RE: The problem with Porsches: Tell Me I'm Wrong
Discussion
My 997.1 Turbo was probably the best car I've ever owned, using objective measures. I doubt I'll ever have a faster-accelerating car for real world use. That said, I'm enjoying my GranTurismo more. It's slower, handles like a truffle-pig in comparison and drinks fuel. Somehow though, I just feel happier when I'm I it , compared to the Porker.
Thorburn said:
This isn't what is wrong with Porsche, it is what is wrong with cars in general.
Every new product the numbers must get bigger (or smaller, as appropriate), because bigger numbers are an easy sales and marketing device, regardless of whether in the case of performance cars they make it more enjoyable.
Personally given up on chasing big numbers in my cars, so quite happy with my S1 Elise for fun and 100bhp Fiesta Zetec-S for daily use. Both fun little cars which are relatively simple and enjoyed at none license losing speeds.
It's the old argument of whether it's better to drive a slow car 'fast' or a fast car 'slow'. Personally I think it's better to drive a slow car 'fast', as it requires some skill. With fast car 'slow', you need no skill. Depends on the car though. Personally I'll take better feeling driver controls, a keen engine and well controlled chassis over a fast car with problems in any of those areas.Every new product the numbers must get bigger (or smaller, as appropriate), because bigger numbers are an easy sales and marketing device, regardless of whether in the case of performance cars they make it more enjoyable.
Personally given up on chasing big numbers in my cars, so quite happy with my S1 Elise for fun and 100bhp Fiesta Zetec-S for daily use. Both fun little cars which are relatively simple and enjoyed at none license losing speeds.
Edited by Thorburn on Monday 25th May 01:00
I also am a fan of the 1.6 Fiesta models of that generation. The 1.6 has just enough pace, all the controls feel good and the 1.6 is keener than the slightly lazy 1.25 or very lazy 1.4.
Driving a modern Peugeot 208 with the 1.2 three cylinder and the basic chassis, engine and seats are good. However the steering, clutch, brakes, accelerator and shifter all feel bad, with the clutch being the worst in the world. Really. It's basic stuff like this that frustrates or delights a driver.
Back on topic:
Porsche bringing back the 912 isn't a bad idea, but I have a feeling they won't or we'd have heard about it. I think if they did it the best idea would be to use a VW Gti PP engine, with a simplified Cayman interior and chassis.
iloveboost said:
I also am a fan of the 1.6 Fiesta models of that generation. The 1.6 has just enough pace, all the controls feel good and the 1.6 is keener than the slightly lazy 1.25 or very lazy 1.4.
My wife has a 1.4 Ghia, which replaced her 1.25 Zetec before that. The 1.25 was slow, but great fun to drive fast as you constantly just ragged it. The 1.4 is a terrible engine though, gains a whole 3bhp and feels like it doesn't want to rev at all.Ford do have a real knack for making regular cars that are really good to drive though.
Does no one actually enjoy changing gear any more?
I can see the point of going semi-auto/auto on a daily driver where you are commuting in it, but when out and driving for pleasure I've found learning to heel and toe and executing downshifts under braking has been intensely satisfying - being without a traditional manual feels like cheating.
I can see the point of going semi-auto/auto on a daily driver where you are commuting in it, but when out and driving for pleasure I've found learning to heel and toe and executing downshifts under braking has been intensely satisfying - being without a traditional manual feels like cheating.
In some ways I agree with the article. Over the past 6 months I've been searching for a new car around the £60k mark. I've driven used astons, 911, Cayman, R8, F type etc and yes the Porsche are good cars but I just found them a bit mundane. I agree that they are too good in terms of comfort and not emotion.
In the end I ordered a new lotus Exige V6 because it's a worse car. Yes it's noisier, yes it's less comfortable on long trips, yes it's more difficult to get in but all that adds up to a more exciting experience. £60k was a lot of money to me but I enjoy cars and I wanted something that more than anything else made me feel special when I drive it, the Porsches simply didn't do that. To me modern Porsches feel to be getting closer to bmw/Audi Type comfortable cruisers rather than the true sports cars the should be.
I'm sure the current GT3, GT3RS do feel more special and more like a sports car but most average people can't afford to get in one especially with the used market the way it is at the minute.
In the end I ordered a new lotus Exige V6 because it's a worse car. Yes it's noisier, yes it's less comfortable on long trips, yes it's more difficult to get in but all that adds up to a more exciting experience. £60k was a lot of money to me but I enjoy cars and I wanted something that more than anything else made me feel special when I drive it, the Porsches simply didn't do that. To me modern Porsches feel to be getting closer to bmw/Audi Type comfortable cruisers rather than the true sports cars the should be.
I'm sure the current GT3, GT3RS do feel more special and more like a sports car but most average people can't afford to get in one especially with the used market the way it is at the minute.
While I generally agree with the mantra that cars are becoming.. ''too polished'' for want of a better phrase - I don't necesarily agree that they're too accomplished for their own good - to the contrary, I think that the modern performance car is at a stage where it needs to deliver certain levels of quality. Just look at the standards set by hot hatches that used to be 'triers'. The performance in terms of both straight line and handling is at such a high standard at the lower price brackets that sports cars have to be evermore cutting edge chasing bigger figures, faster times etc. This in turn means that they are costing ever more and for that cost a certain degree of all round performance and my cock is bigger than yours comes with the price bracket. It also means that cheaper 'quirky' handling cars have established a market of their own a la gt-brz and mx5's of the world that may have once been closer to more serious cars price wise. EG the cayman mk1 ranged from 35-55k. Now? 45 - 65 and beyond.. Meanwhile the mx5 has gone from costing up to 25k in 2005 to 24k.
I think it's important to realise that cars like the elise and 4c aren't necesarily in demand because things like the Porsche are too precise or focus; but are in demand because of the hole in the market created by the increasing unobtanium-ness created for the ever competitive and expensive sports car segment..
I think it's important to realise that cars like the elise and 4c aren't necesarily in demand because things like the Porsche are too precise or focus; but are in demand because of the hole in the market created by the increasing unobtanium-ness created for the ever competitive and expensive sports car segment..
Well, all cars are so much better in pretty much every way than older ones. And please, the automatic transmissions are SO much better than the manuals nowadays, even my Formula Renault race car, built in 2000, has semi-automatic. The 20" wheels though have to go. They make cars look like California pimpmobiles.
The 4C with an autobox, turbo engine, massive tyres and a 4 second 0-60 time? Hardly a return to old school sports car ethos and usable performance.
It's a strange decision to single out a Porsche in this regard given that their cars are lighter, more feelsome and slower than most of the direct competition from Merc, BMW, Audi etc.
It's a strange decision to single out a Porsche in this regard given that their cars are lighter, more feelsome and slower than most of the direct competition from Merc, BMW, Audi etc.
Thorburn said:
Does no one actually enjoy changing gear any more?
I can see the point of going semi-auto/auto on a daily driver where you are commuting in it, but when out and driving for pleasure I've found learning to heel and toe and executing downshifts under braking has been intensely satisfying - being without a traditional manual feels like cheating.
I enjoy changing gears of course and will hang onto one manual car. Yet, it is basically like fly fishing, a great skill without any practical result. People will always want to develop skills even if there is no practical result. In the long run, manual will be relegated to antique cars, just as skills like double declutching, using a choke and so on are no longer required. Certainly it is satisfying, People like to hang onto skills they have developed.I can see the point of going semi-auto/auto on a daily driver where you are commuting in it, but when out and driving for pleasure I've found learning to heel and toe and executing downshifts under braking has been intensely satisfying - being without a traditional manual feels like cheating.
I once saw a magazine called "Handloader Quarterly" in the US. Yes, there are people who, with great skill, load their own ammunition. I assume it is more satisfying than buying commercial.
The good news is that there are great numbers of manual cars, including endless numbers of Porsches on the market at any time.
Clearly the manual has had no place in competitive professional driving for some time, so the old view that competition is where technology is first developed is true. Further, with almost every manufacturer dropping manual at the top end, it will gradually become a fun thing at the mid range for some time to come. However, as today's range of younger drivers aspire to faster and better-performing cars as they become better off financially, they will find that the entire world of top-end cars is entirely some form of sequential. Look at the normal top 3 right now...McLaren P1,Porsche 918,LaFerrari and so on, and you have a glimpse of the future.
I have no regrets about having a 991 RS on order. I know how to use a shift properly already so no opportunity loss there. Understand the skills point of view, but life moves on.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
There are some cars which genuinely are fast, but also feel fast and are increasingly difficult to drive the faster you try to go.They can be the ideal weekend cars because you can drive them a distance if you take it easy or you can wear yourself out on a quick hoon should you wish. They usually come with other facets which make them harder to live with day to day, because they're the kind of car that demands attention at motorway speeds in the wet and many people grudge that when they're tired etc.
In my opinion the Nurburgring has a lot to answer for. It may very well be one of the best testing locations in Europe, the lap times may well mean a lot to the marketing departments at Porsche, Jaguar, Nissan etc but I really don't see the relevance to a road car which is likely to spend 95% or more of it's time on the road and possibly never venture on to track.
Most journo's will agree that the current BMW M3/M4 work brilliantly on track but less comfortable on the road. Wonder where they were developed...?
Most journo's will agree that the current BMW M3/M4 work brilliantly on track but less comfortable on the road. Wonder where they were developed...?
Well, all cars are so much better in pretty much every way than older ones. And please, the automatic transmissions are SO much better than the manuals nowadays, even my Formula Renault race car, built in 2000, has semi-automatic. The 20" wheels though have to go. They make cars look like California pimpmobiles.
RDMcG said:
I once saw a magazine called "Handloader Quarterly" in the US. Yes, there are people who, with great skill, load their own ammunition. I assume it is more satisfying than buying commercial.
Handloading is very, very big indeed. Apart from for reasons of cost, handloaded ammo is (or can be) far superior to factory ammunition, and if you are serious about target shooting you have absolutely no option. But yes "producing" something, just like growing your own vegetables, is also satisfying.Auto boxes or rather the robotised manual boxes are a manufacturers way to drill the driver out of the equation to try and reduce every little delay in that loved measurable that keeps getting quoted - 0-60.... and then traction and stability again configured to limit the delay that wheels spinning cause in getting to 60.
These days were getting figures down to the mid 3 second to 60 in some cars - all through electronic intervention. no skill involved and the car will do it time after time. where is the joy in that ?
there is nothing like properly driving a car - getting it right and that is what driving is all about if your a piston header.... however there are many more out there that have no interest in transmittions and engines and just want a car that goes fast with little or no effort - these people looking for those cars that will drive themselves the car looks nice on the drive and nothing else matters to them.
Me? Ill enjoy driving to the day I die - manual please and a car with a decent engine and handles well. its what I like and I hope im fortunate enough to be blessed with the ability to afford and to drive nice cars.
Washing them and waxing them cleaning them and generally tinkering about with them. a hobby if you will.
These days were getting figures down to the mid 3 second to 60 in some cars - all through electronic intervention. no skill involved and the car will do it time after time. where is the joy in that ?
there is nothing like properly driving a car - getting it right and that is what driving is all about if your a piston header.... however there are many more out there that have no interest in transmittions and engines and just want a car that goes fast with little or no effort - these people looking for those cars that will drive themselves the car looks nice on the drive and nothing else matters to them.
Me? Ill enjoy driving to the day I die - manual please and a car with a decent engine and handles well. its what I like and I hope im fortunate enough to be blessed with the ability to afford and to drive nice cars.
Washing them and waxing them cleaning them and generally tinkering about with them. a hobby if you will.
Orange Rocket said:
In my opinion the Nurburgring has a lot to answer for. It may very well be one of the best testing locations in Europe, the lap times may well mean a lot to the marketing departments at Porsche, Jaguar, Nissan etc but I really don't see the relevance to a road car which is likely to spend 95% or more of it's time on the road and possibly never venture on to track.
Most journo's will agree that the current BMW M3/M4 work brilliantly on track but less comfortable on the road. Wonder where they were developed...?
Again, we are down to numbers. Humans need quantifiable reference points. "Drives great" is subjective. 0-60 in 4 secs, 500bhp, or Ring in 8 minutes is or should be an absolute.Most journo's will agree that the current BMW M3/M4 work brilliantly on track but less comfortable on the road. Wonder where they were developed...?
The truth is, on a challenging road a half competent driver of a diesel Golf won't be far behind a supercar driven by the average driver.
The sad thing is as the generations move on people forget what feel really is in a car. I own a car that won many awards back in the 80s for its handling and feel, in race trim that multiplies it all again by a factor of 2 or 3. I also binned off the PAS at one point to save weight then had to have it back on as we were using slicks and I couldn't man handle the car when the loads kicked back. It wasn't until I went back to road legal tyres again and took the PAS back off I remembered just how much PAS robs a car of steering feel, and this is on a car 2x better than a great 80s/90s sports car even with the PAS. Its really quite something. 99.99% of the car buying public will never have that experience so will never be in a position to value it. We thought the past 30 years was a nirvana for the petrolhead with ever 'better' cars but all we have been doing is slowly killing the thing we love.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Near where I live you could easily do 130-ish on most straights if you use 175hp/ton. That's a really bad idea on the road. On a track obviously you want a high power to weight, as it makes boring straights shorter. Plus running a fast car costs £££ more a year, and you use far less of it's performance. Running a slow car saves £££ a year, and you use far more of the performance.
As Dacia say: 'you do the maths'. I say: I'm paying £7K for a Dacia, you do the b****y maths.
Edited by iloveboost on Monday 25th May 13:52
Not driven the earlier cars but as far back as the 996 and presumably beyond 911s were always about great traction out of corners with a heavy motor pushing down over wide rear tyres. If you want sideways fun at lower speeds you buy something with less traction like a M series bmw.
Most new buyers look at the figures and trade up rather than worrying about a slight loss of feel and interaction. I think most would agree we are past the point of peak handling delicacy and on road performance, probably a Lotus or Alfa from the late 60s
Most new buyers look at the figures and trade up rather than worrying about a slight loss of feel and interaction. I think most would agree we are past the point of peak handling delicacy and on road performance, probably a Lotus or Alfa from the late 60s
Edited by Crusoe on Monday 25th May 14:01
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