RE: The problem with Porsches: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
I test drove a Cayman GTS on Friday. Its a fantastic car, the pdk is intoxicating, and it was pretty quick. But its not perfect, the steering feel was lacking, I could carry speed through the corners the way I can in the Evora. But its very temping and with pdk I would say it isn't dull, unlike the 991 I also drove which is definitely a GT car (basic 991).
What it is, is flattering, it can make an average driver like me very fast thanks to pdk.
Will I order one? Maybe, if I cant find the right Evora to replace mine.
What it is, is flattering, it can make an average driver like me very fast thanks to pdk.
Will I order one? Maybe, if I cant find the right Evora to replace mine.
daytona365 said:
I keep tropical fish, in my underpants. Do you come from Peckham ?
Peckham, Only Fools and horses, may I confined in you Mr Daytona 365? My two favourite English shows are UFO and Fools and Horses so though I have never been I will go their one day to meet up with some Diamond geezers!Gary C said:
Not driven the current electric assist steering which kambites I think is complaining about but the unassisted in mine and the hydraulic in a 997 gt3 is perfect once you learn to drive one. They can be light and heavy as YOU the driver, moves the mass. Not many road cars need the driver to do so much to get the performance out of the chassis.
Sort of. I like the light front end of the 911 family, I just don't get on with the details of the steering of recent cars - specifically the weird variable ratio rack in the 9x7 series and the EPAS system in the 981 (and presumably the 991, although I haven't driven that). The 996 and 986 have respectable, if not exceptional, steering. Whilst there are other flaws, I could live with everything eles about the dynamics of recent Porsches... not the steering, though. The thing is, they have no competition - if you want a new 2+2 GT which can actually take four people and can at least pretend to be a sports car when the mood takes you, what other options are there? Porsches may be getting worse to drive, but they're still better than almost anything else comparable.
The auto-only config of the GT3 is, to my mind, a bit daft but then it's not a car I'd ever buy anyway so my opinion is rather meaningless. I'm sure Porsche know what they're doing when it comes to selling the things. Ultimately, Porsche are producing the cars the market wants, the fact that those aren't what a few of us consider "traditional driver's cars" is hardly their fault; Lotus make them and look at their sales figures.
Edited by kambites on Sunday 24th May 18:25
I had a 2S 991 for a 24hr test drive when it first came out. I drove it from the showroom around 20 miles to my house, parked it, and drove it back the next day. I had zero interest in any of it.
For starters, it felt nothing like a 911. I know car journalists drive an awful lot of cars and have well informed opinions, but I think they are often too close to certain machines to really "see" them. I'm sure the balance, the grip, the power, and the front end of a 991 all add up to more options and more enjoyment (or speed) on the track, but they combine to make a seriously dull uninspired road car. There was no "bob", no sense of where the weight was. There was a horrible, horrible exhaust note (I know sound is subjective, but it sounds nothing like a flat six - it just sounded utterly artificial and piercing). The sound as it approached the red-line was practically a sine wave - physically unpleasant. Then there was the PDK, robbing me of that special gearbox feel you only get in sports cars - like the chassis it was objectively extremely good, but with so little sensory input from the rest of the car it was instantly hateful.
The worst thing for me though, was the cabin. 911s have never been dramatic inside, but they were always uniquely shaped - close the the windscreen, quite upright, cosy and compact. I might as well have been in an audi a4 as far as I was concerned in the 991. It was all so wrong.
It's not too good. It's just disappointingly bland and uninspiring.
For starters, it felt nothing like a 911. I know car journalists drive an awful lot of cars and have well informed opinions, but I think they are often too close to certain machines to really "see" them. I'm sure the balance, the grip, the power, and the front end of a 991 all add up to more options and more enjoyment (or speed) on the track, but they combine to make a seriously dull uninspired road car. There was no "bob", no sense of where the weight was. There was a horrible, horrible exhaust note (I know sound is subjective, but it sounds nothing like a flat six - it just sounded utterly artificial and piercing). The sound as it approached the red-line was practically a sine wave - physically unpleasant. Then there was the PDK, robbing me of that special gearbox feel you only get in sports cars - like the chassis it was objectively extremely good, but with so little sensory input from the rest of the car it was instantly hateful.
The worst thing for me though, was the cabin. 911s have never been dramatic inside, but they were always uniquely shaped - close the the windscreen, quite upright, cosy and compact. I might as well have been in an audi a4 as far as I was concerned in the 991. It was all so wrong.
It's not too good. It's just disappointingly bland and uninspiring.
DonkeyApple said:
Let's not purely look at Porsche. Modern cars full stop, are genuinely amazing and as a result all suffer from being soulless on normal roads. It's why so many people are opting to buy old models of many types of car so as to get back to some basic sort of driving experience.
But driving a 2013 m3 and a 997 gt3 I found the gt3 to be an excellent and exciting car that allowed me as a driver to get things wrong as much as right, whereas the m3 just flattered me. I'm sure with the electronics off on both cars I would have discovered more from the m3 but I think the 997 gt3 would still have been the car with more depth.Has this been lost in the 991 ?
In addition, when I drove the gt3, I also drove a gt2 too, which on a twisty track was not as competent.
the article said:
And what else was Porsche going to do? Proudly exclaim that its new 911 is slower, heavier, uglier, thirstier and more prone to catastrophic engine failures than the last one? Some may argue that was the case with the 996 but
No-one would argue that the 996 was slower or thirstier than the last one as it simply isn't true. Not sure about weight.Uglier is entirely subjective and could easily be said for many generations (993 was definitely uglier than 964), but I personally prefer 996 to 993.
Well, I'm not sure I agree with all of the above. I currently own a 981 Boxster S and before that had a 996 C4S, and in every way IMO the Boxster is the better car - although when I bought the 911 I thought that was excellent too. Its called evolution I guess, and as a customer I'm perfectly happy with a superbly engineered reliable and all round excellent product. I'd probably even go so far as to say I wouldn't be hugely pleased if Porsche started to engineer in faults or defunct tech really.
On a personal note I really don't get all the looking back with rose tinted specs at the aircooled cars and older water cooled (albeit the latter to a much lesser degree) either. Yes some of the air cooled cars look beautiful - and sound good too - but I remember feeling distinctly underwhelmed by the way 993's drove when I went looking several years ago and bought a 996 in preference as it was a better drivers machine in my opinion. As to the prices being asked of some of them now - daft - they've just moved into the realm of being collector trinkets and not for drivers (in the main). Oh well - I'm sure none of this chimes with the PH mentality, but it's good that we don't all agree that its all bad news for modern Porsche's. Would anyone here really not be in anyway interested in for example a GT3/4 or 991 targa or a Boxster Spyder??
On a personal note I really don't get all the looking back with rose tinted specs at the aircooled cars and older water cooled (albeit the latter to a much lesser degree) either. Yes some of the air cooled cars look beautiful - and sound good too - but I remember feeling distinctly underwhelmed by the way 993's drove when I went looking several years ago and bought a 996 in preference as it was a better drivers machine in my opinion. As to the prices being asked of some of them now - daft - they've just moved into the realm of being collector trinkets and not for drivers (in the main). Oh well - I'm sure none of this chimes with the PH mentality, but it's good that we don't all agree that its all bad news for modern Porsche's. Would anyone here really not be in anyway interested in for example a GT3/4 or 991 targa or a Boxster Spyder??
Flying machine said:
Well, I'm not sure I agree with all of the above. I currently own a 981 Boxster S and before that had a 996 C4S, and in every way IMO the Boxster is the better car - although when I bought the 911 I thought that was excellent too. Its called evolution I guess, and as a customer I'm perfectly happy with a superbly engineered reliable and all round excellent product. I'd probably even go so far as to say I wouldn't be hugely pleased if Porsche started to engineer in faults or defunct tech really.
On a personal note I really don't get all the looking back with rose tinted specs at the aircooled cars and older water cooled (albeit the latter to a much lesser degree) either. Yes some of the air cooled cars look beautiful - and sound good too - but I remember feeling distinctly underwhelmed by the way 993's drove when I went looking several years ago and bought a 996 in preference as it was a better drivers machine in my opinion. As to the prices being asked of some of them now - daft - they've just moved into the realm of being collector trinkets and not for drivers (in the main). Oh well - I'm sure none of this chimes with the PH mentality, but it's good that we don't all agree that its all bad news for modern Porsche's. Would anyone here really not be in anyway interested in for example a GT3/4 or 991 targa or a Boxster Spyder??
I am inclined to agree. Every time a new model comes out it seems as if there is a chorus of praise for the old one, now retroactively raised to perfection. Of course Porsches are not a linear development with every single mode better than the previous one,but there are significant improvements. When I bought my 997.1 RS there were lots of comments about hoe much better the 996RS had been. The 997.2 was a much better can and seems to have been raised to sainthood. Now, as i wait to pick up the 991RS I see all sorts of comments about how terrible it is. On a personal note I really don't get all the looking back with rose tinted specs at the aircooled cars and older water cooled (albeit the latter to a much lesser degree) either. Yes some of the air cooled cars look beautiful - and sound good too - but I remember feeling distinctly underwhelmed by the way 993's drove when I went looking several years ago and bought a 996 in preference as it was a better drivers machine in my opinion. As to the prices being asked of some of them now - daft - they've just moved into the realm of being collector trinkets and not for drivers (in the main). Oh well - I'm sure none of this chimes with the PH mentality, but it's good that we don't all agree that its all bad news for modern Porsche's. Would anyone here really not be in anyway interested in for example a GT3/4 or 991 targa or a Boxster Spyder??
True, there have been some cars that were disappointing...I had a 991S for a couple of weeks and found it to be a bit iifeless with drab steering, but I do not know how we freeze development so that the edgy cars are manual,N/A, minimal nannies etc. Most of the manufacturers of performance cars such as Ferrari, BMW and so on have signed up for the turbo/dual clutch/multisensor car, and it is not clear to me what the market is for the stripped down raw car.
For real track people there are great cars such as Radical,Caterham and so on which preserve the essence of a pure track car.
However, Porsche road cars are dual purpose with a varying degree of track focus depending on the model. My own sense is that they are plenty of fun to drive. I have not comment on the new RS until I track it in September, but for me, a reasonably civilized road car that will perform properly on a track is just fine. I do not need to have a car to track focused as to require earplugs and a full race harness. Maybe I am a granny after all, but I have no doubt that the car will perform beyond my own driving talents, just as the did the cars that preceded it.
Porsche represents progress and their cars are undoubtedly a technical tour de force. You can now have a reliable, comfortable, safe, sporty GT car in one package.
But the cars have moved away from pure sports car.
That's ok though, because progress has left us with the latest from Lotus, Caterham, Zenos, Ginetta, BAC, Radical, Morgan and yes, the Japanese.
Choose your priorities; driving or transportation.
But the cars have moved away from pure sports car.
That's ok though, because progress has left us with the latest from Lotus, Caterham, Zenos, Ginetta, BAC, Radical, Morgan and yes, the Japanese.
Choose your priorities; driving or transportation.
monthefish said:
the article said:
And what else was Porsche going to do? Proudly exclaim that its new 911 is slower, heavier, uglier, thirstier and more prone to catastrophic engine failures than the last one? Some may argue that was the case with the 996 but
No-one would argue that the 996 was slower or thirstier than the last one as it simply isn't true. Not sure about weight.Uglier is entirely subjective and could easily be said for many generations (993 was definitely uglier than 964), but I personally prefer 996 to 993.
Happyjap said:
Moonhawk said:
I 'get it' perfectly, however I have yet to drive a Porsche I have liked and I have driven a few over the past 10 years or so.
Yet to drive a Porsche you like? I question if possibly you were in an accident and suffered brain damage (this is just my banter do not be offended) a Porsche is like a extremely beautiful woman you have in bed with you, even if she lays there like a carp doing nothing, just enjoy the experience and if you like the comfort of your fat ugly wife better , then you can enjoy her for rest of your life but for now take in the beauty that God has given you, have your way and stop complaining her hip bones are digging into you!
te to drive though compared to the other cars I drove on the same day (Audi R8 V10 and V8 Vantage 4.7). Both cars blew the Porsche away in looks, handling, sound and just the general "feel good" factor.I have also driven a Carrera back to back with the Ferrari 360 and a Boxter back to back with the Nissan 350Z. In both cases the Porsche was sorely lacking. Sorry if you are a fan - but I just can't seem to get along with them.
My wife was a lifelong Porsche fan and always wanted one - until she finally got the chance to drive one and was instantly turned off. Perhaps they are a marmite car maker - you either love them or hate them.
Edited by Moonhawk on Sunday 24th May 22:25
Whilst i respect that the authur, like everyone is entitled to his own opinion - i fully disagree.
IMO the authur is after a classic, and any criticism that current Porsches are "too good" is just a by product of the modern times. Porsches have always been amongst the best cars on the market. The second they stop doing that, they lose everything they have and just become bling.
Loads of people look back at e.g the 964 RS lightweight with huge rose tinted glasses and think that's driving nirvana. The 964 RS is a terrible road car, and an only lightly less worse track car. That it was amongst the pick of the bunch in 1990 only goes to prove how bad it's peers were, rather than how good it is now. That it's commanding the price of 5 good 996's is madness, IMO...
IMO the authur is after a classic, and any criticism that current Porsches are "too good" is just a by product of the modern times. Porsches have always been amongst the best cars on the market. The second they stop doing that, they lose everything they have and just become bling.
Loads of people look back at e.g the 964 RS lightweight with huge rose tinted glasses and think that's driving nirvana. The 964 RS is a terrible road car, and an only lightly less worse track car. That it was amongst the pick of the bunch in 1990 only goes to prove how bad it's peers were, rather than how good it is now. That it's commanding the price of 5 good 996's is madness, IMO...
SirSquidalot said:
It's sad to see this from Porsche but the cars have become too capable, they are too fast for the road and only really come alive on circuit. We need less power, less weight and less tyre!
This is true of all modern performance cars... Hell, it's true of a lot of family 4 door saloons!This isn't what is wrong with Porsche, it is what is wrong with cars in general.
Every new product the numbers must get bigger (or smaller, as appropriate), because bigger numbers are an easy sales and marketing device, regardless of whether in the case of performance cars they make it more enjoyable.
Personally given up on chasing big numbers in my cars, so quite happy with my S1 Elise for fun and 100bhp Fiesta Zetec-S for daily use. Both fun little cars which are relatively simple and enjoyed at none license losing speeds.
Every new product the numbers must get bigger (or smaller, as appropriate), because bigger numbers are an easy sales and marketing device, regardless of whether in the case of performance cars they make it more enjoyable.
Personally given up on chasing big numbers in my cars, so quite happy with my S1 Elise for fun and 100bhp Fiesta Zetec-S for daily use. Both fun little cars which are relatively simple and enjoyed at none license losing speeds.
Edited by Thorburn on Monday 25th May 01:00
kambites said:
Porsche know what they're doing when it comes to selling the things. Ultimately, Porsche are producing the cars the market wants, the fact that those aren't what a few of us consider "traditional driver's cars" is hardly their fault; Lotus make them and look at their sales figures.
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