Do you need anything more than a 320d?
Discussion
lostkiwi said:
You didn't read my post very well....
1/12 of my year - you have somehow assumed thats 20 days when its nearer 35.
Also the commuting I do is not motorway, dual carriageway, or even much A road so small, nimble and decent handling are not a trial on a day to day basis either.
High revving is my preference (and by high I mean beyond what diesels do as they just don't rev and have too narrow a torque band for my tastes - they sound awful too) just as your preference is 'drivability, chassis and balance' - my choices just as those are yours.
Fair enough.... just wondered. Different Strokes/Different Folks.1/12 of my year - you have somehow assumed thats 20 days when its nearer 35.
Also the commuting I do is not motorway, dual carriageway, or even much A road so small, nimble and decent handling are not a trial on a day to day basis either.
High revving is my preference (and by high I mean beyond what diesels do as they just don't rev and have too narrow a torque band for my tastes - they sound awful too) just as your preference is 'drivability, chassis and balance' - my choices just as those are yours.
As I said in my very first post, it's purely down to personal preference and the type of driving you do.
For me the 320d makes perfect sense, because I'm not fussed about straight line performance in a road car, hate the throttle lag on petrol engines, must have RWD and a manual box, and I do 35-40k miles a year, much of which is on the motorway and the rest is on sweeping A, B and C roads where I hardly ever drop below 50mph or go above 60mph. I also need roof bars, a tow bar and the space inside the car. I already have a track car for when I want to enjoy decent performance (legally on a race track).
If you were similar to me but didn't mind a bit of throttle lag and wanted a smooth engine giving reasonable performance, then a six cyclinder E90 330i would be a better choice, depending on mileage.
If you spend your life on the motorway and hardly ever engage with the handling of your car and aren't too fussed about FWD, then of course you're going to save money and open yourself out to the much bigger choice of FWD car (the aforementioned Mondeo or Mazda 6 for example, or my choice, which would be a Golf or Civic).
If I lived amongst roads where hairpins were common on NSL roads, mountain passes surrounded me and speed limits were high (e.g. southern Bavaria), then I'd have an M3.
What I find utterly baffling is the number of people unable to grasp how different people have different priorities and drive on different roads. We've had more than one person on this thread just say "no, you didn't buy your car for reasons w and x, you bought it for reasons y and z." The arrogance and ignorance of such people is stunning - telling people why they did things?! What's that all about? We've also had people repeatedly mention NVH, when in actual fact the 320d has been class leading in terms of sound levels at 70mph for years - for those of us who never drive at low speeds in towns, why would the diesel noise at crawling speed bother us? I could go on, but essentially everyone is different and that's the end of it!
For me the 320d makes perfect sense, because I'm not fussed about straight line performance in a road car, hate the throttle lag on petrol engines, must have RWD and a manual box, and I do 35-40k miles a year, much of which is on the motorway and the rest is on sweeping A, B and C roads where I hardly ever drop below 50mph or go above 60mph. I also need roof bars, a tow bar and the space inside the car. I already have a track car for when I want to enjoy decent performance (legally on a race track).
If you were similar to me but didn't mind a bit of throttle lag and wanted a smooth engine giving reasonable performance, then a six cyclinder E90 330i would be a better choice, depending on mileage.
If you spend your life on the motorway and hardly ever engage with the handling of your car and aren't too fussed about FWD, then of course you're going to save money and open yourself out to the much bigger choice of FWD car (the aforementioned Mondeo or Mazda 6 for example, or my choice, which would be a Golf or Civic).
If I lived amongst roads where hairpins were common on NSL roads, mountain passes surrounded me and speed limits were high (e.g. southern Bavaria), then I'd have an M3.
What I find utterly baffling is the number of people unable to grasp how different people have different priorities and drive on different roads. We've had more than one person on this thread just say "no, you didn't buy your car for reasons w and x, you bought it for reasons y and z." The arrogance and ignorance of such people is stunning - telling people why they did things?! What's that all about? We've also had people repeatedly mention NVH, when in actual fact the 320d has been class leading in terms of sound levels at 70mph for years - for those of us who never drive at low speeds in towns, why would the diesel noise at crawling speed bother us? I could go on, but essentially everyone is different and that's the end of it!
A lot of truth in that, Rob. And I am certainly guilty of questioning people's reasons.
But there is something utterly unconvincing about saying "Fuel efficiency played no part in my decision to buy the diesel version". It is a bit like saying "I prefer £5 Cava to Champagne. Nothing to do with the cost". It MIGHT be true, but it is inherently unlikely, and you have to factor in that people don't like admitting to being tight
But there is something utterly unconvincing about saying "Fuel efficiency played no part in my decision to buy the diesel version". It is a bit like saying "I prefer £5 Cava to Champagne. Nothing to do with the cost". It MIGHT be true, but it is inherently unlikely, and you have to factor in that people don't like admitting to being tight
ORD said:
A lot of truth in that, Rob. And I am certainly guilty of questioning people's reasons.
But there is something utterly unconvincing about saying "Fuel efficiency played no part in my decision to buy the diesel version". It is a bit like saying "I prefer £5 Cava to Champagne. Nothing to do with the cost". It MIGHT be true, but it is inherently unlikely, and you have to factor in that people don't like admitting to being tight
Not quite sure that's the case when people are already spending £50/60/70k+ on a car. But there is something utterly unconvincing about saying "Fuel efficiency played no part in my decision to buy the diesel version". It is a bit like saying "I prefer £5 Cava to Champagne. Nothing to do with the cost". It MIGHT be true, but it is inherently unlikely, and you have to factor in that people don't like admitting to being tight
It's more unconvincing when people will find any reason possible for slagging of diesels, and not accepting other people's choices, often based on an experience of driving a 4-pot s
t-heap diesel several years earlier. Ditto people that once drove a 3-speed 1980's auto and insist that a manual is a true man's only choice because autos are s
t, slow and ponderous, always hunting for a gear and lurching forward with a 2 second gear-change 
It is almost impossible to please all on PH.
Get the most hardcore road racer; no good for the kids or golf clubs.
Get a fat, snarling V8; too thirsty.
Get a drop top sports car; too girly.
Get a hot hatch; it's a shopping car.
Get an SUV; it's a Chelsea tractor.
Go petrol; you'll upset the diesel heads.
And so on and so on.
Still baffled by this petrol throttle delay thing that I've never noticed.
I must add that my first car, a 1.3 Marina given to be by a well meaning grandad was RWD and utter turd in every single way. However I am generally a fan of RWD and proper (not Haldex) 4wd. I don't like FWD.
Get the most hardcore road racer; no good for the kids or golf clubs.
Get a fat, snarling V8; too thirsty.
Get a drop top sports car; too girly.
Get a hot hatch; it's a shopping car.
Get an SUV; it's a Chelsea tractor.
Go petrol; you'll upset the diesel heads.
And so on and so on.
Still baffled by this petrol throttle delay thing that I've never noticed.
I must add that my first car, a 1.3 Marina given to be by a well meaning grandad was RWD and utter turd in every single way. However I am generally a fan of RWD and proper (not Haldex) 4wd. I don't like FWD.
Tractor lad said:
I must add that my first car, a 1.3 Marina given to be by a well meaning grandad was RWD and utter turd in every single way.
History is littered with appalling rear drive cars....Hillman Hunter, Avenger, Marina, numerous Holdens, Caddys, Chevs and so on. Just as many rear drive lemons and front drive ones I'd guess (given the overall standard has improved since FWD became more mainstream). That said most 70's BL cars apart from the Mini were pretty dire.....
Tractor lad said:
I must add that my first car, a 1.3 Marina given to be by a well meaning grandad was RWD and utter turd in every single way.
Of course, yes. That's a classic PH mis-understanding that often comes up on threads like these. The statement "I prefer RWD" or even the stronger "I only like RWD" are both different to saying "all RWD cars are better than all FWD cars". It's a bit someone saying that they only really like slim women; that's not the same as saying that all slim women are attractive.Tractor lad said:
It is almost impossible to please all on PH.
Get the most hardcore road racer; no good for the kids or golf clubs.
Get a fat, snarling V8; too thirsty.
Get a drop top sports car; too girly.
Get a hot hatch; it's a shopping car.
Get an SUV; it's a Chelsea tractor.
Go petrol; you'll upset the diesel heads.
And so on and so on.
Still baffled by this petrol throttle delay thing that I've never noticed.
I must add that my first car, a 1.3 Marina given to be by a well meaning grandad was RWD and utter turd in every single way. However I am generally a fan of RWD and proper (not Haldex) 4wd. I don't like FWD.
It is almost impossible to please all on PH.Get the most hardcore road racer; no good for the kids or golf clubs.
Get a fat, snarling V8; too thirsty.
Get a drop top sports car; too girly.
Get a hot hatch; it's a shopping car.
Get an SUV; it's a Chelsea tractor.
Go petrol; you'll upset the diesel heads.
And so on and so on.
Still baffled by this petrol throttle delay thing that I've never noticed.
I must add that my first car, a 1.3 Marina given to be by a well meaning grandad was RWD and utter turd in every single way. However I am generally a fan of RWD and proper (not Haldex) 4wd. I don't like FWD.
Get car bigger than a Mundane-o, it's too big
Get a BMW/Audi/Merc it's too expensive and is no better than a ford/Jap-box
Get an Audi you're a fanboy
Get a Merc you're a fanboy
Get a BMW you're a fanboy
Get a car weighing more than 1200kg, it's a barge
Get a 3-400bhp diesel, it's pointless (and you should've bought petrol)
Get any diesel because you preferred it, get called a liar
Get a diesel and claim it's fast, you're deluded
Not buy a petrol, you're not really a petrolhead
And so on and so on.
Still baffled by this 'all diesels are dogged with NVH' thing that with all diesels that I've owned, I've never noticed on any of mine.
I must add that my first car, a 1.2 Beetle given to be by a well meaning mother was RWD petrol and was dreadful as soon as it was moving.......
etc
ORD said:
A lot of truth in that, Rob. And I am certainly guilty of questioning people's reasons.
But there is something utterly unconvincing about saying "Fuel efficiency played no part in my decision to buy the diesel version". It is a bit like saying "I prefer £5 Cava to Champagne. Nothing to do with the cost". It MIGHT be true, but it is inherently unlikely, and you have to factor in that people don't like admitting to being tight
But there is something utterly unconvincing about saying "Fuel efficiency played no part in my decision to buy the diesel version". It is a bit like saying "I prefer £5 Cava to Champagne. Nothing to do with the cost". It MIGHT be true, but it is inherently unlikely, and you have to factor in that people don't like admitting to being tight
I agree that it must sound strange to those who can't detect that throttle lag in the petrol BMWs out there, or to people who view the 330i or 335i as some sort of amazing performance car to be lusted after (whereas the truth is if you're used to single seaters, no normal road car feels like an amazing performer). To be honest the whole BMW thing must be baffling in itself to people who can't detect the handling advantages over an Audi or Mondeo. What's so unbelievably arrogant and ignorant though is someone telling other people "the real reasons" why they made certain decisions, as if they know that person better. Saying such a thing over the internet to a stranger is just comical.I reckon if you looked hard enough you could find people who prefer Cava to Champagne, or certainly Prosecco.
I went to a Bollinger tasting recently and I actually preferred their £65 a bottle "Grand Année" to their £120 "RD", as did a couple of other people on my table. Preferring Cava to an NV Champagne is something I would find harder to fathom, but I'm guessing some people out there must Actually, I often prefer cheaper red wine to more expensive reds, because sadly I seem to taste oak flavours in wine way more than I should do, so if a priceless Grand Cru has been aged in Oak barrels, it's likely all I'll taste is the oak in it and I may prefer a cheaper wine aged in stainless steel. I guess that's a good analaogy to the throttle lag - if you find that it particularly annoys you, you'll hate any car with it, no matter how nice. And the same for diesel We're all different!Tractor lad said:
It is almost impossible to please all on PH.
Get the most hardcore road racer; no good for the kids or golf clubs.
Get a fat, snarling V8; too thirsty.
Get a drop top sports car; too girly.
Get a hot hatch; it's a shopping car.
Get an SUV; it's a Chelsea tractor.
Go petrol; you'll upset the diesel heads.
And so on and so on.
Some very valid points mentioned in there though. Get the most hardcore road racer; no good for the kids or golf clubs.
Get a fat, snarling V8; too thirsty.
Get a drop top sports car; too girly.
Get a hot hatch; it's a shopping car.
Get an SUV; it's a Chelsea tractor.
Go petrol; you'll upset the diesel heads.
And so on and so on.
Ares said:
Get a car weighing more than 1200kg, it's a barge
I tend to think that is certainly a valid point, the two most favourite cars I have owned (Cerbera/200SX) weighed around that figure and I enjoyed driving them both all of the time, everything else I have had after them have weighed more and I haven't loved any of them. Weight ruins the driving experience full stop for sure, a few I have owned...E90 330i/330d too heavy, Z4M/E92 M3 too heavy, 640d/X5 4.8is too heavy and so on.
I really enjoyed the Caterham I drove though and I am now looking to make sure my next car isn't ruined by the unnecessary weight it carries around with it.
RobM77 said:
I agree that it must sound strange to those who can't detect that throttle lag in the petrol BMWs out there, or to people who view the 330i or 335i as some sort of amazing performance car to be lusted after RobM77 said:
To be honest the whole BMW thing must be baffling in itself to people who can't detect the handling advantages over an Audi or Mondeo.
That is true - but again, 99% of drivers/car buyers can't. Just look at the buying choices of majority of people. RobM77 said:
What's so unbelievably arrogant and ignorant though is someone telling other people "the real reasons" why they made certain decisions, as if they know that person better. Saying such a thing over the internet to a stranger is just comical.
Very Very trueRobM77 said:
I reckon if you looked hard enough you could find people who prefer Cava to Champagne, or certainly Prosecco. I went to a Bollinger tasting recently and I actually preferred their £65 a bottle "Grand Année" to their £120 "RD", as did a couple of other people on my table. Preferring Cava to an NV Champagne is something I would find harder to fathom, but I'm guessing some people out there must Actually, I often prefer cheaper red wine to more expensive reds, because sadly I seem to taste oak flavours in wine way more than I should do, so if a priceless Grand Cru has been aged in Oak barrels, it's likely all I'll taste is the oak in it and I may prefer a cheaper wine aged in stainless steel. I guess that's a good analaogy to the throttle lag - if you find that it particularly annoys you, you'll hate any car with it, no matter how nice. And the same for diesel We're all different!
Also true. Richard Geoffroy (The 'Chef due Cave" at Dom Perignon) did us a taste test (on his day off!). He could cite Cavas & Proseccos that were quite easily better than a cheap Champagne. He even confessed to letting us know of one year that they pulled put of releasing a DP because they couldn't win the taste test between that and a €25 bottle of Ayala. I went to a Bollinger tasting recently and I actually preferred their £65 a bottle "Grand Année" to their £120 "RD", as did a couple of other people on my table. Preferring Cava to an NV Champagne is something I would find harder to fathom, but I'm guessing some people out there must Actually, I often prefer cheaper red wine to more expensive reds, because sadly I seem to taste oak flavours in wine way more than I should do, so if a priceless Grand Cru has been aged in Oak barrels, it's likely all I'll taste is the oak in it and I may prefer a cheaper wine aged in stainless steel. I guess that's a good analaogy to the throttle lag - if you find that it particularly annoys you, you'll hate any car with it, no matter how nice. And the same for diesel We're all different!cerb4.5lee said:
Ares said:
Get a car weighing more than 1200kg, it's a barge
I tend to think that is certainly a valid point, the two most favourite cars I have owned (Cerbera/200SX) weighed around that figure and I enjoyed driving them both all of the time, everything else I have had after them have weighed more and I haven't loved any of them. Weight ruins the driving experience full stop for sure, a few I have owned...E90 330i/330d too heavy, Z4M/E92 M3 too heavy, 640d/X5 4.8is too heavy and so on.
I really enjoyed the Caterham I drove though and I am now looking to make sure my next car isn't ruined by the unnecessary weight it carries around with it.
My old Whiting Blade was 380kg. That was lithe, but getting a real world everyday car to come in at even three times that is nigh-on impossible.
swerni said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Ares said:
Get a car weighing more than 1200kg, it's a barge
I tend to think that is certainly a valid point, the two most favourite cars I have owned (Cerbera/200SX) weighed around that figure and I enjoyed driving them both all of the time, everything else I have had after them have weighed more and I haven't loved any of them. Weight ruins the driving experience full stop for sure, a few I have owned...E90 330i/330d too heavy, Z4M/E92 M3 too heavy, 640d/X5 4.8is too heavy and so on.
I really enjoyed the Caterham I drove though and I am now looking to make sure my next car isn't ruined by the unnecessary weight it carries around with it.
Tractor lad said:
Car makers are shedding the kgs at last but it's for mpg not performance.
Light weight is SUCH a huge leveller in performance cars. Too often overlooked.
I hate Prosecco...
More power makes you faster in a straight lineLight weight is SUCH a huge leveller in performance cars. Too often overlooked.
I hate Prosecco...
Less weight makes you faster everywhere.
/Colin Chapman
I could lap circuits quicker in my Caterham than Dave Bushell could in his Supercup race car. He was still 5-10% quicker when he drove mine though...
swerni said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Ares said:
Get a car weighing more than 1200kg, it's a barge
I tend to think that is certainly a valid point, the two most favourite cars I have owned (Cerbera/200SX) weighed around that figure and I enjoyed driving them both all of the time, everything else I have had after them have weighed more and I haven't loved any of them. Weight ruins the driving experience full stop for sure, a few I have owned...E90 330i/330d too heavy, Z4M/E92 M3 too heavy, 640d/X5 4.8is too heavy and so on.
I really enjoyed the Caterham I drove though and I am now looking to make sure my next car isn't ruined by the unnecessary weight it carries around with it.
Ares said:
swerni said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Ares said:
Get a car weighing more than 1200kg, it's a barge
I tend to think that is certainly a valid point, the two most favourite cars I have owned (Cerbera/200SX) weighed around that figure and I enjoyed driving them both all of the time, everything else I have had after them have weighed more and I haven't loved any of them. Weight ruins the driving experience full stop for sure, a few I have owned...E90 330i/330d too heavy, Z4M/E92 M3 too heavy, 640d/X5 4.8is too heavy and so on.
I really enjoyed the Caterham I drove though and I am now looking to make sure my next car isn't ruined by the unnecessary weight it carries around with it.
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