Do you need anything more than a 320d?

[Speedgelb]

Way2Fast said:

Love my 320D. Although my mate does have a Audi TT mk 2 2011 and according to the stats it does have a bit more bhp however, I'm quite confident my 320d 2013 would beat him in a race. It feels very nippy and I tend to get about 40mpg if I drive sensibly.

Apt username

[greenarrow]

Sorry for re-booting this, but I am currently surveying the used car market and noticed how cheap early F30 320ds are these days. Even cheaper obvs are late model E90 320ds which have the same engine as early F30s..... certainly tempting for a "do-it all" family car I must say.

Could someone remind me which model generation it is where the standard suspension is considered to have gone a bit soft and wobbly.

Is it the LCI F30 where general opinion is that unless it was on M Sport suspension it was too wobbly?

Cars I am looking at are older F30 or very late model E90s.

I probably need the help of RobM77 here. I think he owned an E90 320d SE which he rated.

I also watched Chris Harris' video from 6-7 years ago which I presume helped inspire this thread. He said he would take the 320d over anything lower than an M3/M4 or C63. Interesting comment.

[JakeT]

From what I understand the F30 3 series is where they got a bit too 'soft' for the liking of a driving enthusiast.

An E90 on the Birds suspension kit is . Expensive, though.

[RobM77]

SE and MSport suspension both became softer on both 1 and 3 series as models progressed. My pre-LCI 2007 E90 320d was pretty good, but my post-LCI E90 320d was very wobbly. I put Birds suspension on it, which was fantastic. I tried an F30 for the day and it was even worse, to the degree it made me car sick on an hour's drive to work. Sadly, higher road noise than I was happy with on that demo car's 17" wheels put me off the M Sport version (which was at least 17" as standard, most on the market had 18s). I did briefly consider a 16" shod ED and putting Birds suspension on it, but fancied a change after my 5th 3 series so I'm now in a 530d M Sport.

As usual, I agree with Chris Harris. For most driving, in a 3 series the '20d engine provides just about enough shove. Motorways are a steady speed, back roads tend to be 40-60mph accelerations, around town it's usually a steady 30mph, or less if busy. It would only be urban dual carriageways coming off roundabouts and traffic lights where I'd miss the higher power of a '30d, but then you have to ask if the extra nose weight is worth it for those moments. The full fat M cars bring a whole host of changes which really bring them alive, and like Chris I've loved all that I've tried. Below that though, I agree, SE and M Sport give the same handling, so you just have to choose your compromise between fuelling, power and nose weight.

[StuntmanMike]

Fastdruid said:

Kawasicki said:

Objectively better handling? Handling is a subjective matter, in my opinion.

Well...As an example a Mk3 Mondeo will go round a track quicker than a more powerful E46 318i...

https://www.facebook.com/CHandMTopGearVideos/video... about 45min in or 53min if you want to skip to the laps.

Objectively the Mondeo is quicker so _its_ handling is better.
Subjectively people prefer the way the RWD 3-series feels even if it doesn't go round corners as well so _its_ handling is better.

Of course equally valid is that people prefer the BMW badge so its handling must be better.

I’ve owned an E36 328, E46 330 sport, E60 550 Msport.

The Mk1 Focus I bought my wife years ago handled better than any of them.

Despite the Focus being used and abused and the BMWs having suspension refreshes etc.

[greenarrow]

RobM77 said:

SE and MSport suspension both became softer on both 1 and 3 series as models progressed. My pre-LCI 2007 E90 320d was pretty good, but my post-LCI E90 320d was very wobbly. I put Birds suspension on it, which was fantastic. I tried an F30 for the day and it was even worse, to the degree it made me car sick on an hour's drive to work. Sadly, higher road noise than I was happy with on that demo car's 17" wheels put me off the M Sport version (which was at least 17" as standard, most on the market had 18s). I did briefly consider a 16" shod ED and putting Birds suspension on it, but fancied a change after my 5th 3 series so I'm now in a 530d M Sport.

As usual, I agree with Chris Harris. For most driving, in a 3 series the '20d engine provides just about enough shove. Motorways are a steady speed, back roads tend to be 40-60mph accelerations, around town it's usually a steady 30mph, or less if busy. It would only be urban dual carriageways coming off roundabouts and traffic lights where I'd miss the higher power of a '30d, but then you have to ask if the extra nose weight is worth it for those moments. The full fat M cars bring a whole host of changes which really bring them alive, and like Chris I've loved all that I've tried. Below that though, I agree, SE and M Sport give the same handling, so you just have to choose your compromise between fuelling, power and nose weight.

Interesting comments re the SE/MSport. I assume, the efficient dynamics models are the same.

So, does the RWD handling balance of the 3 Series still elevate it above the FWD stuff. My wife is trying to steer me torwards a VW Passat or similar and having owned one of those its a very comfortable car but had very little driver appeal.....

Funnily enough seeing Stuntman Mike's comment above mine, I'm currently running around in a Mk1 Focus, so whatever I replace it with must handle fairly sweetly as my little Focus has given me some great drives during the lockdown period....I miss the handling of my old MX-5, so hence the RWD BMW does appeal.

[cerb4.5lee]

I personally found a big difference handling and cornering wise between the SE and M Sport in the 3 series. The SE felt quite boaty and it rolled far more in the corners, whereas the M Sport just doesn't in comparison. The SE does ride far better though and it has a much softer ride, the M Sport ride can be pretty harsh at times in my experience.

[iulian7]

I honestly think a lot of these things depend on personal preference. It depends on how you drive, your character, what you like and feel good in, etc.

For example, while there is nothing inherently wrong with FWD - I don't like it and I don't like owning FWD cars. While a 320d is a very good car I believe it is underpowered even though it punches above its weight. I actually own an F30 320d.

Similarly if you like driving and have a family I think it is probably best that you own 2 cars if it is affordable for you. This will probably allow you to make smarter decisions about the family car while compromising less on the sports car. Having said that, BMW for example make good compromises in that they generally do a good job at being a family car as well as good to drive. I get to drive a wide range of cars, and honestly the 3 series is good to drive. If I were to go back in time, I would have probably picked the 330d though.

[RobM77]

StuntmanMike said:

Fastdruid said:

Kawasicki said:

Objectively better handling? Handling is a subjective matter, in my opinion.

Well...As an example a Mk3 Mondeo will go round a track quicker than a more powerful E46 318i...

https://www.facebook.com/CHandMTopGearVideos/video... about 45min in or 53min if you want to skip to the laps.

Objectively the Mondeo is quicker so _its_ handling is better.
Subjectively people prefer the way the RWD 3-series feels even if it doesn't go round corners as well so _its_ handling is better.

Of course equally valid is that people prefer the BMW badge so its handling must be better.

I’ve owned an E36 328, E46 330 sport, E60 550 Msport.

The Mk1 Focus I bought my wife years ago handled better than any of them.

Despite the Focus being used and abused and the BMWs having suspension refreshes etc.

I disagree with you, I much prefer those cars you listed to the Focus - but both our opinions are valid, because handling is subjective.

[RobM77]

greenarrow said:

RobM77 said:

SE and MSport suspension both became softer on both 1 and 3 series as models progressed. My pre-LCI 2007 E90 320d was pretty good, but my post-LCI E90 320d was very wobbly. I put Birds suspension on it, which was fantastic. I tried an F30 for the day and it was even worse, to the degree it made me car sick on an hour's drive to work. Sadly, higher road noise than I was happy with on that demo car's 17" wheels put me off the M Sport version (which was at least 17" as standard, most on the market had 18s). I did briefly consider a 16" shod ED and putting Birds suspension on it, but fancied a change after my 5th 3 series so I'm now in a 530d M Sport.

As usual, I agree with Chris Harris. For most driving, in a 3 series the '20d engine provides just about enough shove. Motorways are a steady speed, back roads tend to be 40-60mph accelerations, around town it's usually a steady 30mph, or less if busy. It would only be urban dual carriageways coming off roundabouts and traffic lights where I'd miss the higher power of a '30d, but then you have to ask if the extra nose weight is worth it for those moments. The full fat M cars bring a whole host of changes which really bring them alive, and like Chris I've loved all that I've tried. Below that though, I agree, SE and M Sport give the same handling, so you just have to choose your compromise between fuelling, power and nose weight.

Interesting comments re the SE/MSport. I assume, the efficient dynamics models are the same.

So, does the RWD handling balance of the 3 Series still elevate it above the FWD stuff. My wife is trying to steer me torwards a VW Passat or similar and having owned one of those its a very comfortable car but had very little driver appeal.....

Funnily enough seeing Stuntman Mike's comment above mine, I'm currently running around in a Mk1 Focus, so whatever I replace it with must handle fairly sweetly as my little Focus has given me some great drives during the lockdown period....I miss the handling of my old MX-5, so hence the RWD BMW does appeal.

The ED remains a bit of a mystery, as I chased BMW on the issue and got told multiple times that they have SE suspension. However, the E90 ED was 20mm lower than SE, so it couldn't have been identical. Practically though, I do know that from the E90 LCI onwards, anything other than M Sport or aftermarket is pretty boat like, for me at least! The best suspension I ever tried was Birds - in fact my Birds 3 series was the best handling BMW I've driven, or at least up there with the best.

As for your other question, that's entirely subjective. I would think that the main difference between a 3 series and a Passat is the engineering focus. Aside from which end of the cars is driven, BMW generally engineer their normal cars for keen drivers (pedals for heel and toe, low CofG, etc), whereas VW don't; it has to be a GTi, R, or similar with VW. Furthermore, BMW offer M Sport suspension with any engine, whereas with VW you need to fork out for a GTi or an R model to get that. For me that's a major bonus. So yes, I'd choose a standard BMW over a standard Passat, but more of that is the setup than the end that's driven. Of course you have to add in your preference for rear or front drive. Personally I have a strong preference for rear drive, so the decision for me is easy.

[otolith]

ORD said:

Partly. Aren't there some things we all agree are objectively good or bad? Nobody likes steady state understeer (if that is the right terminology). Nobody likes instability under braking. Nobody dislikes at least some ability to steer on the throttle.

Yet Audi have sold a lot of cars over the years.

[ORD]

otolith said:

ORD said:

Partly. Aren't there some things we all agree are objectively good or bad? Nobody likes steady state understeer (if that is the right terminology). Nobody likes instability under braking. Nobody dislikes at least some ability to steer on the throttle.

Yet Audi have sold a lot of cars over the years.

It is more that those buyers don't notice these things, isn't it? I doubt any of them actively seek out shoddy handling.

[Ares]

OT, but my old man's E91 320d has just tipped over 70,000 miles. After noticing a bit of a vibration, he had it investigated - the flywheel needs replacing, cost £750 (would have been north of £2,000 at a dealer).

Apparently a known and common fault??

[Fastdruid]

Well it's a diesel, so yes DMF is a very well known & common fault with all of them. It's not BMW specific though.

[Pistonheader101]

Never had the pleasure of owning or driving a 320d, but doubt it would be any different to my 335d xdrive and 340i

[otolith]

ORD said:

It is more that those buyers don't notice these things, isn't it? I doubt any of them actively seek out shoddy handling.

I think there are probably people who interpret throttle instability and a refusal to do anything more exciting than understeer as "secure" and "planted".

[NewUsername]

Just about to get shot of my 2011 E91 320d M Sport auto

In summary I paid £13,000 for it in 2014 with 21k miles and its just ticked over to 145k it replaced an Octavia VRS petrol Hatch for daily commute duties. WBAC have offered me £4150 for it so I'd say thats very cheap motoring

Is it all the car I needed? Yep

Its been uber reliable, only service items and consumables, discs and pads last apprx 60k miles for me, run all year round and long trips abroad ( 4500 miles in 17 days around Italy in 2017 for example)

It may not be ultimately fast but midrange on the motorway it feels much more powerful than it should and gives 'faster' cars a hard time on occasion on both Motorway and A/B roads alike ( you have to be fairly committed to get past a well driven one)

RWD chassis is more rewrding than the Skoda and the Mondeo previous to that and regardless of track times etc it was always fun getting the rear a little mobile on fast slow fast dual carriageway island sections on my commute ( back it in and a pre apex stab of throttle to anticipate the 'lag' on the gearbox' )

Always run on OEM Runflat RE050a Potenza and the ride was meh......same on its Dunlop SP Sport Winters, again runflat. Recent times saw a change to cross climates which ride well but have a softer turn in etc etc as you'd expect.

A capable car in the snow on the correct tyres.

Would I have another, hell yes, would I have liked a 330, hell yes, did I need one, hell no.

Superb cars, I feel the F series isn't as well screwed together as my runout E91 so doubt i'd have one and with a growing family i wont be in a 3 for a while, but i'd happily take a G when the need for space goes away.

Dont know why all other estates dont have a split tailgate.

Its been a cheap, reliable car that has entertained far more than it should for a diesel rep mobile. Still the benchmark for anyone interested in driving in this segment IMO

[NewUsername]

Fastdruid said:

Kawasicki said:

Objectively better handling? Handling is a subjective matter, in my opinion.

Well...As an example a Mk3 Mondeo will go round a track quicker than a more powerful E46 318i...

https://www.facebook.com/CHandMTopGearVideos/video... about 45min in or 53min if you want to skip to the laps.

Objectively the Mondeo is quicker so _its_ handling is better.
Subjectively people prefer the way the RWD 3-series feels even if it doesn't go round corners as well so _its_ handling is better.

Of course equally valid is that people prefer the BMW badge so its handling must be better.

What was the control tyre here?

[James-m5qjf]

greenarrow said:

I also watched Chris Harris' video from 6-7 years ago which I presume helped inspire this thread. He said he would take the 320d over anything lower than an M3/M4 or C63. Interesting comment.

That’s because he has a fleet of cars to choose from

I had 8 years and 200k of 320d F30 ownership across two company cars. Both great, the 2012 standard suspension was a little soft, adaptive is the way to go IMO. I remember reading that the facelift was better with standard setup compared to the harsh sports suspension - horses for courses.

Well built, reliable and reasonably pokey for a daily hack. There are always comments about F30 build quality, I usually find this surprising as after 200k across 2 cars there was barely a fault to mention and no creaks or rattles, I found it to be exceptional.

I had aspirations to move away from BMW/F3X but now find myself in a 340i Touring. Ticks all the daily performances boxes without excelling in any particular area.

Edited by James-m5qjf on Tuesday 25th August 14:17

[greenarrow]

NewUsername said:

Just about to get shot of my 2011 E91 320d M Sport auto

In summary I paid £13,000 for it in 2014 with 21k miles and its just ticked over to 145k it replaced an Octavia VRS petrol Hatch for daily commute duties. WBAC have offered me £4150 for it so I'd say thats very cheap motoring

Is it all the car I needed? Yep

Its been uber reliable, only service items and consumables, discs and pads last apprx 60k miles for me, run all year round and long trips abroad ( 4500 miles in 17 days around Italy in 2017 for example)

It may not be ultimately fast but midrange on the motorway it feels much more powerful than it should and gives 'faster' cars a hard time on occasion on both Motorway and A/B roads alike ( you have to be fairly committed to get past a well driven one)

RWD chassis is more rewrding than the Skoda and the Mondeo previous to that and regardless of track times etc it was always fun getting the rear a little mobile on fast slow fast dual carriageway island sections on my commute ( back it in and a pre apex stab of throttle to anticipate the 'lag' on the gearbox' )

Always run on OEM Runflat RE050a Potenza and the ride was meh......same on its Dunlop SP Sport Winters, again runflat. Recent times saw a change to cross climates which ride well but have a softer turn in etc etc as you'd expect.

A capable car in the snow on the correct tyres.

Would I have another, hell yes, would I have liked a 330, hell yes, did I need one, hell no.

Superb cars, I feel the F series isn't as well screwed together as my runout E91 so doubt i'd have one and with a growing family i wont be in a 3 for a while, but i'd happily take a G when the need for space goes away.

Dont know why all other estates dont have a split tailgate.

Its been a cheap, reliable car that has entertained far more than it should for a diesel rep mobile. Still the benchmark for anyone interested in driving in this segment IMO

Your review is very well timed, as I was looking at a car for sale on facebook yesterday, a 320d SE, 134K miles £3600 with full BMW history. No MOT advisories. The elephant in the room is the timing chain issue on the N47 engine, but I guess I would just get the car inspected by a garage and budget for a replacement if there were any concerns. I keep reading comments like yours suggesting these cars wear miles very well and still feel fresh after 100K miles.