Do you need anything more than a 320d?
Discussion
Ali_T said:
I hate BMWs and I really hate diesels. Does that make an exception? I hope so. I'd rather stab myself in the eye with a fork than drive a glorified rep mobile.
But aren't you driving a very pretty front wheel drive Fiat? A hatch that, no matter how good Fiat's offerings may be, won't be as good as a Golf? 
Years ago even a base model 320i or 520i was a bit special compared to the boggo cars of the time. These days most cars are rather good, both to drive and as appliances. The gap has narrowed to such an extent that I don't understand why one would (when buying new) pay the premium for a 320d or A4 or similar. No offense intended to owners of either.
Ali_T said:
I hate BMWs and I really hate diesels. Does that make an exception? I hope so. I'd rather stab myself in the eye with a fork than drive a glorified rep mobile.
Absolutely. I for the life of me can't imagine why any one would want to own such a boring car. If all I wanted was a mode of transport there's hundreds of cars out there that offer better value for money.heebeegeetee said:
But aren't you driving a very pretty front wheel drive Fiat? A hatch that, no matter how good Fiat's offerings may be, won't be as good as a Golf?
I tried a Golf. In fact, I've tried a Golf every time I've changed cars and found them mind numbingly boring every time. I'd rather drive a Fiat!Edited by Ali_T on Thursday 25th June 14:10
For me it's just a matter of priorities. I usually agree with Chris Harris and this latest video is no exception. Most PHers seem to talk mainly about power, image, badge and rarity, and that's fair enough for them, but none of those things matter much to me, which explains my choice of daily driver (320d). When Chris or I express our preferences in videos or posts, we often get responses like this thread, and that's a shame as it shows how narrow minded some people can be.
Personally, once my boring practical criteria are met for a daily driver (tow bar, roof bars, folding rear seats, quiet on the motorway), I'm then primarily interested in driving and handling and for me a car must have rear drive, a proper manual gearbox and balanced weight distribution. There aren't many cars that meet these criteria (C Class, 3 series, RX8, XE.. err..). Power isn't of much interest to me - I've owned a 330i and other such cars and driven loads and to be honest the difference between the 330's 265/230 bhp and the 320d's 185/163bhp isn't really of much consequence to me, especially not in a daily driver that never gets taken on track and only rarely on an autobahn. Yes, I like a nice petrol engine but I never driven in towns so rarely hear the rattly idle of the 320d's diesel engine, and as previously discussed, drive by wire throttles have ruined most petrol engines now anyway.
Finally, note how Chris Harris finishes the video, by talking briefly about choosing a daily driver in context with a weekend fun car. This is a crucial point that most people on this thread seem to have missed. Personally I've never driven a daily driver car that I'd also be happy with on track days or to drive on a Sunday for the hell of it, so my car decision is always a two car decision. For example, I prefer driving the E90/92 M3 to a 320d, but if I had an M3 I'd be over £5k a year worse off on fuel alone and my fun car would have to go, so overall I'd be worse off, plus an M3 wouldn't do the daily duties as well, being noisier on the motorway for starters. Incidentally, what I mainly like about the M3 is the suspension and rear diff, so obviously a 335i won't cut it; for me the 335i is just a 320d with a heavier engine and less fuel economy, not to mention more grip to ruin my speed camera proof B road fun. I've been there and tried that and for me there's no point really. I do understand people's desire for a bit more power, or to own something that's fairly unusual, but those things just don't interest me.
What I find frustrating is how many PHers just can't empathise with other people's preferences and continue to bang on about badge and image etc, or how a car sounds, or their quest to do 0-60 in 5 seconds rather than 8. That's very nice, but please don't assume everyone thinks like you! I'm perfectly happy with the 320d's adequate power, modest grip, FE/RWD and a manual gearbox; especially with a 2-Eleven in the garage (shortly to be replaced by something faster). I'd genuinely be not having as much fun spending my £40-50k total spend on a Cayman S, 911, V8V, R8 etc, or perhaps a halfway point with a 330i and an Elise, or even going the other way and buying an old Mondeo or Passat and running something really special for the weekend like a 355, F3 car etc.
I've been driving for over 20 years and driven and owned loads of different cars and that's the conclusion I've come to. Chris has driven way more cars than me and he's also given his opinion in the video. Can people not accept our opinions on face value without assuming we're secretly interested in badge or image etc? Not everyone's the same.
Personally, once my boring practical criteria are met for a daily driver (tow bar, roof bars, folding rear seats, quiet on the motorway), I'm then primarily interested in driving and handling and for me a car must have rear drive, a proper manual gearbox and balanced weight distribution. There aren't many cars that meet these criteria (C Class, 3 series, RX8, XE.. err..). Power isn't of much interest to me - I've owned a 330i and other such cars and driven loads and to be honest the difference between the 330's 265/230 bhp and the 320d's 185/163bhp isn't really of much consequence to me, especially not in a daily driver that never gets taken on track and only rarely on an autobahn. Yes, I like a nice petrol engine but I never driven in towns so rarely hear the rattly idle of the 320d's diesel engine, and as previously discussed, drive by wire throttles have ruined most petrol engines now anyway.
Finally, note how Chris Harris finishes the video, by talking briefly about choosing a daily driver in context with a weekend fun car. This is a crucial point that most people on this thread seem to have missed. Personally I've never driven a daily driver car that I'd also be happy with on track days or to drive on a Sunday for the hell of it, so my car decision is always a two car decision. For example, I prefer driving the E90/92 M3 to a 320d, but if I had an M3 I'd be over £5k a year worse off on fuel alone and my fun car would have to go, so overall I'd be worse off, plus an M3 wouldn't do the daily duties as well, being noisier on the motorway for starters. Incidentally, what I mainly like about the M3 is the suspension and rear diff, so obviously a 335i won't cut it; for me the 335i is just a 320d with a heavier engine and less fuel economy, not to mention more grip to ruin my speed camera proof B road fun. I've been there and tried that and for me there's no point really. I do understand people's desire for a bit more power, or to own something that's fairly unusual, but those things just don't interest me.
What I find frustrating is how many PHers just can't empathise with other people's preferences and continue to bang on about badge and image etc, or how a car sounds, or their quest to do 0-60 in 5 seconds rather than 8. That's very nice, but please don't assume everyone thinks like you! I'm perfectly happy with the 320d's adequate power, modest grip, FE/RWD and a manual gearbox; especially with a 2-Eleven in the garage (shortly to be replaced by something faster). I'd genuinely be not having as much fun spending my £40-50k total spend on a Cayman S, 911, V8V, R8 etc, or perhaps a halfway point with a 330i and an Elise, or even going the other way and buying an old Mondeo or Passat and running something really special for the weekend like a 355, F3 car etc.
I've been driving for over 20 years and driven and owned loads of different cars and that's the conclusion I've come to. Chris has driven way more cars than me and he's also given his opinion in the video. Can people not accept our opinions on face value without assuming we're secretly interested in badge or image etc? Not everyone's the same.
By the bizarre logic of some people here why is it specifically the generic BMW 4 pot derv you need? Why not the merc / vw / audi?
I honestly couldn't think of anything worse than driving a 4 pot diesel and then trying to justify my choice as anything other than penny pinching. If you live on the motorway then fine, if not I don't want to listen to you bore me with how quick it is.
I'm sure a brand new media car feels super refined. Lets hear that rattly tractor engine after 3 years / 60k.
I honestly couldn't think of anything worse than driving a 4 pot diesel and then trying to justify my choice as anything other than penny pinching. If you live on the motorway then fine, if not I don't want to listen to you bore me with how quick it is.
I'm sure a brand new media car feels super refined. Lets hear that rattly tractor engine after 3 years / 60k.
I derive literally no pleasure from driving a 320d so wouldn't choose one over a £5k shed. The engine completely ruins a decent chassis for me. I would spend all my time life thinking 'I f
king hate this engine', so I might as well buy a much cheaper and worse car that I would also not enjoy driving!
Life is too short to spend hours of it listening to a nasty 4 pot diesel engine chugging away and belching poison.
king hate this engine', so I might as well buy a much cheaper and worse car that I would also not enjoy driving! Life is too short to spend hours of it listening to a nasty 4 pot diesel engine chugging away and belching poison.
KarlMac said:
By the bizarre logic of some people here why is it specifically the generic BMW 4 pot derv you need? Why not the merc / vw / audi?
I honestly couldn't think of anything worse than driving a 4 pot diesel and then trying to justify my choice as anything other than penny pinching. If you live on the motorway then fine, if not I don't want to listen to you bore me with how quick it is.
I'm sure a brand new media car feels super refined. Lets hear that rattly tractor engine after 3 years / 60k.
In answer to your points:I honestly couldn't think of anything worse than driving a 4 pot diesel and then trying to justify my choice as anything other than penny pinching. If you live on the motorway then fine, if not I don't want to listen to you bore me with how quick it is.
I'm sure a brand new media car feels super refined. Lets hear that rattly tractor engine after 3 years / 60k.
Audi and VW are FWD or 4WD, which for me would require hell to freeze over. I've driven most cars in their ranges and they're not for me. I'd recommend them to friends and they're good cars if you have different criteria (although I'd still argue that the Japs do it better), but not for me, no. People on this thread who are into badge and image etc have described the 320d as 'white goods', well I'm into handling and for me Audis and VWs are 'white goods' - utterly dull through the corners.
The Merc C Class is a decent car, but the BMW pips it in my opinion for driving pleasure, plus the BMW is much easier to find secondhand with a manual gearbox (an obvious consequence of the BMW attracting more keen drivers and the Merc less so). That's no surprise really and matches the conclusions of all the reviews I've ever seen.
Nobody's pretending that a 185bhp/380Nm car weighing 1350-1400kg is quick
, but the point is that it's quick enough for most road use, which let's face it, presents fewer opportunities than ever to stretch a car's legs. If we got rid of speed limits tomorrow I'd be looking for more power, but until that point even my older 320d with the 163bhp engine is just fine - it's corners I enjoy, not straights. Watch the twisty road sequence on the Chris Harris video - would he really have taken that any differently in a 330i? I love driving on the limit, and am on a track most months, but I can assure you that having driven twisty B roads (in fact that very road in the video) in both a 320d and a 330i that there's not really much difference through the corners - the engines weigh a very similar amount and the rest of the car is identical.On the mileage, mine's at 8 years and 123,000 miles and the engine, clutch and gearbox feel the same as when it was new.
HTH
Edited by RobM77 on Wednesday 24th June 16:28
I can't understand why anyone would spend their own money on a new 320d. The only reason to buy one is economy, the only reason for economy is saving money and buying a new BMW certainly won't do that no matter how many mpg it does. If you get a company car then fair enough, that's different. Don't get me wrong, on a practical level a 320d is a good car but it's the automotive equivalent of a washing machine, I'd never spend any more than the bare minimum on 'just transport' so I can't see why you'd pick one over a Kia or whatever other grey hatchback thing is currently the cheapest and most economical.
If I want basic transport for minimal cost I will buy something old and petrol powered and spend my money on fuel rather than depreciation. If I was spending £30k+ of my own money on a car then it should sound like god farting and look like pornography on wheels, certainly not an anonymous grey saloon that sounds like a canal boat.
If I want basic transport for minimal cost I will buy something old and petrol powered and spend my money on fuel rather than depreciation. If I was spending £30k+ of my own money on a car then it should sound like god farting and look like pornography on wheels, certainly not an anonymous grey saloon that sounds like a canal boat.
TurboHatchback said:
I'd never spend any more than the bare minimum on 'just transport' so I can't see why you'd pick one over a Kia or whatever other grey hatchback thing is currently the cheapest and most economical.
If I want basic transport for minimal cost I will buy something old and petrol powered and spend my money on fuel rather than depreciation. If I was spending £30k+ of my own money on a car then it should sound like god farting and look like pornography on wheels, certainly not an anonymous grey saloon that sounds like a canal boat.
Agree with everything here. The bit on bold is what I was trying to say (but TH did a much better job).If I want basic transport for minimal cost I will buy something old and petrol powered and spend my money on fuel rather than depreciation. If I was spending £30k+ of my own money on a car then it should sound like god farting and look like pornography on wheels, certainly not an anonymous grey saloon that sounds like a canal boat.
I'd also love to know where Rob is enjoying the limits of his world class RWD chassis that somehow doesn't require an appropriate engine to go with it
As regards speed, I don't think the 320d is fast enough (not if you mean that a faster car would not benefit the driver in normal driving). There are plenty of safe overtakes that can be performed with 300bhp but not with 180bhp. The same argument can, of course, be made for even more powerful cars, but the number of 'missed' overtaking opportunities dwindles fairly quickly once you are above about 200bhp/ton.
You don't have to go far to find a better car than the 320d - unless you do a lot of miles, the 320i, 328i and 335i are all better in ways that matter just as much as good handling.
Once you accept that a car has a huge flaw (the engine in this case), it is hard to say that it is any more objectively good than other cars that have different huge flaws. A petrol Audi might handle like a turd, but at least is wont sound like a canal boat and force particulate-heavy fumes down the throats of pedestrians.
You don't have to go far to find a better car than the 320d - unless you do a lot of miles, the 320i, 328i and 335i are all better in ways that matter just as much as good handling.
Once you accept that a car has a huge flaw (the engine in this case), it is hard to say that it is any more objectively good than other cars that have different huge flaws. A petrol Audi might handle like a turd, but at least is wont sound like a canal boat and force particulate-heavy fumes down the throats of pedestrians.
KarlMac said:
TurboHatchback said:
I'd never spend any more than the bare minimum on 'just transport' so I can't see why you'd pick one over a Kia or whatever other grey hatchback thing is currently the cheapest and most economical.
If I want basic transport for minimal cost I will buy something old and petrol powered and spend my money on fuel rather than depreciation. If I was spending £30k+ of my own money on a car then it should sound like god farting and look like pornography on wheels, certainly not an anonymous grey saloon that sounds like a canal boat.
Agree with everything here. The bit on bold is what I was trying to say (but TH did a much better job).If I want basic transport for minimal cost I will buy something old and petrol powered and spend my money on fuel rather than depreciation. If I was spending £30k+ of my own money on a car then it should sound like god farting and look like pornography on wheels, certainly not an anonymous grey saloon that sounds like a canal boat.
I'd also love to know where Rob is enjoying the limits of his world class RWD chassis that somehow doesn't require an appropriate engine to go with it
- A Kia would be front wheel drive and with really cheap and under-developed suspension; I care about handling, so I wouldn't want one. See my post above about people with difference preferences. On this subject though, if in your opinion a 320d is just like a Kia to drive (which I'm sure it is to many people, like my Mum for example), then are you saying that a 335i is just like a Kia, but with 300bhp? Identical chassis you see, just a more powerful engine.
- I quote: "RWD chassis that somehow doesn't require an appropriate engine to go with it" - that makes no sense at all - what has the speed down a straight got to do with handling in a corner?
I definitely don't need a 320d.
If I want to go off the beaten track, or lug garden stuff about, or have the confidence to get to work no matter what the weather I use the Defender.
To go to work where I want to do it cheaply I use the Smart Roadster (who says driving to work can't be fun?)
For family days out we use the Stage 2 9-3 Saab (quiet, very quick and acceptable handling).
And for the wife there's the 2 litre Cooper S.
One car won't do it all for us and I certainly wouldn't want a 320d to do any of it.
If I want to go off the beaten track, or lug garden stuff about, or have the confidence to get to work no matter what the weather I use the Defender.
To go to work where I want to do it cheaply I use the Smart Roadster (who says driving to work can't be fun?)
For family days out we use the Stage 2 9-3 Saab (quiet, very quick and acceptable handling).
And for the wife there's the 2 litre Cooper S.
One car won't do it all for us and I certainly wouldn't want a 320d to do any of it.
wormus said:
Why on earth would anyone settle for a 320d unless they had to? They're tiny inside for family duties and I find my arse does not fit in the seats. Horrible rattly rep mobiles.
I don't normally choose cars based on whether your arise fits in the seats - I barely know you! The reason they're small inside is because they're rear wheel drive - BMW compromise on interior space in order to get a better mechanical layout for handling. If you want to prioritise interior space over handling then most FWD/FE cars do this and you have loads of choice.
The fact that reps drive them is nothing at all to do with how the car drives. You may care who else owns a car, but not everyone does. I couldn't care less who drives a car, how common it is, etc, I just care about how the car drives. For example, plenty of old people and other non-car people own MX5s (my parents for example), but that doesn't make them bad to drive for a keen driver.
lostkiwi said:
I definitely don't need a 320d.
If I want to go off the beaten track, or lug garden stuff about, or have the confidence to get to work no matter what the weather I use the Defender.
To go to work where I want to do it cheaply I use the Smart Roadster (who says driving to work can't be fun?)
For family days out we use the Stage 2 9-3 Saab (quiet, very quick and acceptable handling).
And for the wife there's the 2 litre Cooper S.
One car won't do it all for us and I certainly wouldn't want a 320d to do any of it.
I presume you do understand that everyone has different priorities? If I want to go off the beaten track, or lug garden stuff about, or have the confidence to get to work no matter what the weather I use the Defender.
To go to work where I want to do it cheaply I use the Smart Roadster (who says driving to work can't be fun?)
For family days out we use the Stage 2 9-3 Saab (quiet, very quick and acceptable handling).
And for the wife there's the 2 litre Cooper S.
One car won't do it all for us and I certainly wouldn't want a 320d to do any of it.
There's no way I'd want a Saab 9-3 (whatever 'stage' it's at!), but I don't post on forums about how s
t they are just because I personally don't like them. That would be like me signing up to a web forum on TV soaps and then posting constantly how I can't stand them 
Limpet said:
A boring car that does actually go quite well in fairness to it. Especially when you consider drag races don't generally flatter diesels.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EUaPlGlSIk
It's as quick as a reasonably warm hatchback, but easier for the average unskilled driver to extract the performance. This is what makes them great at trundling up and down motorways, but ultimately rather boring and unsatisfying to drive (IMO obviously).https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9EUaPlGlSIk
RobM77 said:
I presume you do understand that everyone has different priorities?
Which means the OP's question is meaningless.RobM77 said:
- A Kia would be front wheel drive and with really cheap and under-developed suspension; I care about handling, so I wouldn't want one. See my post above about people with difference preferences. On this subject though, if in your opinion a 320d is just like a Kia to drive (which I'm sure it is to many people, like my Mum for example), then are you saying that a 335i is just like a Kia, but with 300bhp? Identical chassis you see, just a more powerful engine.
Edited by Mr2Mike on Wednesday 24th June 17:17
RobM77 said:
lostkiwi said:
I definitely don't need a 320d.
If I want to go off the beaten track, or lug garden stuff about, or have the confidence to get to work no matter what the weather I use the Defender.
To go to work where I want to do it cheaply I use the Smart Roadster (who says driving to work can't be fun?)
For family days out we use the Stage 2 9-3 Saab (quiet, very quick and acceptable handling).
And for the wife there's the 2 litre Cooper S.
One car won't do it all for us and I certainly wouldn't want a 320d to do any of it.
I presume you do understand that everyone has different priorities? If I want to go off the beaten track, or lug garden stuff about, or have the confidence to get to work no matter what the weather I use the Defender.
To go to work where I want to do it cheaply I use the Smart Roadster (who says driving to work can't be fun?)
For family days out we use the Stage 2 9-3 Saab (quiet, very quick and acceptable handling).
And for the wife there's the 2 litre Cooper S.
One car won't do it all for us and I certainly wouldn't want a 320d to do any of it.
There's no way I'd want a Saab 9-3 (whatever 'stage' it's at!), but I don't post on forums about how s
t they are just because I personally don't like them. That would be like me signing up to a web forum on TV soaps and then posting constantly how I can't stand them All I'm saying is that a 320d doesn't fit into any category we use a car for so in answer to the question posed by the title of the thread the short answer is "Yes I do need something more than a 320d" But for the seek of completeness an explanation was (I felt) required.
RobM77 said:
KarlMac said:
TurboHatchback said:
I'd never spend any more than the bare minimum on 'just transport' so I can't see why you'd pick one over a Kia or whatever other grey hatchback thing is currently the cheapest and most economical.
If I want basic transport for minimal cost I will buy something old and petrol powered and spend my money on fuel rather than depreciation. If I was spending £30k+ of my own money on a car then it should sound like god farting and look like pornography on wheels, certainly not an anonymous grey saloon that sounds like a canal boat.
Agree with everything here. The bit on bold is what I was trying to say (but TH did a much better job).If I want basic transport for minimal cost I will buy something old and petrol powered and spend my money on fuel rather than depreciation. If I was spending £30k+ of my own money on a car then it should sound like god farting and look like pornography on wheels, certainly not an anonymous grey saloon that sounds like a canal boat.
I'd also love to know where Rob is enjoying the limits of his world class RWD chassis that somehow doesn't require an appropriate engine to go with it
- A Kia would be front wheel drive and with really cheap and under-developed suspension; I care about handling, so I wouldn't want one. See my post above about people with difference preferences. On this subject though, if in your opinion a 320d is just like a Kia to drive (which I'm sure it is to many people, like my Mum for example), then are you saying that a 335i is just like a Kia, but with 300bhp? Identical chassis you see, just a more powerful engine.
- I quote: "RWD chassis that somehow doesn't require an appropriate engine to go with it" - that makes no sense at all - what has the speed down a straight got to do with handling in a corner?
The Kia/335i comparison is somewhat misleading, FWD Kias are obviously not designed to deal with 300bhp whereas the 3 series is. A better comparison would be 3 series vs Audi A4, with the 2.0l TDIs I would pick whichever was cheaper and comfier, between the S4/335i I would be much more interested in the handling and how they dealt with the power.
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