Texas (Hill Country) and New Mexico are places where you can exploit their performance in relative safety, and without breaking the bank.
Not like the UK where Mr Plod and the high ownership/insurance costs take all the fun away.
My pick of the bunch would have been a Cayman S with a manual gearbox please.
From a purely commercial point of view, Porsche have got it right by making cars that can be used as a daily driver with compromising your sanity. They have been doing this since the 996 at least and that's why we see so many of them, they are even available on some company car lists and are readily available on lease.
The very fact that they work means that you don't have to be wealthy enough to buy and run two cars to own one.
Living with a 991 or a Cayman is no harder than living with an Audi A4 or a BMW 5 series yet you have the added benefit of a better handling, more sports focussed car.
Is this a problem - to my mind no its not. There are other options for those that want something a bit more compromised, or more focussed.
The very fact that they work means that you don't have to be wealthy enough to buy and run two cars to own one.
Living with a 991 or a Cayman is no harder than living with an Audi A4 or a BMW 5 series yet you have the added benefit of a better handling, more sports focussed car.
Is this a problem - to my mind no its not. There are other options for those that want something a bit more compromised, or more focussed.
Ed Straker said:
Dan
No no no
The looks and the badge impress?
Seriously?
Only if you live next to a School Playground.
The best reaction from Joe Public is indifference - Porkers are hardly a rare sight.
Mostly, people hate them. They have an image and stigma problem.
NOBODY lets a Porsche out of a T-junction, me included.
It's a dull, mainstream, unimaginative, safe choice.
And while I wouldn't say they are driven BY cocks, they seem to be driven LIKE a cock, hence the expression "giving it the beans" has a whole other meaning if you drive a Porsche.
Personally I think the person not letting someone out of s junction just because of the car they are driving is the idiot here.No no no
The looks and the badge impress?
Seriously?
Only if you live next to a School Playground.
The best reaction from Joe Public is indifference - Porkers are hardly a rare sight.
Mostly, people hate them. They have an image and stigma problem.
NOBODY lets a Porsche out of a T-junction, me included.
It's a dull, mainstream, unimaginative, safe choice.
And while I wouldn't say they are driven BY cocks, they seem to be driven LIKE a cock, hence the expression "giving it the beans" has a whole other meaning if you drive a Porsche.
saff said:
It's not really the same though is it? Gear changes when automated make the goal of going faster more attainable not automate it all together.. To a degree we DO have automated braking and steering in the same principle - in the way of ABS, TCS and ASM etc.. Like flappy paddles though they enhance the speed you can go at as opposed to removing you as a driver..
Yep, that's exactly what it all does and what it's for. It's to make performance easier for the less skilled driver and I don't like it. The challenge is learning to drive 'difficult' cars, the reward is getting more performance out of yourself and the car. TCS/SC/PDK/etc all take away from this by doing your throttle control for you, heel and toe? don't need to to that, we'll do that for you too. Oh you want to slide a bit, but don't really understand what the car's doing, let SC give you a little bit of slip as you lead footedly slam your foot on the throttle mid corner. All these systems do make you faster, but they've dumbed the driver down to the point that stick them in an Elise or a Caterham and they'd be in the first hedge they came to.Personally I think this is a bad thing. I liked it when Darwin had a say in how fast people went. It meant that if you spent the time and learned your car control, you could go quickly. Interestingly because you then had an understanding of the physics involved, didn't go as quickly on the roads... When you f
ked up, you had an accident. Only yourself to blame. With the systems you can go faster still and have no real grasp of the consequences. I don't like that. I think it should have to be earned. Otherwise you might as well just play Gran Turismo or Forza.I don't think there is a problem with Porsche - they are providing a product lots of people want which is good business. The 911/Cayman/Boxster are safe, sensible, conservative choices of daily drive sports/GT car. The problem comes if there are no viable alternatives from other manufacturers for those people in the market who don't want the same sports/GT car as everyone else.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
It depends on how instrumental you see gear changing to the process of driving.I'm on the fence - I favour manual, but the more dual clutch gear boxes I use, have to admit the more I like them. I still think the next fun car I buy will be manual, but I doubt the one after will.
If I extrapolate your point, we'd all rather a car had manual ignition advance / retard? Maybe a steering box with plenty of slop? These certainly heighten the challenge and the skill and the mechanical interaction. And all at license safe speeds.
There is no right and wrong answer to this. it maybe a sad reality, but look at the sales from Lotus (lets not dwell on the Evora auto), sales of GT86, the fact that TVR are long gone. This pure driving experience that we say we want, isn't quite as straight forward as we all like to think.
"many of the current cars are over-tyred, over-geared and over-capable. Meaning you either take ever greater risks in an attempt to replicate the buzz the last one gave you. Or drive around frustrated and left cold by a car whose abilities far outstretch yours or the environment around you. Careful what you wish for and all that."
Dan Trent is quite correct. I sold my fast Audi within 5 months for these very reasons.
Auto-scoop-it-all-up cars are best left for the ham-fisted or grannies en route to a sales call
Dan Trent is quite correct. I sold my fast Audi within 5 months for these very reasons.
Auto-scoop-it-all-up cars are best left for the ham-fisted or grannies en route to a sales call
Yes, the current range is just so good in all areas and so useable. I used to drive my 996 GT3 to work some days, perfectly possible to go on continental trips and the odd track day, perfect. HOWEVER, I think the continual "arms race" on power is spoiling the experience now and the latest performance is simply too savage even in the Carrera 911's now. Trouble is the power is addictive................... how do we go back?
So speed matters but it isn't everything. Perhaps the modern technological development that is most helpful to drivers is the ability to keep older cars on the road as daily drivers with the ability to replace any part through the sort of processes that were only available to large manufacturers a few years ago. Singer et al have a market because Dan is right. I would wager that there are few more important stats for a UK driver than the footprint of a sports car. Modern Porsche will continue to develop vehicles that are technical tour-de-forces and which, in the 991's case, have an element of GT comfort about them. They will have to comply with modern mass market regulations for emissions and crash safety. They will continue to make cars that are one sneeze from a lost license or a very nasty pile up. Increasingly drivers may have to look elsewhere for something to thread easily down a country road.
If you're looking for character you'd find that in a classic.
I think Porsche are doing a great job picking up style vs performance vs heritage.
In the market they are segments of their own. Like it or not - I'dn't pick one, although the new Boxter / Cayman ... - Porsche does a great job.
2016 914 concept: yes please. Boxter with a hipo four / 4C competition.
2016 944 concept: 2-seater Panamera, shrunken and F-type competition > 3.6 and 4.8 look perfect.
Or am I mad?
I think Porsche are doing a great job picking up style vs performance vs heritage.
In the market they are segments of their own. Like it or not - I'dn't pick one, although the new Boxter / Cayman ... - Porsche does a great job.
2016 914 concept: yes please. Boxter with a hipo four / 4C competition.
2016 944 concept: 2-seater Panamera, shrunken and F-type competition > 3.6 and 4.8 look perfect.
Or am I mad?
Hungrymc said:
If I extrapolate your point, we'd all rather a car had manual ignition advance / retard? Maybe a steering box with plenty of slop? These certainly heighten the challenge and the skill and the mechanical interaction. And all at license safe speeds.
your point is valid against cars of pre-war vintage.However, i reckon someone will release a steering wheel with ignition advance soon, along with brake balance, turbo boost, race settings and more. Oh wait...
Goes down well at the golf club.
Dan you are wrong.
Porsche have set a new benchmark in the Turbo 4S. IMO this is simply one of the best cars you will ever drive - ticking all the boxes. It beats everything else hands down - modern or classic as a supercar and everyday driver.
The "problem" isn't that this car is "too good" - it is more about the associated price tag for all this technological advance and how we evaluate value for money. Our natural inclination is to calculate "bang for buck" and in this regard I would suggest that a 2.7 manual Boxster 981 may take pole position. It is clearly not nearly as brilliant as the 991 Turbo 4S - but for the money, it probably is far better value - all things considered.
We should celebrate any company who continually strives to move the engineering boundaries forward and set new technological benchmarks. Whether or not the application is commercially successful is another matter - mainly dependent on our perception of value.
Porsche have set a new benchmark in the Turbo 4S. IMO this is simply one of the best cars you will ever drive - ticking all the boxes. It beats everything else hands down - modern or classic as a supercar and everyday driver.
The "problem" isn't that this car is "too good" - it is more about the associated price tag for all this technological advance and how we evaluate value for money. Our natural inclination is to calculate "bang for buck" and in this regard I would suggest that a 2.7 manual Boxster 981 may take pole position. It is clearly not nearly as brilliant as the 991 Turbo 4S - but for the money, it probably is far better value - all things considered.
We should celebrate any company who continually strives to move the engineering boundaries forward and set new technological benchmarks. Whether or not the application is commercially successful is another matter - mainly dependent on our perception of value.
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