RE: The problem with Porsches: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
In the nicest possible way Dan - I think you need to get a grip and be grateful that Porsche still makes some of the most exciting and desirable sportscars available today!
Like all manufacturers Porsche has had to continuously improve its cars not only in line with what people now expect from modern cars in terms of ride comfort, technology and overall quality, but they have also had to operate within the limits of increasingly strict safety and environmental requirements which have surely had a very significant bearing on how these cars are constucted, how heavy they need to be, and what tolerances they have to incorporate. They have to do all this, AND deliver a uniquely Porsche drive, and at the same time turn a profit - lest we forget Porsche wasn't that far from disappearing altogether in the '90s!
Yes the quest for ever geater performance has in some cases meant excitement/involvement at road speeds comes second in the order of priorities, but Porsche know their customers extremely well, and while the mainstream Carreras have moved inexorably further towards being GT cars, I'd argue it's enthusiasts' cars like the GT3 & GT4 that show Porsche is listening to people who value ultimate driver involvement above all else - and yes that includes the PDK in the GT3! ;-)
Like all manufacturers Porsche has had to continuously improve its cars not only in line with what people now expect from modern cars in terms of ride comfort, technology and overall quality, but they have also had to operate within the limits of increasingly strict safety and environmental requirements which have surely had a very significant bearing on how these cars are constucted, how heavy they need to be, and what tolerances they have to incorporate. They have to do all this, AND deliver a uniquely Porsche drive, and at the same time turn a profit - lest we forget Porsche wasn't that far from disappearing altogether in the '90s!
Yes the quest for ever geater performance has in some cases meant excitement/involvement at road speeds comes second in the order of priorities, but Porsche know their customers extremely well, and while the mainstream Carreras have moved inexorably further towards being GT cars, I'd argue it's enthusiasts' cars like the GT3 & GT4 that show Porsche is listening to people who value ultimate driver involvement above all else - and yes that includes the PDK in the GT3! ;-)
Edited by Fl0pp3r on Monday 25th May 01:53
Not so long ago, I had the opportunity to drive all of the current 911 991 range at the Porsche track at Silverstone. A superb day. I concluded the following three things:-
1. PDK is the way to go for every day driving - the manual gearbox is just too much like hard work for every day.
2. 4WD gives reassurance if things go tits up - the 2S feels fabulous on the road, but on the skid pan the difference between a 4S and 2S is stark. You can get out of trouble in a 4WD 911 if you suddenly hit a wet/oily/icy patch.
3. The Turbo S is a sublime car - this is the best car I have ever driven. It is supercar fast, easy to get out of trouble and you can use it everyday. I can't think of another car that ticks all the boxes like the Turbo S does.
So the problem for me is that I have driven the 991 Turbo S - and now every other 911 falls short, by a country mile.
The other issue of course, is finding circa £150K to get one!
1. PDK is the way to go for every day driving - the manual gearbox is just too much like hard work for every day.
2. 4WD gives reassurance if things go tits up - the 2S feels fabulous on the road, but on the skid pan the difference between a 4S and 2S is stark. You can get out of trouble in a 4WD 911 if you suddenly hit a wet/oily/icy patch.
3. The Turbo S is a sublime car - this is the best car I have ever driven. It is supercar fast, easy to get out of trouble and you can use it everyday. I can't think of another car that ticks all the boxes like the Turbo S does.
So the problem for me is that I have driven the 991 Turbo S - and now every other 911 falls short, by a country mile.
The other issue of course, is finding circa £150K to get one!
I gave up wanting the ultimate lap time car when I gave up driving Brabham Repco F1s. Porsche have never appealed to me since the days when they went, sounded & even looked rather like a VW beetle, but that is just bias.
I know they are hugely competent cars today, & I agree perhaps too competent. When I go on a club run in the ranges, it is not the highly developed 330 BHP TR8 or the S2000 I reach for, but the stockish TR7.
In it I will have to drive moderately hard to keep up with our quicker drivers, where the other 2 I will either run away, or be loafing along getting bored. One of the more competent Porches would be even more boring.
In the 60s I drove everywhere at 8/9 tenths, & it was fun. Then I got the Morgan +4, & after a bit of development, anything over 7 tenths was too quick for public roads. Today with modern tyres, even shopping trolleys are getting too quick to be fun without venturing way into licence threatening territory.
If you want real fun, jump into a 50s MG TF, or an XK 120 Jag. You will feel like the new Fangio, at speeds so slow you won't lose your licence if some man in blue sees you.
Yes that is the modern Porsche problem.
I know they are hugely competent cars today, & I agree perhaps too competent. When I go on a club run in the ranges, it is not the highly developed 330 BHP TR8 or the S2000 I reach for, but the stockish TR7.
In it I will have to drive moderately hard to keep up with our quicker drivers, where the other 2 I will either run away, or be loafing along getting bored. One of the more competent Porches would be even more boring.
In the 60s I drove everywhere at 8/9 tenths, & it was fun. Then I got the Morgan +4, & after a bit of development, anything over 7 tenths was too quick for public roads. Today with modern tyres, even shopping trolleys are getting too quick to be fun without venturing way into licence threatening territory.
If you want real fun, jump into a 50s MG TF, or an XK 120 Jag. You will feel like the new Fangio, at speeds so slow you won't lose your licence if some man in blue sees you.
Yes that is the modern Porsche problem.
I've said it before, although probably elsewhere. Modern cars are over-tyred and have substituted handling for grip. problem is, with good handling you don't need fat tyres. Look at the Toyabaru GT-86 thingy. It has relatively small wheels, both in width and overall diameter yet all the Journos loved it. I have an old Escort 1.6 that 'only' ran 185's. It handled great believe it or not.
Should I ever get the chance to try a modern Porsche I will let you know what I thought.
Should I ever get the chance to try a modern Porsche I will let you know what I thought.
I don't know why people who complain about competency and the lack of character don't just undertake a bespoke build.
There is no shortage of talent, price point is more reasonable in Germany (along with parts) and you won't spend more than a 2.7 Cayman 981 off the dealer lot.
Porsche is a broad church and you can find your own fun in it somewhere.
There is no shortage of talent, price point is more reasonable in Germany (along with parts) and you won't spend more than a 2.7 Cayman 981 off the dealer lot.
Porsche is a broad church and you can find your own fun in it somewhere.
Yes cars are getting way too modern and competent...
Had an old 911 3.2 carerra a while back 1983 vintage - fuel injected and that was about the extent of modern nicities. 231hp driving through the rear wheels no ABS no power steering no traction and no stability. That car was probably up there as one of the best to drive as you had to drive it, the car was dumb it had no brains or skill it was dependant on the driver learning it and getting the best from it.
Had a couple of moments in it that really scared the bejezzuz out of me but the number of times that it made you feel good outnumbered those scares. You had to drive it you had to deal with the way that it handled and understood its dynamics. Now adays you have a car that bleeps at you if you get too close to the car behind when reversing, A car that takes control from you and stops it locking up when hard braking or steps in and adjusts the traction and slip when cornering, is that progress ? yes by all means it is as it increases your rate of progress and you get to your destination quicker. but it anethsitises the experiance you get out at the other side and feel that well that you were detached and not as involved as what you were with an older car.
Is that what you want ? or are we a minority when it comes to those that buy cars, the ones that dont really care for a challenging drive and just want the kludos of doing 170 on the autobhan and having something sat on the drive that looks good.
I did take the porsche to over 150 once and it felt raw and dangerous - the front was light and the rear felt that it was digging in and another time in the highlands was lucky if I got it into fourth as we were having fun on a really good road that couldnt be driven fast but it did test the cars mettle with the cambers and corners. after that run sat having a coffee and was left thinking damn that was good that was special and that was more importantly fun. It felt hard and it felt that if you got it wrong then it would have gone wrong, but you didnt you get the car working with you and it sorta wrapped itself around you.
Had an old 911 3.2 carerra a while back 1983 vintage - fuel injected and that was about the extent of modern nicities. 231hp driving through the rear wheels no ABS no power steering no traction and no stability. That car was probably up there as one of the best to drive as you had to drive it, the car was dumb it had no brains or skill it was dependant on the driver learning it and getting the best from it.
Had a couple of moments in it that really scared the bejezzuz out of me but the number of times that it made you feel good outnumbered those scares. You had to drive it you had to deal with the way that it handled and understood its dynamics. Now adays you have a car that bleeps at you if you get too close to the car behind when reversing, A car that takes control from you and stops it locking up when hard braking or steps in and adjusts the traction and slip when cornering, is that progress ? yes by all means it is as it increases your rate of progress and you get to your destination quicker. but it anethsitises the experiance you get out at the other side and feel that well that you were detached and not as involved as what you were with an older car.
Is that what you want ? or are we a minority when it comes to those that buy cars, the ones that dont really care for a challenging drive and just want the kludos of doing 170 on the autobhan and having something sat on the drive that looks good.
I did take the porsche to over 150 once and it felt raw and dangerous - the front was light and the rear felt that it was digging in and another time in the highlands was lucky if I got it into fourth as we were having fun on a really good road that couldnt be driven fast but it did test the cars mettle with the cambers and corners. after that run sat having a coffee and was left thinking damn that was good that was special and that was more importantly fun. It felt hard and it felt that if you got it wrong then it would have gone wrong, but you didnt you get the car working with you and it sorta wrapped itself around you.
It's interesting to see the divide in opinions.
I apologise in advance if my word choice implies a bias, but it seems to me that the common interest in sports cars is becoming lesd and less between 2 camps of drivers and manufacturers have to choose a side.
For everyone complaining that the modern Porsche is dull to drive, there is someone whi genuinely likes the fact that the car is easy to drive and does everything for you.
For a long time recently Porsche has had a reputation for being easy to live with. Everyone likes it when their chosen brand is viewed with favour and few have voiced counter opinions to state that Porsches need TLC or need to be driven with respect but are exciting for it. As a result, the reputation for being benign everyday cars that happen to look and go fast gathers momentum.
The demographic of buyers shift and people buy Porsches who know they simply couldn't be bothered with more visceral sports cars that offer (and demand) more driver engagement.
As far as the purist goes, Porsche has become a victim of its own success because so many buyers simply don't want to have to actually drive the car. They just want something sporty looking and quick to stooge about in, put petrol in and forget about when they park it.
I apologise in advance if my word choice implies a bias, but it seems to me that the common interest in sports cars is becoming lesd and less between 2 camps of drivers and manufacturers have to choose a side.
For everyone complaining that the modern Porsche is dull to drive, there is someone whi genuinely likes the fact that the car is easy to drive and does everything for you.
For a long time recently Porsche has had a reputation for being easy to live with. Everyone likes it when their chosen brand is viewed with favour and few have voiced counter opinions to state that Porsches need TLC or need to be driven with respect but are exciting for it. As a result, the reputation for being benign everyday cars that happen to look and go fast gathers momentum.
The demographic of buyers shift and people buy Porsches who know they simply couldn't be bothered with more visceral sports cars that offer (and demand) more driver engagement.
As far as the purist goes, Porsche has become a victim of its own success because so many buyers simply don't want to have to actually drive the car. They just want something sporty looking and quick to stooge about in, put petrol in and forget about when they park it.
Must admit I'm struggling a little with how some people can say that Porsche's are rubbish and don't handle well - it makes me query their driving credentials and capabilities more than it does Porsche's engineering ability quite honestly as I know when I had my Boxster I was most definitely the weakest link in the chain between the car and the road.
If you don't like the cars that's fair enough, there are cars I don't like (but have never been fortunate enough to do more than look at) but not liking isn't the same as the vehicle itself not being capable.
If you don't like the cars that's fair enough, there are cars I don't like (but have never been fortunate enough to do more than look at) but not liking isn't the same as the vehicle itself not being capable.
As long as it's a numbers game... like with any other consumer product... this is the way things will go.
Not all that long ago the Sierra Cosworth's 200 bhp was considered stratospheric for something that did not generally come in red and cost as much as a house.
My Porsche 944 was supposed to have around 160bhp, but in reality had less, yet it was still considered "fast".
Nowadays, a diesel midrange saloon is almost obliged to sport this 200 BHP figure, or be termed "gutless".
Today's fast saloons put out 400, even 500 bhp.
Certainly some of that output is soaked up in the extra weight. We are, generally, driving one and a half cars nowadays.
But the main thing is - no manufacturer can offer an updated model offering smaller numbers than the current one.
Larger numbers mean that the cars have to tame that power somehow. The Cossie's "miserable" 200bhp led to so many of them being totalled, just imagine 500 horses in the same shell being driven by what most of us honestly are - totally incompetent in comparison to any of those very few persons whose day job is driving fast cars, fast.
So gizmos, driver aids, etc so that the drive is even less exciting than in a vehicle with one quarter the power but none of the gadgets, where, for example, maintaining velocity is even more important than gaining it.
Porsche, like everyone else, is simply giving us more of what we THINK we want.
Not all that long ago the Sierra Cosworth's 200 bhp was considered stratospheric for something that did not generally come in red and cost as much as a house.
My Porsche 944 was supposed to have around 160bhp, but in reality had less, yet it was still considered "fast".
Nowadays, a diesel midrange saloon is almost obliged to sport this 200 BHP figure, or be termed "gutless".
Today's fast saloons put out 400, even 500 bhp.
Certainly some of that output is soaked up in the extra weight. We are, generally, driving one and a half cars nowadays.
But the main thing is - no manufacturer can offer an updated model offering smaller numbers than the current one.
Larger numbers mean that the cars have to tame that power somehow. The Cossie's "miserable" 200bhp led to so many of them being totalled, just imagine 500 horses in the same shell being driven by what most of us honestly are - totally incompetent in comparison to any of those very few persons whose day job is driving fast cars, fast.
So gizmos, driver aids, etc so that the drive is even less exciting than in a vehicle with one quarter the power but none of the gadgets, where, for example, maintaining velocity is even more important than gaining it.
Porsche, like everyone else, is simply giving us more of what we THINK we want.
[quote=Thorburn]This isn't what is wrong with Porsche, it is what is wrong with cars in general.
+1
I found this changing from BMW E90 to F30. The cars limits get higher but the feeling of mechanical connection diminishes. The driver has to push harder into law breaking territory to find the same level of enjoyment.
+1
I found this changing from BMW E90 to F30. The cars limits get higher but the feeling of mechanical connection diminishes. The driver has to push harder into law breaking territory to find the same level of enjoyment.
jamieduff1981 said:
It's interesting to see the divide in opinions.
I apologise in advance if my word choice implies a bias, but it seems to me that the common interest in sports cars is becoming lesd and less between 2 camps of drivers and manufacturers have to choose a side.
For everyone complaining that the modern Porsche is dull to drive, there is someone whi genuinely likes the fact that the car is easy to drive and does everything for you.
For a long time recently Porsche has had a reputation for being easy to live with. Everyone likes it when their chosen brand is viewed with favour and few have voiced counter opinions to state that Porsches need TLC or need to be driven with respect but are exciting for it. As a result, the reputation for being benign everyday cars that happen to look and go fast gathers momentum.
The demographic of buyers shift and people buy Porsches who know they simply couldn't be bothered with more visceral sports cars that offer (and demand) more driver engagement.
As far as the purist goes, Porsche has become a victim of its own success because so many buyers simply don't want to have to actually drive the car. They just want something sporty looking and quick to stooge about in, put petrol in and forget about when they park it.
It's hard to disagree with any of this, but I'm not sure it's quite the point...I apologise in advance if my word choice implies a bias, but it seems to me that the common interest in sports cars is becoming lesd and less between 2 camps of drivers and manufacturers have to choose a side.
For everyone complaining that the modern Porsche is dull to drive, there is someone whi genuinely likes the fact that the car is easy to drive and does everything for you.
For a long time recently Porsche has had a reputation for being easy to live with. Everyone likes it when their chosen brand is viewed with favour and few have voiced counter opinions to state that Porsches need TLC or need to be driven with respect but are exciting for it. As a result, the reputation for being benign everyday cars that happen to look and go fast gathers momentum.
The demographic of buyers shift and people buy Porsches who know they simply couldn't be bothered with more visceral sports cars that offer (and demand) more driver engagement.
As far as the purist goes, Porsche has become a victim of its own success because so many buyers simply don't want to have to actually drive the car. They just want something sporty looking and quick to stooge about in, put petrol in and forget about when they park it.
If you go and drive a 3.2 carrera from 85 you'll find a car that's easy to drive, easy to see out of, easy to live with everyday - Porsche might be adjusting to market demands, but I'm not sure it really needed to. I think the blandness will come back to haunt them - I know a lot of people including myself who have owned and lived with Porsches - people who owned them because of the balance between special and everyday - no one is interested in the 991. The unique experience and layout used to make it desirable. Now I'd just have a Cayman. Or a 356.
ruggedscotty said:
Yes cars are getting way too modern and competent...
Had an old 911 3.2 carerra a while back 1983 vintage - fuel injected and that was about the extent of modern nicities. 231hp driving through the rear wheels no ABS no power steering no traction and no stability. That car was probably up there as one of the best to drive as you had to drive it, the car was dumb it had no brains or skill it was dependant on the driver learning it and getting the best from it.
Had a couple of moments in it that really scared the bejezzuz out of me but the number of times that it made you feel good outnumbered those scares. You had to drive it you had to deal with the way that it handled and understood its dynamics. Now adays you have a car that bleeps at you if you get too close to the car behind when reversing, A car that takes control from you and stops it locking up when hard braking or steps in and adjusts the traction and slip when cornering, is that progress ? yes by all means it is as it increases your rate of progress and you get to your destination quicker. but it anethsitises the experiance you get out at the other side and feel that well that you were detached and not as involved as what you were with an older car.
Is that what you want ? or are we a minority when it comes to those that buy cars, the ones that dont really care for a challenging drive and just want the kludos of doing 170 on the autobhan and having something sat on the drive that looks good.
I did take the porsche to over 150 once and it felt raw and dangerous - the front was light and the rear felt that it was digging in and another time in the highlands was lucky if I got it into fourth as we were having fun on a really good road that couldnt be driven fast but it did test the cars mettle with the cambers and corners. after that run sat having a coffee and was left thinking damn that was good that was special and that was more importantly fun. It felt hard and it felt that if you got it wrong then it would have gone wrong, but you didnt you get the car working with you and it sorta wrapped itself around you.
I briefly had a late vintage 3.2 which was a fantastic experience. Very stable at over 160 on way down to Monaco (those were the days!) and great on the F1 circuit sunday evening (not sure they allow that anymore?)Had an old 911 3.2 carerra a while back 1983 vintage - fuel injected and that was about the extent of modern nicities. 231hp driving through the rear wheels no ABS no power steering no traction and no stability. That car was probably up there as one of the best to drive as you had to drive it, the car was dumb it had no brains or skill it was dependant on the driver learning it and getting the best from it.
Had a couple of moments in it that really scared the bejezzuz out of me but the number of times that it made you feel good outnumbered those scares. You had to drive it you had to deal with the way that it handled and understood its dynamics. Now adays you have a car that bleeps at you if you get too close to the car behind when reversing, A car that takes control from you and stops it locking up when hard braking or steps in and adjusts the traction and slip when cornering, is that progress ? yes by all means it is as it increases your rate of progress and you get to your destination quicker. but it anethsitises the experiance you get out at the other side and feel that well that you were detached and not as involved as what you were with an older car.
Is that what you want ? or are we a minority when it comes to those that buy cars, the ones that dont really care for a challenging drive and just want the kludos of doing 170 on the autobhan and having something sat on the drive that looks good.
I did take the porsche to over 150 once and it felt raw and dangerous - the front was light and the rear felt that it was digging in and another time in the highlands was lucky if I got it into fourth as we were having fun on a really good road that couldnt be driven fast but it did test the cars mettle with the cambers and corners. after that run sat having a coffee and was left thinking damn that was good that was special and that was more importantly fun. It felt hard and it felt that if you got it wrong then it would have gone wrong, but you didnt you get the car working with you and it sorta wrapped itself around you.
Driver's cars because YOU were in control and it gave constant feedback through the wheel and seat.
GT86 kind of shows that driving itself is not the main requirement thesedays.
Dan is absolutely correct, driving a modern porsche on the street feels very much like any other high end vag car. Good for me that old cars still exist for me to actually have fun behind the wheel.
I took my brother out for a track day in my modded 924 turbo as a graduation gift. He enjoyed it alot, had loads of fun with both sliding and sweating (28degc in thr air)
The week after he got to borrow a 991 pdk 50jahre for a week. He came back to me so surprised that the modern porsche was so ordinary to drive compared to my old car. Hes not at all a car guy, but thought it was amusing he realized it so quickly
I took my brother out for a track day in my modded 924 turbo as a graduation gift. He enjoyed it alot, had loads of fun with both sliding and sweating (28degc in thr air)
The week after he got to borrow a 991 pdk 50jahre for a week. He came back to me so surprised that the modern porsche was so ordinary to drive compared to my old car. Hes not at all a car guy, but thought it was amusing he realized it so quickly
I think you're wrong. The problem is that Porsche don't exist in a market by themselves. Their competitors make their cars faster, so Porsche has to keep up too! If you had a 997 generation car and the new 991 came out and the salesman said this car is slightly slower than yours in terms of acceleration, top speed and its 'ring time but don't worry it has more feel and is completely focused on driver feedback. I'm not sure many people would go for that, despite what you might read on PH.
Also modern cars are just too fast to enjoy on the road anyway. I took my Cayman R around Bedford on Saturday. It was a lot of fun - chassis, engine, steering - all giving tons of feedback. It was a delightful immersive experience, but there's no way I could drive like that on the road, it would be far too dangerous. So pretty much any fast, moden car can only really be enjoyed on track in any case.
Also modern cars are just too fast to enjoy on the road anyway. I took my Cayman R around Bedford on Saturday. It was a lot of fun - chassis, engine, steering - all giving tons of feedback. It was a delightful immersive experience, but there's no way I could drive like that on the road, it would be far too dangerous. So pretty much any fast, moden car can only really be enjoyed on track in any case.
Sadly you are spot on modern Porsches feel sanitised and soul less, except maybe hardcore variants, they are wide bulbous and very Audi/ Bmw in their looks and driving.
And yes I have driven the991 variants and found them benign, it's little wonder that early models and now the 996 and 997 987 boxsters are becoming sought after, it will only get worse in this crazy green Eco warrior safety conscious boring sanitised electronic horrible world in which we now reside, I am so glad that I have been a child of the sixties they and the seventies were the golden years, I shall keep my 360 manual and my manual boxsters s , I simply do not want anything else, Mike
And yes I have driven the991 variants and found them benign, it's little wonder that early models and now the 996 and 997 987 boxsters are becoming sought after, it will only get worse in this crazy green Eco warrior safety conscious boring sanitised electronic horrible world in which we now reside, I am so glad that I have been a child of the sixties they and the seventies were the golden years, I shall keep my 360 manual and my manual boxsters s , I simply do not want anything else, Mike
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