RE: The problem with Porsches: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
heebeegeetee said:
RobM77 said:
ery wise words and I completely agree.
Trouble is, the manufacturers can't wind the clock back. 
RobM77 earlier said:
I agree with the article, but it's not just Porsche, you could apply the same words to all manufacturers. One of them can't decide to suddenly go backwards, because they'd be penalised for it in the press - or would they?... 
(I'm thinking about the GT86 and how that was received).
(I'm thinking about the GT86 and how that was received).yonex said:
The problem with Porsche is I'm scared off by the reliability, but really quite fancy a Boxster/Cayman. You'd think people who don't like the brand who be happy knowing that the owners were playing roulette on a daily basis 
Buy a DFI-engined car or a car with one of the engines that never goes pop. Simples. ORD said:
yonex said:
The problem with Porsche is I'm scared off by the reliability, but really quite fancy a Boxster/Cayman. You'd think people who don't like the brand who be happy knowing that the owners were playing roulette on a daily basis
Buy a DFI-engined car or a car with one of the engines that never goes pop. Simples. Great article, but why pick on Porsche? You could level the same accusations at anything from a 300 BHP hot hatch to one of the new super cars. I dunno if it IS all this Nurburgring chasing lap times, but cars now are built for high speed track performance, not adjustability on your favourite B Road. They are also too wide, too heavy and over-tyred. Of course its dubious whether the 911 even qualifies as being a sports car any more being more of a hyper GT car. Reading this article makes me glad Caterham and Lotus still build the 7 and Elise respectively so we can still enjoy sub 1 ton non PAS cars with manual gearboxes and the new Mazda Mx-5 makes me happy....light, smaller than the older model and actually slower than the car it replaces!
Well, to a degree, with endless encroachments of regulation, cameras, radar,speed limits, and the next generation of vehicles with mandatory black boxes,followed but the autonomous vehicles, it is almost inevitable that the higher end got more track focused. Even the reasonably priced fun cars have to travel on increasingly speed-limited and monitored roads. It seems to me that the whole idea of a car begin for fun is viewed by many as the equivalent of smoking in pubs.
RDMcG said:
it is almost inevitable that the higher end got more track focused
This is also quite a large part of the problem as whilst such cars may have done impressive ring times how useable really are they as track cars? Its easy to forget but the very thing that kick started the air cooled 911 thing was track driving enthusiasts who didn't trust the non GT23 water cooled cars, that and the rise of classic car racing that came along at the same time. Someone well respected on here with the GT3 Porsches several years back claimed it would be more expensive to convert and run a vanilla 996 into a reliable track/race car than to just stump up the cash for a 996 GT3 or factory race car. I didn't believe it until I met someone who has raced both and told me it cost them more to race the 996 road car than their factory 996 cup. So there you go not much use as road cars and the wrong car for a track car. I hate to say this but as a long time owner of Porsche, a club member, part time racer and car nut I just don't get the current crop of Porsche road cars either. Again though I don't think Porsche is alone in this, all the fast German metal is becoming increasingly irrelevant.
Happy to come right out and say it; I dont like the brand.
I think they've moved so far up the value chain (have you seen the prices of a new c2 lately?!?), that they're just taking the piss. Look at some competing products (eg GTR), and then look at depreciation; its a ridiculous proposition.
And the funny thing is, I read some comments here about "what product will they produce to slot in at the bottom of the range". Well, why do they even need to do this? Because of said climb up the value chain, and having isolated and marginalised buyers at the lower price point.
Funny thing is, this "baby porsche" is nothing special. It will be the same in performance terms as a car 20-30 years old, with maybe one exception in operating terms; it will no doubt be modern and run a fuel efficient set of numbers.
Big deal.
Actually take the car from 20-30 years ago, and instead of paying 40, 50, or 60k, or whatever Porsche and their ridiculous pricing will demand, and you'll get the old car for a fraction. Yes, you'll have higher fuel bills. But the price difference will buy you a lot of fuel.
No. I hate the brand with a passion for the way they treat their customers through their pricing policies.
And you know what? Thats fine. Because I simply wont buy their cars, and they wont shed a tear for me, because there are enough idiots out there that fall for the marketing and PR that will allow the company to sell a slow, inferior product, to a fool willing to part with their money.
Keep to the slow lane fellas, GTR at half price coming through, and keep your OAP card handy.
I think they've moved so far up the value chain (have you seen the prices of a new c2 lately?!?), that they're just taking the piss. Look at some competing products (eg GTR), and then look at depreciation; its a ridiculous proposition.
And the funny thing is, I read some comments here about "what product will they produce to slot in at the bottom of the range". Well, why do they even need to do this? Because of said climb up the value chain, and having isolated and marginalised buyers at the lower price point.
Funny thing is, this "baby porsche" is nothing special. It will be the same in performance terms as a car 20-30 years old, with maybe one exception in operating terms; it will no doubt be modern and run a fuel efficient set of numbers.
Big deal.
Actually take the car from 20-30 years ago, and instead of paying 40, 50, or 60k, or whatever Porsche and their ridiculous pricing will demand, and you'll get the old car for a fraction. Yes, you'll have higher fuel bills. But the price difference will buy you a lot of fuel.
No. I hate the brand with a passion for the way they treat their customers through their pricing policies.
And you know what? Thats fine. Because I simply wont buy their cars, and they wont shed a tear for me, because there are enough idiots out there that fall for the marketing and PR that will allow the company to sell a slow, inferior product, to a fool willing to part with their money.
Keep to the slow lane fellas, GTR at half price coming through, and keep your OAP card handy.
Edited by big_rob_sydney on Sunday 31st May 18:59
big_rob_sydney said:
Happy to come right out and say it; I dont like the brand.
I think they've moved so far up the value chain (have you seen the prices of a new c2 lately?!?), that they're just taking the piss. Look at some competing products (eg GTR), and then look at depreciation; its a ridiculous proposition.
And the funny thing is, I read some comments here about "what product will they produce to slot in at the bottom of the range". Well, why do they even need to do this? Because of said climb up the value chain, and having isolated and marginalised buyers at the lower price point.
Funny thing is, this "baby porsched" is nothing special. It will be the same in performance terms as a car 20-30 years old, with maybe one exception in operating terms; it will no doubt be modern and run a fuel efficient set of numbers.
Big deal.
Actually take the car from 20-30 years ago, and instead of paying 40, 50, or 60k, or whatever Porsche and their ridiculous pricing will demand, and you'll get you old car for a fraction. Yes, you'll have higher fuel bills. But the price difference will buy you a lot of fuel.
No. I hate the brand with a passion for the way they treat their customers through their pricing policies.
And you know what? Thats fine. Because I simply wont buy their cars, and they wont shed a tear for me, because there are enough idiots out there that fall for the marketing and PR that will allow the company to sell a slow, inferior product, to a fool willing to part with their money.
Keep to the slow lane fellas, GTR at half price coming through, and keep your OAP card handy.
Ha! Funny. I took my Cayman R on track on Saturday and spanked 3 GTRs on track and I think you need to check out prices. A GTR is what £85k? That's a lot of money for a heavy Nissan for which the warranty is voided if you take it on track. How much is the braking system for a GTR? That's right mega bucks. The GTR is a great car but it's not a superior driving experience to my Cayman R, not by a long chalk. And I can't stand people calling others idiots because of their car choices. Anybody can pick holes in car choices. Such as why would you buy a heavy, automatic Datsun for track driving? And if you weren't going to take it on track why buy it at all when you can't use its performance? Different strokes for different folks.I think they've moved so far up the value chain (have you seen the prices of a new c2 lately?!?), that they're just taking the piss. Look at some competing products (eg GTR), and then look at depreciation; its a ridiculous proposition.
And the funny thing is, I read some comments here about "what product will they produce to slot in at the bottom of the range". Well, why do they even need to do this? Because of said climb up the value chain, and having isolated and marginalised buyers at the lower price point.
Funny thing is, this "baby porsched" is nothing special. It will be the same in performance terms as a car 20-30 years old, with maybe one exception in operating terms; it will no doubt be modern and run a fuel efficient set of numbers.
Big deal.
Actually take the car from 20-30 years ago, and instead of paying 40, 50, or 60k, or whatever Porsche and their ridiculous pricing will demand, and you'll get you old car for a fraction. Yes, you'll have higher fuel bills. But the price difference will buy you a lot of fuel.
No. I hate the brand with a passion for the way they treat their customers through their pricing policies.
And you know what? Thats fine. Because I simply wont buy their cars, and they wont shed a tear for me, because there are enough idiots out there that fall for the marketing and PR that will allow the company to sell a slow, inferior product, to a fool willing to part with their money.
Keep to the slow lane fellas, GTR at half price coming through, and keep your OAP card handy.
Strange bitter man with insecurities posts strange, bitter, insecure things.
Porsches are no more expensive than they were 20 years ago.
A base Boxster is actually extraordinarily good value when you think that a Golf is now £30k and a BMW 2 series with a decent engine is £34k plus options.
Porsches are no more expensive than they were 20 years ago.
A base Boxster is actually extraordinarily good value when you think that a Golf is now £30k and a BMW 2 series with a decent engine is £34k plus options.
big_rob_sydney said:
I think they've moved so far up the value chain (have you seen the prices of a new c2 lately?!?), that they're just taking the piss.
I'll criticise the price of Porsches with the best of them on some of their pricing strategy, but you just lost all credibility right there with your comment above^^. A 996 C2 at launch in '97 was what, £56K? In todays' money, that's £86K+ (http://goo.gl/rijX22). A current C2 is £73.5K base price....Mario149 said:
I'll criticise the price of Porsches with the best of them on some of their pricing strategy, but you just lost all credibility right there with your comment above^^. A 996 C2 at launch in '97 was what, £56K? In todays' money, that's £86K+ (http://goo.gl/rijX22). A current C2 is £73.5K base price....
Confirms my impression that, if anything, Porsches have got a little bit cheaper.anonymous said:
[redacted]
Partly that and partly that a lot of inputs have got cheaper (materials from China, etc) and, of course, processes have been mechanised further and made more efficient generally.It is amazing how basic and old-fashioned car making was even 30 years ago (in Europe at least - Japan was steaming ahead).
Am I right in thinking that Porsche and Merc now sell far more cars? If so, scale and scope will reduce prices a great deal.
We all bang on about old cars being brilliantly made, but the reality is that almost all of them were hopelessly unreliable compared to modern cars, and the tolerances in manufacturing were huge. We just wouldn't tolerate the kind of shoddy workmanship that you see on an old car if you stop for a moment and stop adoring how quirky it is and how thick the leather is.
Porsches don't blow up anymore, which is nice. And 911s don't bob around like drunken teenagers trying to hop...which was 'character' apparently, rather than been a bit s
t (Luxury cars were a bit different, but the point still stands to an extent. Materials have got cheaper but build quality and reliability has generally shot up.)
StottyEvo said:
With regards to the gearing I've discussed this a few times with a friend in his Boxster S. The extremely long gears take half of the fun out of the car, they make the engine feel lazy. I think he hits over 100 in third gear, which isn't too great in a car with 248hp.
Like many other cars in this sector (ignoring price), you spend a lot of time on B roads in second gear. Best example of this that I've driven is the S2000 - second all the way on a B road. My 987S - second gear on B roads. I don't mind, as it doesn't spoil my enjoyment of the car. It's clearly geared to keep the engine in the power band at high speeds where the effect of drag becomes more pronounced. Don't forget, drag increases proportionally with the square of velocity, so holding the power band at high speeds is far more important for overall performance than at British road speeds. And also, don't forget that this car is German, where Autobahns frequently don't have a speed limit.I suspect that the thing that will shorten the life of current cars will be the electronics. We live in a world where we throw away phones in two years,laptops in three and so on, yet we build huge amounts of computing power into modern cars with no clear upgrade path. In a used car, blow an airbag and you have a good chance of a write-off. My 2003 SL500 is as good as new, but the interior is antique. When you start talking about ECUs and all the rest, the chances of lasting for 30 years seem remote to me. It will only get worse in the future.
Porsche doesn't need to change anything. It knows what its customers want and it delivers it. For me, their competence at being ordinary cars detracts from their specialness as sportscars, but it is that competence at commuting into Canary Wharf as much as their competence at the Nurburgring which enables them to sell so well. I often point out when people say that Lotuses should be more like Porsches that you can already buy an excellent Porsche from Porsche. Likewise, if what Porsche do is not your thing, there are other choices doing their own thing.
DavidJG said:
Like many other cars in this sector (ignoring price), you spend a lot of time on B roads in second gear. Best example of this that I've driven is the S2000 - second all the way on a B road. My 987S - second gear on B roads. I don't mind, as it doesn't spoil my enjoyment of the car. It's clearly geared to keep the engine in the power band at high speeds where the effect of drag becomes more pronounced. Don't forget, drag increases proportionally with the square of velocity, so holding the power band at high speeds is far more important for overall performance than at British road speeds. And also, don't forget that this car is German, where Autobahns frequently don't have a speed limit.
That's the problem, I don't want to be in second gear the whole time, I want to be banging up and down the 'box at least a little bit as being in the same gear does kill my enjoyment. I take you point and being in the power band at high speed on B-roads, but let's be honesta) that's not what Porsche were thinking when they set up the gearing for the 981s (esp the manual 'box), it's purely about emissions and possibly vacuous 'ring lap times but I doubt even that really
and
b) when going for a hoon, we don't drive NSL country roads in second gear at 7k rpm the whole time
I went for a spin in the 7.1 GT3 today on country roads in Surrey and revved it out in second precisely once on a road that had been signposted as closed so I knew there wasn't going to be any major traffic. The rest of the time I was short shifting trying to keep the back end in line in the damp. It was fun, but in reality, I'd have got more satisfaction from being in my 993 where I could have given it the full potatoes using more gears. I forgive the GT3 as it's clearly track biased and great when I'm on a track day, but the notion that 84mph in second in a manual 981 (I presume it's a bit more sensible in a 987) suits the car's application is wide of the mark IMO.
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