WHat will be the next big automotive merger??
Discussion
DukeDickson said:
Will never happen, but BMW & Honda (one way or another) is the obvious choice. !
They kind of both pitch to the same market IMO though, fairly premium, driver focused, quite individual image.Suprised BMW haven't been seduced by the VW model of buying a cheaper brand and creating a tech/platform sharing tier of market-segment focused cars.
There are several missing links in the chart too.. VW and merc commercial vehicles (sprinter/crafter) for one...
Bodo said:
I didn't recognize any interesting merger in the last few months, but things are moving nonetheless.
Is that an absolute 46.7% of shares, or in reality something more?- Renault-Nissan has had their dispute settled with more French government influence
- Apple is rumoured to work on building a car (as they have vacancies for automotive production engineers)
- Google works on a self-driving car
IIRC, the Ford family own a pretty risible, on the face of it, percentage of FoMoCo stock, but thanks to the structure, it may as well be 90% and some.
I would have thought that offering enough to break that family structure at BMW would take a big chunk out of Apple's cash pile and wouldn't do wonders for either. A strategic tie-up would sound better in the short term.
hairyben said:
DukeDickson said:
Will never happen, but BMW & Honda (one way or another) is the obvious choice. !
They kind of both pitch to the same market IMO though, fairly premium, driver focused, quite individual image.Suprised BMW haven't been seduced by the VW model of buying a cheaper brand and creating a tech/platform sharing tier of market-segment focused cars.
There are several missing links in the chart too.. VW and merc commercial vehicles (sprinter/crafter) for one...
The thing that stands out is that as is often the way, what works for one, doesn't work for another.
The automotive world is a better place for having BMW and Honda outside of the nastiest norms of big business and if they need to combine to be outside of that in the future, sounds OK to me.
Only now did we have the next biggest automotive OEM merger, which actually wasn't that big a merger: PSA and Opel/Vauxhall. So what are the predictions? Will they thrive like Skoda or Seat?
I'm just thinking - Jaguar, Volvo and Land Rover do well since they have been sold by Ford. Why shouldn't this also be the case for Opel and Vauxhall?
I'm just thinking - Jaguar, Volvo and Land Rover do well since they have been sold by Ford. Why shouldn't this also be the case for Opel and Vauxhall?
Bodo said:
Only now did we have the next biggest automotive OEM merger, which actually wasn't that big a merger: PSA and Opel/Vauxhall. So what are the predictions? Will they thrive like Skoda or Seat?
I'm just thinking - Jaguar, Volvo and Land Rover do well since they have been sold by Ford. Why shouldn't this also be the case for Opel and Vauxhall?
British people have a weird culture where they often take delight in their own (real or perceived) companies failing. The media and public at large, particularly Remoaners, are almost willing Vauxhall, the no.2 carmaker in the UK, to be closed down. It is bizarre ethnomasochism.I'm just thinking - Jaguar, Volvo and Land Rover do well since they have been sold by Ford. Why shouldn't this also be the case for Opel and Vauxhall?
Vauxhall (and Opel) will thrive if PSA can cut raise productivity and improve product quality with a sprinkling of French design. Vauxhall needs only a few SUVs / crossovers, sports cars and luxury saloons to plug the gaps in their portfolio, followed by more aspirational marketing (ditch the awful carpark-WiFi adverts). BMW managed it with Mini.
Of course, the big unknown is the French government, who ultimately control PSA. Are they going to get spiteful about Brexit and the harm done to their EU baby and force PSA to close or downsize Vauxhall out of spite. Unlikely, and a bit tinfoily, but not beyond the realms of possibility.
Yipper said:
Vauxhall (and Opel) will thrive if PSA can cut raise productivity and improve product quality with a sprinkling of French design. Vauxhall needs only a few SUVs / crossovers, sports cars and luxury saloons to plug the gaps in their portfolio, followed by more aspirational marketing (ditch the awful carpark-WiFi adverts). BMW managed it with Mini.
I don't see that hapoening. Effectively Vauxhall will become Peugeots in a different skin. So, ignoring price if you wanted a Peugeot, why buy a Vauxhall ? You wouldn't - its all about price.Vauxhalls are going to end being built out of the PSA parts bin and sold cheaply, they could even become PSA's Dacia? Either way I don't see Vauxhalls being 'improved'.
I don't think that anyone is more likely to buy a Vaxuhall now, just because PSA own them, possibly even the opposite. PSA can build more of the same bits, unit cost becomes lower, R&D cost lower, stack them high, sell them cheap.
Yipper said:
Vauxhall, the no.2 carmaker in the UK,
Im not sure that is correct. JLR, BMW, Honda, Nissan all manufacture far more than Opel do in the U.K.Vauxhall is essentially an importer, distributed, sales and finance company of Opel built products from the EU mainland. The small number of cars it does build in the U.K. is due to State subsidies and they are mostly exported.
Ellesmere Port employs 2000 State subsidised workers, the two core questions are how many UK people are engaged in supply the parts for that assembly plant or are all parts imported and how the number of employees compares to the number of employees in Vauxhalls key areas of business.
Vauxhall as people seem to love to think of it hasn't existed in decades. It's just a sticker on the back of a German car and the core business in the U.K. is sales.
You can talk about Remoaners but if you are a Brexiteer then why are you favouring British people buying non U.K. built cars and for all the revenue and profits to be being sucked out to the mainland? Surely you would want Vauxhall to go completely and for British people to buy British built cars like a Nissan?
A remainer would want to keep Vauxhall. A Brexiteer should want it gone.
Crafty_ said:
I don't see that hapoening. Effectively Vauxhall will become Peugeots in a different skin. So, ignoring price if you wanted a Peugeot, why buy a Vauxhall ? You wouldn't - its all about price.
Vauxhalls are going to end being built out of the PSA parts bin and sold cheaply, they could even become PSA's Dacia? Either way I don't see Vauxhalls being 'improved'.
I don't think that anyone is more likely to buy a Vaxuhall now, just because PSA own them, possibly even the opposite. PSA can build more of the same bits, unit cost becomes lower, R&D cost lower, stack them high, sell them cheap.
They will probably make the largest savings by merging the distribution network and the financing arms. On the manufacturing side you have to assume there will be tech share as there is with all brand conglomerates, as to whether this favours Opel or Peugeot is anyone's guess. Mine would be that this would be of benefit to PSA's existing brands as Opels are generally better. Vauxhalls are going to end being built out of the PSA parts bin and sold cheaply, they could even become PSA's Dacia? Either way I don't see Vauxhalls being 'improved'.
I don't think that anyone is more likely to buy a Vaxuhall now, just because PSA own them, possibly even the opposite. PSA can build more of the same bits, unit cost becomes lower, R&D cost lower, stack them high, sell them cheap.
There shouldn't be any real problems merging a predominantly French business with a German one.
Whether the two small factories in the U.K. retain any relevance is probably down to whether PSA see a competitive advantage in using our ports, subsidies and laws for more competitive export than they can achieve from the mainland.
DonkeyApple said:
Yipper said:
Vauxhall, the no.2 carmaker in the UK,
Im not sure that is correct. JLR, BMW, Honda, Nissan all manufacture far more than Opel do in the U.K.Vauxhall is essentially an importer, distributed, sales and finance company of Opel built products from the EU mainland. The small number of cars it does build in the U.K. is due to State subsidies and they are mostly exported.
Ellesmere Port employs 2000 State subsidised workers, the two core questions are how many UK people are engaged in supply the parts for that assembly plant or are all parts imported and how the number of employees compares to the number of employees in Vauxhalls key areas of business.
Vauxhall as people seem to love to think of it hasn't existed in decades. It's just a sticker on the back of a German car and the core business in the U.K. is sales.
You can talk about Remoaners but if you are a Brexiteer then why are you favouring British people buying non U.K. built cars and for all the revenue and profits to be being sucked out to the mainland? Surely you would want Vauxhall to go completely and for British people to buy British built cars like a Nissan?
A remainer would want to keep Vauxhall. A Brexiteer should want it gone.
I know how GM builds its cars, by using the cheapest components known to man. Saw a 1 year old mokka, have some suspension issues, repair list was a a4 paper front and back
Edited by Tryke3 on Sunday 12th March 11:10
Tryke3 said:
Stupid remoaner with your facts and stuff
I know how GM builds its cars, by using the cheapest components known to man. Saw a 1 year old mokka, have some suspension issues, repair list was a a4 paper front and back
Ironically, I am what the tabloids would refer to as a Brexiteer, although I am pro immigration, run a business which is reliant on the mainland for 50%+ of our revenue and am married to an Italian. I simply saw the remain vote as being an approval of what the EU had become and wanted to enforce on all its member peoples, which no sane person could ever approve of in my view. I wouldn't force Scots, Welsh or Irish to surrender their identities and cultural identities to be solely British (English) and nor would I tolerate Britain seeking to expand its borders so it is impossible to support an EU mechanism that seeks those things. I know how GM builds its cars, by using the cheapest components known to man. Saw a 1 year old mokka, have some suspension issues, repair list was a a4 paper front and back
Edited by Tryke3 on Sunday 12th March 11:10
But that's kind of irrelevant. Opel is a non U.K. business that slaps a Vauxhall sticker on its products to make stupid John Bulls think they are buying British. It has worked brilliantly for years and it's really unlikely to change. European manufacturers are not going to be removing the masks from their products any time soon and revealing to dimwitted Brexiteers that it's not a Vauxhall but an Opel.
But, from a Brexit perspective, it is a good thing to see one of the biggest importers of cars to the UK switching from US control to FrancoGerman. It places yet more pressure on those two states to negotiate a sensible trade deal. To me that is the positive from this.
Tryke3 said:
I know how GM builds its cars, by using the cheapest components known to man. Saw a 1 year old mokka, have some suspension issues, repair list was a a4 paper front and back
Funny that, when the A7 came out a friend who works for Audi turned up with several sheets of A4 of tech bulletins, issues and faults that [i]Edited by Tryke3 on Sunday 12th March 11:10
every[/i] car was to be inspected for.
Don't kid yourself that any car manufacturer does any different.
Edited by Crafty_ on Sunday 12th March 17:13
kambites said:
DonkeyApple said:
kambites said:
glazbagun said:
I'm not sure size is so important if they can keep profitability up. Porsche were making fortunes off the back of the Cayenne, after all. So long as they can keep their "premiumness" up and don't overplay their hand I think they'll be OK.
Well yes but Porsche are no longer independent, they're part of VAG. 
What GM's pull out from Europe in favour of investment in Asia does re highlight is that Europe is not seen as a growth market. Compared to Asia, most Europeans who are going to own a car already do. It's a market that is propped up almost purely by State dictated regulatory change and State managed lax consumer debt facilities.
There are car companies in China that dwarf many of the manufacturers we more readily recognise and with growth potential that far outstrips them. This does tend to suggest that the next truly significant period of consolidation probably won't be Western companies consuming other Western companies but maybe Chinese firms attempting to buy Western manufacturers in order to leap ahead of their domestic competitors. As many Western companies have Western states as notable shareholders as part of their protectionist support it will be interesting to see if such buyouts will be allowed?
There are car companies in China that dwarf many of the manufacturers we more readily recognise and with growth potential that far outstrips them. This does tend to suggest that the next truly significant period of consolidation probably won't be Western companies consuming other Western companies but maybe Chinese firms attempting to buy Western manufacturers in order to leap ahead of their domestic competitors. As many Western companies have Western states as notable shareholders as part of their protectionist support it will be interesting to see if such buyouts will be allowed?
jjones said:
Much cheaper to buy a couple of the models and then rip them off with no fear of IP lawsuits.
I think that only really gets you so far. China is keen to expand its engineering and sell higher level goods to the consumer led West. And their local firms are in fierce competition with each other. The other possible area of mergers and acquisitions has to be between the tech companies looking to move into the car business and the car industry needing to add more tech. The issue there is that the cultures between the two types of firm are so diverse that both ends are trying to meet at the middle point independently rather than by trying to merge two groups of humans who couldn't be more different.
Wills2 said:
kambites said:
DonkeyApple said:
kambites said:
glazbagun said:
I'm not sure size is so important if they can keep profitability up. Porsche were making fortunes off the back of the Cayenne, after all. So long as they can keep their "premiumness" up and don't overplay their hand I think they'll be OK.
Well yes but Porsche are no longer independent, they're part of VAG. DonkeyApple said:
What GM's pull out from Europe in favour of investment in Asia does re highlight is that Europe is not seen as a growth market. Compared to Asia, most Europeans who are going to own a car already do. It's a market that is propped up almost purely by State dictated regulatory change and State managed lax consumer debt facilities.
There are car companies in China that dwarf many of the manufacturers we more readily recognise and with growth potential that far outstrips them. This does tend to suggest that the next truly significant period of consolidation probably won't be Western companies consuming other Western companies but maybe Chinese firms attempting to buy Western manufacturers in order to leap ahead of their domestic competitors. As many Western companies have Western states as notable shareholders as part of their protectionist support it will be interesting to see if such buyouts will be allowed?
Well I doubt they have pulled out of Europe, just plan to reintroduce their product range after the market changes in the next 10 odd years esp with electric cars and cars as a service.There are car companies in China that dwarf many of the manufacturers we more readily recognise and with growth potential that far outstrips them. This does tend to suggest that the next truly significant period of consolidation probably won't be Western companies consuming other Western companies but maybe Chinese firms attempting to buy Western manufacturers in order to leap ahead of their domestic competitors. As many Western companies have Western states as notable shareholders as part of their protectionist support it will be interesting to see if such buyouts will be allowed?
They are pushing ahead with electric cars, same with ford.
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