RE: The problem with Porsches: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
J-P said:
Ha! Funny. I took my Cayman R on track on Saturday and spanked 3 GTRs on track and I think you need to check out prices. A GTR is what £85k? That's a lot of money for a heavy Nissan for which the warranty is voided if you take it on track. How much is the braking system for a GTR? That's right mega bucks. The GTR is a great car but it's not a superior driving experience to my Cayman R, not by a long chalk. And I can't stand people calling others idiots because of their car choices. Anybody can pick holes in car choices. Such as why would you buy a heavy, automatic Datsun for track driving? And if you weren't going to take it on track why buy it at all when you can't use its performance? Different strokes for different folks.
Hilarious, actually. I guess you must just be a driving god then, eh?The GTR compares to the Porsche Turbo. How much is that again; are you saying its cheaper than the GTR?
And I suppose Porsche brakes are insignificant sums as well?
Sorry buddy, but the GTR is a beast, at a fraction of the price.
And for the numpty talking about c2s starting at 73k, hah! Of course a base model with zero options does. But who on earth is happy with a 350 bhp 911 with no options? Thats hot hatch territory. Last thread I was in saw the 911 priced at, what was it, 117k? Thats just a "tad" more than the 73k being disingenuously touted here.
But hey, why let the truth get in the way? And if the GTR is just a datsun, what does that make the 911? A squashed vw beetle??
Meh, overpriced, and massive depreciating expense.
I don't get GTRs at all. Characterless engine, ugly as sin, dull AWD handling and massively reliant on electronics.
Sure, it is fast, but nowhere near as fast as a 996 Turbo with a few grands worth of fettling.
Once you start banging on about how quick something is for the money, it's a losing game. An old turbo car will always win that fight by a country mile.
Sure, it is fast, but nowhere near as fast as a 996 Turbo with a few grands worth of fettling.
Once you start banging on about how quick something is for the money, it's a losing game. An old turbo car will always win that fight by a country mile.
The GT-R isn't characterless as standard, it gives you feed back has bite & we all know where upping the power can go it's not the prettiest but it's still a very good car at any price point, if you want to know how good have a long drive in one, also read this months Evo.
Also when it comes to comparing a 996tt to an R34 as close as it is I'd take the R34 for me the it's a great car tuning wise they're both in the same league as for appreciating both are especially R32's & as for Classic GT-R's from the 60/70's well they're right up there with early 911's but also much rarer.
The main problem with enjoying new car 991/GT-R is that they're to big down most A roads you'll almost be on the cats eyes take an E30 down the same road & you have room to have some fun.
Also when it comes to comparing a 996tt to an R34 as close as it is I'd take the R34 for me the it's a great car tuning wise they're both in the same league as for appreciating both are especially R32's & as for Classic GT-R's from the 60/70's well they're right up there with early 911's but also much rarer.
The main problem with enjoying new car 991/GT-R is that they're to big down most A roads you'll almost be on the cats eyes take an E30 down the same road & you have room to have some fun.
ORD said:
I don't get GTRs at all. Characterless engine, ugly as sin, dull AWD handling and massively reliant on electronics.
Sure, it is fast, but nowhere near as fast as a 996 Turbo with a few grands worth of fettling.
Once you start banging on about how quick something is for the money, it's a losing game. An old turbo car will always win that fight by a country mile.
Not a fan of the GTR, but appreciate that it has a rather special niche in the market and certainly a catalyst.Sure, it is fast, but nowhere near as fast as a 996 Turbo with a few grands worth of fettling.
Once you start banging on about how quick something is for the money, it's a losing game. An old turbo car will always win that fight by a country mile.
big_rob_sydney said:
And for the numpty talking about c2s starting at 73k, hah! Of course a base model with zero options does. But who on earth is happy with a 350 bhp 911 with no options? Thats hot hatch territory. Last thread I was in saw the 911 priced at, what was it, 117k? Thats just a "tad" more than the 73k being disingenuously touted here.
.
Straw man fella. You complained how far up the value chain they'd moved which I've just shown is complete tosh, so a little less personal insulting and a little more careful reading please. How much they cost to start with (options or not) is a completely different question, but like it or not, in real terms they're cheaper than they used to be..
Edited by Mario149 on Monday 1st June 09:35
Buster73 said:
I've just driven a GT3 991 and a Nissan GTR back to back on the track , the Nissan may be slightly quicker in a straight line but as driving cars there is no comparison imho.
Did you try it against the 991 Turbo? As that's it's rival when it comes to 911's the GT3 is a better more fun drive than the GT-R in the same way the 458 Speciale beats.Edited by ZX10R NIN on Monday 1st June 08:35
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Without wishing to stereotype, this is my experience as well. Last time I saw one on track at Bedford it was several seconds slower per lap than me in the GT3, and I'm merely a competent track driver who is fully aware that I only have a bit of TC to save me if it all goes wrong. The chap driving the GTR then cut up a McLaren and they almost came together, then tried to start a fight in the paddock with the Macca owner afterwards.Wonder if it was this chap?!
https://vimeo.com/109257775
Mario149 said:
Without wishing to stereotype, this is my experience as well. Last time I saw one on track at Bedford it was several seconds slower per lap than me in the GT3, and I'm merely a competent track driver who is fully aware that I only have a bit of TC to save me if it all goes wrong. The chap driving the GTR then cut up a McLaren and they almost came together, then tried to start a fight in the paddock with the Macca owner afterwards.
Wonder if it was this chap?!
https://vimeo.com/109257775
I love that video. The driving is diabolical, the understeer is prodigious, and the chap really seems to think that he (rather than ESC) is driving the car!Wonder if it was this chap?!
https://vimeo.com/109257775
I believe that is hard to compare track driving and road driving. The last time I experienced a GT-R was a 2013 model on mountain roads in Italy and immpressed me. A German friend, who I consider a better driver than I am, was constantly struggling to keep the same pace through bends in his 997.2 turbo manual.
But for track use I would never consider a GT-R, or any 4wd car. To be fair even 991 GT3 that seemed in my brief experience great for track use is not what I expect from a track experience. I would personally get more fun in a Lotus 2-eleven, one of the most satisfying cars I ever drove on a track.
But for track use I would never consider a GT-R, or any 4wd car. To be fair even 991 GT3 that seemed in my brief experience great for track use is not what I expect from a track experience. I would personally get more fun in a Lotus 2-eleven, one of the most satisfying cars I ever drove on a track.
big_rob_sydney said:
Hilarious, actually. I guess you must just be a driving god then, eh?
The GTR compares to the Porsche Turbo. How much is that again; are you saying its cheaper than the GTR?
And I suppose Porsche brakes are insignificant sums as well?
Sorry buddy, but the GTR is a beast, at a fraction of the price.
And for the numpty talking about c2s starting at 73k, hah! Of course a base model with zero options does. But who on earth is happy with a 350 bhp 911 with no options? Thats hot hatch territory. Last thread I was in saw the 911 priced at, what was it, 117k? Thats just a "tad" more than the 73k being disingenuously touted here.
But hey, why let the truth get in the way? And if the GTR is just a datsun, what does that make the 911? A squashed vw beetle??
Meh, overpriced, and massive depreciating expense.
No I'm a terrible driver - would expect to get my ass handed to me on most track days, hence why overtaking the GTRs is all the more surprising.The GTR compares to the Porsche Turbo. How much is that again; are you saying its cheaper than the GTR?
And I suppose Porsche brakes are insignificant sums as well?
Sorry buddy, but the GTR is a beast, at a fraction of the price.
And for the numpty talking about c2s starting at 73k, hah! Of course a base model with zero options does. But who on earth is happy with a 350 bhp 911 with no options? Thats hot hatch territory. Last thread I was in saw the 911 priced at, what was it, 117k? Thats just a "tad" more than the 73k being disingenuously touted here.
But hey, why let the truth get in the way? And if the GTR is just a datsun, what does that make the 911? A squashed vw beetle??
Meh, overpriced, and massive depreciating expense.
I did try the GTR a few years back and whilst it was a great car in many ways there some major issues with it for me even at £60k, let alone the £85k or so it is now.
1. Low speed ride is woeful
For a car that is meant to be used and indeed is championed as a "jack of all trades", I couldn't use it everyday without fear for my licence. Because the damping only really works above 50MPH at anything less than that is outrageously uncomfortable and just awful - unlike any Porsche I've driven.
(above 50MPh it's a great car though admittedly).
2. It sounds rubbish
The engine is just a tool to make it quick, there is no character to the sound of the engine. My wife described it as listening to a bucket of bolts swirling about and I agree with her. The Porsche on the other hand has a great and characterful flat six wail - the noises it makes are in a different league to the GTR IMHO.
3. Warranty scares
I've no idea how true some of these things are but if it's true that taking it on track voids your warranty, then quite frankly that's rubbish. I also remember reading some stories that the launch control puts the car in limp home mode after a few goes - neither of which are issues with Porsches. And again if it's true that the braking system would cost £30k for replacement, then clearly that's ridiculous too - Even PCCBs wouldn't cost that much to replace and the std steelies are way cheaper than that.
Finally, you mentioned that Porsche were taking the mickey on pricing as their car are getting too expensive and then suggesting that Nissan was doing a better job. Really? The GTR was under £60k when it launched in the UK around 6 or 7 years ago, it's now £85k - that's a much faster than inflation increase and that's taking the mick as the Yen has moved in our favour since launch of the GTR, so it should be cheaper not more expensive. Porsche prices have increased significantly less, albeit from a higher starting point.
Edited by J-P on Monday 1st June 18:28
Mario149 said:
big_rob_sydney said:
And for the numpty talking about c2s starting at 73k, hah! Of course a base model with zero options does. But who on earth is happy with a 350 bhp 911 with no options? Thats hot hatch territory. Last thread I was in saw the 911 priced at, what was it, 117k? Thats just a "tad" more than the 73k being disingenuously touted here.
.
Straw man fella. You complained how far up the value chain they'd moved which I've just shown is complete tosh, so a little less personal insulting and a little more careful reading please. How much they cost to start with (options or not) is a completely different question, but like it or not, in real terms they're cheaper than they used to be..
Edited by Mario149 on Monday 1st June 09:35
All performance cars are in danger of becoming irrelevant..
The latest GTR is an outstanding car IMO, for its weight it defies the laws of physics, and this coming from a Very happy 996 T owner.
I have not driven one but have competed against 2 well driven examples both with just under 600bhp. My Turbo has around 550 and some decent KW suspension, at a recent sprint at Goodwood, I was beaten by a GTR by 0.9 sec and recently at Gurston hillclimb I beat another GTR by just under 0.5 sec.
To me, they are on a fairly equal level in terms of performance on track; however the GTR is a BIG car and not my cup of tea, too many electronics for my liking.
I have not driven one but have competed against 2 well driven examples both with just under 600bhp. My Turbo has around 550 and some decent KW suspension, at a recent sprint at Goodwood, I was beaten by a GTR by 0.9 sec and recently at Gurston hillclimb I beat another GTR by just under 0.5 sec.
To me, they are on a fairly equal level in terms of performance on track; however the GTR is a BIG car and not my cup of tea, too many electronics for my liking.
ZX10R NIN said:
Did you try it against the 991 Turbo? As that's it's rival when it comes to 911's the GT3 is a better more fun drive than the GT-R in the same way the 458 Speciale beats.
No , the way the day was structured the Turbo wasn't available when it was my turn on the track , to be fair out of the two Porsches on display I was over the moon to be told I would be driving the GT3.Edited by ZX10R NIN on Monday 1st June 08:35
anonymous said:
[redacted]
true. but to be fair most Porsches on track days are badly driven too. I suspect in part it's due to owners being cautious with their expensive car and also that most Porsches on TDs are relative noobs going on track having got the car, which is fair enough. This, and the fact any good driver with a 911 wouldn't want to waste his time with most 'normal' track days as he'd get held up too much. Power makes you lazy, which is why the best lines are normally taken by the slower cars.
As I said read this months Evo, I was surprised to see the 911T lose out to a GT-R as a track car & a road car. 4WS 4WD Active Engine Mounts these are on the 911 "lack of steering feel" was one of the comments aimed at the 911T but both are hugely capable cars.
It's down to personal tastes but there are more than a few bad Porsche drivers to, as I said before both are now a bit to big for A road fun now.
It's down to personal tastes but there are more than a few bad Porsche drivers to, as I said before both are now a bit to big for A road fun now.
Having not experienced 911s/ Caymans, or many Porsches in general, I'm certainly not best qualified to comment.
However I must say that having spent time with a friends' 987 Boxster S and a Boxster Spyder shortly after lauch, I was totally blown away.
Can't imagine that many 911s would top the experience, particularly given my very average ability to go fast.
Perhaps modern Porsches do have issues with being 'too capable' or less analogue/ pure than the older cars, but I felt absolutely dialled into the modern Boxster within afew minutes.
Having experienced lots of older darlings of the PH world (mk1 Elise, mk1 MX5, E30 M3), I instantly knew I'd rather live with a new Boxster than any of them. I'm sure that says more about my level of ability than it does about any of those cars, but there it is.
However I must say that having spent time with a friends' 987 Boxster S and a Boxster Spyder shortly after lauch, I was totally blown away.
Can't imagine that many 911s would top the experience, particularly given my very average ability to go fast.
Perhaps modern Porsches do have issues with being 'too capable' or less analogue/ pure than the older cars, but I felt absolutely dialled into the modern Boxster within afew minutes.
Having experienced lots of older darlings of the PH world (mk1 Elise, mk1 MX5, E30 M3), I instantly knew I'd rather live with a new Boxster than any of them. I'm sure that says more about my level of ability than it does about any of those cars, but there it is.
daveofedinburgh said:
Perhaps modern Porsches do have issues with being 'too capable' or less analogue/ pure than the older cars, but I felt absolutely dialled into the modern Boxster within afew minutes.
Having experienced lots of older darlings of the PH world (mk1 Elise, mk1 MX5, E30 M3), I instantly knew I'd rather live with a new Boxster than any of them. I'm sure that says more about my level of ability than it does about any of those cars, but there it is.
to "live with" yes, a modern Porsche. Which is why you dialled into it so easily, it's comfortable and does everything for you. For a more rewarding drive you want an old 2.7, that'll stop you driving and texting!Having experienced lots of older darlings of the PH world (mk1 Elise, mk1 MX5, E30 M3), I instantly knew I'd rather live with a new Boxster than any of them. I'm sure that says more about my level of ability than it does about any of those cars, but there it is.
Do you ever miss you old darlings at the weekend sometimes?
daveofedinburgh said:
Having experienced lots of older darlings of the PH world (mk1 Elise, mk1 MX5, E30 M3), I instantly knew I'd rather live with a new Boxster than any of them. I'm sure that says more about my level of ability than it does about any of those cars, but there it is.
I don't think it necessarily says anything about your level of ability, more just a matter of your personal taste, i.e. what you as an individual particularly enjoy or don't enjoy in a car. I am no great driving god either but while I was extremely impressed by the capability and apparent build quality of the 991 I didn't feel the slightest interest driving one again, whether as a weekend toy or routine transport, being much happier using my collection of (by comparison) old bangers for everyday transport (the choice of which one depending on where I'm driving and with what companions and/or clobber). Just been invited by my local OPC to drive a current car and get a free lunch, and for a nanosecond I thought "Well, I suppose I could" but then (as usual) decided it would be a waste of everyone's time, theirs and mine alike.
I suppose to go down the old darlings route you do have to have sufficient ability and experience to be confident driving reasonably high powered cars in all weathers without all the modern electronic aids, but if you grew up without them that's not generally a problem, and if you didn't it's really just a case of getting proper training in a safe low friction environment, which readily available.
Edited by Lowtimer on Tuesday 2nd June 11:20
As a serial owner of Porsches, both old and new, starting with a 1970 911T and now recently having purchased a new 911GTS, with various other 911 variants including a G3 RS(2007), 944, 928, and even Cayenne along the way, I can say this..
Each and every Porsche has a character of its own. Exploring their limits to the outside edge is almost never a good idea on public roads, but there's the beauty of them. They inspire confidence that the driver is in complete control of the car at all speeds, including those well above the limits set by the laws of the land. The new GTS, which is a perfectly balanced and powerful machine is every bit as much fun to drive at 50mph on a country road as it is when pressed into a power-slide on the track. It can be a long range cruiser, a grocery getter, a commuter, or a track day weapon.....your choice. But in all applications, it is just fun to drive, and dare I admit it....comfortable. And that is the common element with all of the company's car's. They make you feel good when you drive them! So all this rubbish about being "too good" is just a nonsense in my view. Go out and try a few different Porsches, keeping an open mind to new or older vintages to suit your taste and budget. My two favourites to date, for the record, are a 1986 911 3.2 cabriolet which is coming up on 200,000 miles and at the moment, the new GTS. Incidentally, I am not on the Porsche payroll, just an appreciative owner of a sample of their great sports cars.
Each and every Porsche has a character of its own. Exploring their limits to the outside edge is almost never a good idea on public roads, but there's the beauty of them. They inspire confidence that the driver is in complete control of the car at all speeds, including those well above the limits set by the laws of the land. The new GTS, which is a perfectly balanced and powerful machine is every bit as much fun to drive at 50mph on a country road as it is when pressed into a power-slide on the track. It can be a long range cruiser, a grocery getter, a commuter, or a track day weapon.....your choice. But in all applications, it is just fun to drive, and dare I admit it....comfortable. And that is the common element with all of the company's car's. They make you feel good when you drive them! So all this rubbish about being "too good" is just a nonsense in my view. Go out and try a few different Porsches, keeping an open mind to new or older vintages to suit your taste and budget. My two favourites to date, for the record, are a 1986 911 3.2 cabriolet which is coming up on 200,000 miles and at the moment, the new GTS. Incidentally, I am not on the Porsche payroll, just an appreciative owner of a sample of their great sports cars.
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