RE: BMW M4: PH Fleet
Discussion
PaulsM3 said:
There's plenty of pre-registered sitting unsold at dealers. It's not special enough to warrant the price tag anymore.
M cars have always had an engine and character to them that was a significant step up from the standard models. The M3/4 no longer offers this.
BMW didn't even need to turbo charge the M cars- they achieve their emissions targets easily across the rest of the range and plenty of people are happy to forgo the fuel consumption for the fizz of a naturally aspirated engine. If you want fuel consumption buy a 435d.
Having been a BMW fan/stalwart for years and owned many of their cars, the current crop of cars are of little interest.
I agree 100%.M cars have always had an engine and character to them that was a significant step up from the standard models. The M3/4 no longer offers this.
BMW didn't even need to turbo charge the M cars- they achieve their emissions targets easily across the rest of the range and plenty of people are happy to forgo the fuel consumption for the fizz of a naturally aspirated engine. If you want fuel consumption buy a 435d.
Having been a BMW fan/stalwart for years and owned many of their cars, the current crop of cars are of little interest.
The reason I believe they went turbo, was performance per £, its cheaper to modify the turbo'd class of existing engines to get preformance and economy than create a whole new NA engine which (likely need to be high revving v8 with 450-500hp).
British Beef said:
I agree 100%.
The reason I believe they went turbo, was performance per £, its cheaper to modify the turbo'd class of existing engines to get preformance and economy than create a whole new NA engine which (likely need to be high revving v8 with 450-500hp).
Porsche have carried on that route (with some issues) - not sure that will last long.The reason I believe they went turbo, was performance per £, its cheaper to modify the turbo'd class of existing engines to get preformance and economy than create a whole new NA engine which (likely need to be high revving v8 with 450-500hp).
A 4wd M3/M4 at some stage, with even more power
British Beef said:
I agree 100%.
The reason I believe they went turbo, was performance per £, its cheaper to modify the turbo'd class of existing engines to get preformance and economy than create a whole new NA engine which (likely need to be high revving v8 with 450-500hp).
It's also performance per g of CO2. Generally an NA engine has to be bigger than a turbocharged engine to deliver an equivalent output, and the way fuel consumption and CO2 are calculated and measured favours smaller capacity engines.The reason I believe they went turbo, was performance per £, its cheaper to modify the turbo'd class of existing engines to get preformance and economy than create a whole new NA engine which (likely need to be high revving v8 with 450-500hp).
Don't forget the EU has set increasingly draconian average CO2 figures for manufacturers to meet across their ranges over the next 5 years, which are backed up by per-unit fines for every gram over target. It is in every manufacturer's interest to get even their "dirtiest" models as low as possible.
By 2021, every manufacturer wishing to sell cars inside the European Union has to have an average CO2 figure across their range of 95g/km!
Edited by Limpet on Wednesday 17th June 15:10
Limpet said:
By 2021, every manufacturer wishing to sell cars inside the European Union has to have an average CO2 figure across their range of 95g/km!
That figures seems insane, is that average even achievable? Only the smallest engined diesels or hybrids get close to those figures at the moment. Will be all have to drive around in 1.0 litre hybrid shopping trolleys by 2021?Limpet said:
By 2021, every manufacturer wishing to sell cars inside the European Union has to have an average CO2 figure across their range of 95g/km!
Average across their range - with hybrids & turbocharging making huge inroads, the M, GT & RS & AMG have some scope and if necessary reduce volume (increase price) and pay a fine.Guvernator said:
Limpet said:
By 2021, every manufacturer wishing to sell cars inside the European Union has to have an average CO2 figure across their range of 95g/km!
That figures seems insane, is that average even achievable? Only the smallest engined diesels or hybrids get close to those figures at the moment. Will be all have to drive around in 1.0 litre hybrid shopping trolleys by 2021?
tloads of small diesel Macans. Which they probably can.DaveR said:
To have any real world meaning, 'Average across the range' ought to factor in likely sales volumes across the range. That way, because every other 3 series on the road will be a 2.0d then the much smaller numbers of range topping models sold could afford to be something a little more extreme and the average of all of that manufacturer's cars on the road would still be 95g/km. Clearly this would be a lot less helpful to Porsche than BMW unless they can make and sell stloads of small diesel Macans. Which they probably can.
It still seems a VERY low average. How many cars in the BMW range get anywhere near that at present. I'd say out of the dozens of models available today, you are probably looking at 10 maybe which get close to that figure, for example the lowest emitting 3 series, the lowly 316d still emits 109g/km, how on earth are they going to get the fleet average below 95g/km in less that 6 years?tloads of small diesel Macans. Which they probably can.Guvernator said:
It still seems a VERY low average. How many cars in the BMW range get anywhere near that at present. I'd say out of the dozens of models available today, you are probably looking at 10 maybe which get close to that figure, for example the lowest emitting 3 series, the lowly 316d still emits 109g/km, how on earth are they going to get the fleet average below 95g/km in less that 6 years?
3 cylinder cars, hybrid, i3's, i8'spoor sales of M4's
PaulsM3 said:
There's plenty of pre-registered sitting unsold at dealers. It's not special enough to warrant the price tag anymore.
M cars have always had an engine and character to them that was a significant step up from the standard models. The M3/4 no longer offers this.
BMW didn't even need to turbo charge the M cars- they achieve their emissions targets easily across the rest of the range and plenty of people are happy to forgo the fuel consumption for the fizz of a naturally aspirated engine. If you want fuel consumption buy a 435d.
Having been a BMW fan/stalwart for years and owned many of their cars, the current crop of cars are of little interest.
With the greatest of respect, I'm fairly sure BMW know more about what the market wants than you do. M cars have always had an engine and character to them that was a significant step up from the standard models. The M3/4 no longer offers this.
BMW didn't even need to turbo charge the M cars- they achieve their emissions targets easily across the rest of the range and plenty of people are happy to forgo the fuel consumption for the fizz of a naturally aspirated engine. If you want fuel consumption buy a 435d.
Having been a BMW fan/stalwart for years and owned many of their cars, the current crop of cars are of little interest.
Mermaid said:
3 cylinder cars, hybrid, i3's, i8's
poor sales of M4's
poor sales of M4's
I don't like this day and age or the future very much when it comes to cars and this emissions rubbish needs binning off so we can all enjoy decent sounding and high capacity/high cylinder engines again. 
I like Turbo`s don't get me wrong but they mostly ruin the noise an engine makes and downsizing just over works an engine...which in the long run will only need more money chucking at it to keep it going.
nickfrog said:
Pricey ? Compared to what ? They're £50k.
No they are £57k and by the time you add some options which should come with it already, you're looking at £65k but this isn't a problem that is only restricted to BMW. I'm not sure why or when it became acceptable that a top of the range model didn't come with all the toys. Even Lexus who were the last bastion of the "fully loaded" car seem to have caved in. Playing on a configurator the other day I added about 6-7k of extras which IMO should be standard on a premium car without even trying.
Kenny Powers said:
PaulsM3 said:
There's plenty of pre-registered sitting unsold at dealers. It's not special enough to warrant the price tag anymore.
M cars have always had an engine and character to them that was a significant step up from the standard models. The M3/4 no longer offers this.
BMW didn't even need to turbo charge the M cars- they achieve their emissions targets easily across the rest of the range and plenty of people are happy to forgo the fuel consumption for the fizz of a naturally aspirated engine. If you want fuel consumption buy a 435d.
Having been a BMW fan/stalwart for years and owned many of their cars, the current crop of cars are of little interest.
With the greatest of respect, I'm fairly sure BMW know more about what the market wants than you do. M cars have always had an engine and character to them that was a significant step up from the standard models. The M3/4 no longer offers this.
BMW didn't even need to turbo charge the M cars- they achieve their emissions targets easily across the rest of the range and plenty of people are happy to forgo the fuel consumption for the fizz of a naturally aspirated engine. If you want fuel consumption buy a 435d.
Having been a BMW fan/stalwart for years and owned many of their cars, the current crop of cars are of little interest.
71,000 E36 M3 were made, 85,000 E46 and 65,000 E9x.
I think its generally accepted the E46 was the highpoint- all round good package.
Right size, acceptable fuel consumption, good performance, special engine.
The E9x, at a time when BMW was selling more cars than ever, sold less than the E46 because it was too good for its own good. The performance threshold is too high for most drivers on normal roads. Add in the unacceptable thirst for the type of car it is and the higher selling price, you may as well have bought a used Porsche instead.
BMW are still selling more cars than ever but the F8x is already clogging up dealer forecourts and drawing the worst press coverage an M3 has had in years. F8x model M3 prices are a huge discount from list because people don't want them. I don't think it will be troubling the E9x sales figures somehow.
And this isn't just a BMW problem- look at the firming up of used performance car values across the market. Prices only rise when demand is high.
E46 prices are firming and rising, 996/997 Porsches are holding and rising etc because lots of people interested in driving performance cars don't want them laden with expensive technology and turbos. They want the purer driving experience.
I think that's a fair interpretation.
I do not like these cars so much and in Japan they are very much associated with Rapists (this true story) because we have had 3 or 4 very high profile cases where a rapist used this car. I am not sure why this is Mr Dan but I feel it best not to promote this sort of car as it has been linked to un lawful behaviour and the police are very harsh on the few of these cars in Japan because of duty taxes are ver very rare. I personally like it though at risk of sounding as a rapist although the colour is like a 1980s hot tub which I don't care for!
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