RE: Porsche 997 Carrera: Catch it while you can
Discussion
identity_crisis said:
CraigJ said:
Just a note for the others. When the car was PPI'd at at Strasse I was talking to the guy who checked my car. I asked if he saw a lot of bore scoring to which he replied "not really"
Now youve done it. He was clearly wrong and its a widespread epidemic with every car affected in some form and over 50% suffer failures at less than 60,000 miles 
St John Smythe said:
identity_crisis said:
CraigJ said:
Just a note for the others. When the car was PPI'd at at Strasse I was talking to the guy who checked my car. I asked if he saw a lot of bore scoring to which he replied "not really"
Now youve done it. He was clearly wrong and its a widespread epidemic with every car affected in some form and over 50% suffer failures at less than 60,000 miles You cant make bold statements like that which are clearly not true without being pulled up on it.
Nothing to do with Porsche...
I once bought a different brand of car (German) which had various reviews online for being a reasonably decent Q car. After a while it pretty much fell apart mechanically at 45k miles. The main dealer mechanics told me it happens a lot, with known fault codes, a track record of design flaws and cheap engineering, plus they wouldn't touch one with someone else's pole. The repair costs were almost as much as the car.
Yet not once did I ever find a word about these known faults prior to my purchase on PH. I wish someone would have posted up an honest review and saved me thousands of pounds. These days I do a lot more research. Frustratingly, this often results in me having to ignore various cars I had once thought of purchasing. Many of them German as it happens. Hey ho.
I once bought a different brand of car (German) which had various reviews online for being a reasonably decent Q car. After a while it pretty much fell apart mechanically at 45k miles. The main dealer mechanics told me it happens a lot, with known fault codes, a track record of design flaws and cheap engineering, plus they wouldn't touch one with someone else's pole. The repair costs were almost as much as the car.
Yet not once did I ever find a word about these known faults prior to my purchase on PH. I wish someone would have posted up an honest review and saved me thousands of pounds. These days I do a lot more research. Frustratingly, this often results in me having to ignore various cars I had once thought of purchasing. Many of them German as it happens. Hey ho.
In true PH style, I'm going to jump into a heated debate I know very little about !
I have looked at the possibility of owning one of these recently. I like the styling - they just look 'right'.
As mentioned earlier, I would have thought that any cars for sale with a rebuild (I presume the rebuild also includes a 'fix'?) would have this fact trumpeted in the classifieds. But I couldn't find any mention.
Either there aren't that many with a 3rd party rebuild,
or any rebuilds have been taken care of within the cloisters of the OPC and never mentioned again,
or there aren't that many,
or perhaps too much mention of oily bits actually hinders when selling blue chip motors?
In the TVR world (which I do know a bit about), any cars with proof of a rebuilt S6 engine by a trusted firm have this fact emphasised in classifieds and are sought after over those that haven't.
I have looked at the possibility of owning one of these recently. I like the styling - they just look 'right'.
As mentioned earlier, I would have thought that any cars for sale with a rebuild (I presume the rebuild also includes a 'fix'?) would have this fact trumpeted in the classifieds. But I couldn't find any mention.
Either there aren't that many with a 3rd party rebuild,
or any rebuilds have been taken care of within the cloisters of the OPC and never mentioned again,
or there aren't that many,
or perhaps too much mention of oily bits actually hinders when selling blue chip motors?
In the TVR world (which I do know a bit about), any cars with proof of a rebuilt S6 engine by a trusted firm have this fact emphasised in classifieds and are sought after over those that haven't.
swisstoni said:
In the TVR world (which I do know a bit about), any cars with proof of a rebuilt S6 engine by a trusted firm have this fact emphasised in classifieds and are sought after over those that haven't.
It is the same for these cars, a Hartech rebuild definitely adds value as they use better cylinder liners. Don't think there's ever been a story of a Hartech rebuilt engine going pop.I think the reason you don't see many of those cars for sale is because someone who's had to fork out £8k will generally keep his car for longer rather than selling it and taking the massive loss (a Hartech'd car will not command an £8k premium).
Shaoxter said:
It is the same for these cars, a Hartech rebuild definitely adds value as they use better cylinder liners. Don't think there's ever been a story of a Hartech rebuilt engine going pop.
I think the reason you don't see many of those cars for sale is because someone who's had to fork out £8k will generally keep his car for longer rather than selling it and taking the massive loss (a Hartech'd car will not command an £8k premium).
What is the actual cause for scoring? Something to do with the piston/ring design, lack of lubrication in the bores full stop, or too much thrust loading? or...I think the reason you don't see many of those cars for sale is because someone who's had to fork out £8k will generally keep his car for longer rather than selling it and taking the massive loss (a Hartech'd car will not command an £8k premium).
Cheers.
Just to add fuel to the fire I've had a 996 C4S, 996 Turbo and Cayenne Turbo and was very happy with all of them.
I then bought a 20,000 mile C2S that unfortunately went pop. I was very lucky that I got my money back(happened the week after I bought it) but to say I was pissed off was an understatement - I thought the car was great and was going to keep it in the garage for weekend use and had even bought a daily.
To my mind it is ridiculous that Porsche wash their hands of an obvious problem in the UK.
They didn't get away with it in the states
http://rennlist.com/forums/boxster-and-boxster-s-9...
I know quite a few car traders and none will touch a 997s.
It's a shame because they really are amazing cars!
I then bought a 20,000 mile C2S that unfortunately went pop. I was very lucky that I got my money back(happened the week after I bought it) but to say I was pissed off was an understatement - I thought the car was great and was going to keep it in the garage for weekend use and had even bought a daily.
To my mind it is ridiculous that Porsche wash their hands of an obvious problem in the UK.
They didn't get away with it in the states
http://rennlist.com/forums/boxster-and-boxster-s-9...
I know quite a few car traders and none will touch a 997s.
It's a shame because they really are amazing cars!
I liken it the the classic TVR speed six engine woes. Both are brilliant cars but you need to go in with your eyes open and realise that at some point you could be facing a big engine rebuild bill. Owners seem to be denying the problem with a "la la la" I'm not listening mentality and others are indicating that every engine will have issues. I suspect the truth is somewhere in between.
Having had a look on the various engine builder pages, most now offer solutions where they can re-line the cylinders on engine bank 2 which is where most of the bore scoring problems occur. They also offer a new re-designed IMS so if I were in the market for a £20k 997, I'd take it straight to one of the reputable builders and for £3-4k have them do the all the preventative work. For less than £25k you now have a car which you can enjoy without worrying about the engine blowing up. Still a bargain IMO.
Having had a look on the various engine builder pages, most now offer solutions where they can re-line the cylinders on engine bank 2 which is where most of the bore scoring problems occur. They also offer a new re-designed IMS so if I were in the market for a £20k 997, I'd take it straight to one of the reputable builders and for £3-4k have them do the all the preventative work. For less than £25k you now have a car which you can enjoy without worrying about the engine blowing up. Still a bargain IMO.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Unless I'm reading it wrong, that's not the prices I am seeing on the Hartech website and they give quite a few examples. In fact they suggest that if you haven't suffered from bore score already, a simple thermostat replacement to make the engine run cooler plus coolant bleed\replacement will give you all the protection you need. If it really does cost £10k, I am not sure how that figure is justified. Being generous if you spent £3k on parts that still leaves you with £7k for labour, that's 70 hours at £100 an hour which is 2 weeks worth. If your rebuilding engines week in week out and it takes you 2 weeks, your either doing it wrong or taking people for a ride.
Guvernator said:
Unless I'm reading it wrong, that's not the prices I am seeing on the Hartech website and they give quite a few examples. In fact they suggest that if you haven't suffered from bore score already, a simple thermostat replacement to make the engine run cooler plus coolant bleed\replacement will give you all the protection you need.
If it really does cost £10k, I am not sure how that figure is justified. Being generous if you spent £3k on parts that still leaves you with £7k for labour, that's 70 hours at £100 an hour which is 2 weeks worth. If your rebuilding engines week in week out and it takes you 2 weeks, your either doing it wrong or taking people for a ride.
That's the question that I asked earlier as well. If it really does cost £10k, I am not sure how that figure is justified. Being generous if you spent £3k on parts that still leaves you with £7k for labour, that's 70 hours at £100 an hour which is 2 weeks worth. If your rebuilding engines week in week out and it takes you 2 weeks, your either doing it wrong or taking people for a ride.
According to Hartech's price list, 3 new cylinders will cost you £3500 + 1400 + VAT = £5,880.
But as you're paying so much to get the engine out and rebuilt you'd probably want all 6 cylinders replaced, IMS done and some other little bits which will add up to almost £10k.
But as you're paying so much to get the engine out and rebuilt you'd probably want all 6 cylinders replaced, IMS done and some other little bits which will add up to almost £10k.
Fair enough, still seems excessive but I guess once the engine is opened up it's easy to get carried away.
Looks like the safest option is to get any prospective purchased checked with a borescope then if all is good, get a new thermostat fitted sharpish. It obviously won't eliminate the problem completely but could be a good compromise for at least some peace of mind.
If I was looking at paying another £10k to make my 911 "safe", I'd rather spend that on buying a gen 2.
Looks like the safest option is to get any prospective purchased checked with a borescope then if all is good, get a new thermostat fitted sharpish. It obviously won't eliminate the problem completely but could be a good compromise for at least some peace of mind.
If I was looking at paying another £10k to make my 911 "safe", I'd rather spend that on buying a gen 2.
joscal said:
Just to add fuel to the fire I've had a 996 C4S, 996 Turbo and Cayenne Turbo and was very happy with all of them.
I then bought a 20,000 mile C2S that unfortunately went pop. I was very lucky that I got my money back(happened the week after I bought it) but to say I was pissed off was an understatement - I thought the car was great and was going to keep it in the garage for weekend use and had even bought a daily.
To my mind it is ridiculous that Porsche wash their hands of an obvious problem in the UK.
They didn't get away with it in the states
http://rennlist.com/forums/boxster-and-boxster-s-9...
I know quite a few car traders and none will touch a 997s.
It's a shame because they really are amazing cars!
Can only imagine how annoyed you must of been!I then bought a 20,000 mile C2S that unfortunately went pop. I was very lucky that I got my money back(happened the week after I bought it) but to say I was pissed off was an understatement - I thought the car was great and was going to keep it in the garage for weekend use and had even bought a daily.
To my mind it is ridiculous that Porsche wash their hands of an obvious problem in the UK.
They didn't get away with it in the states
http://rennlist.com/forums/boxster-and-boxster-s-9...
I know quite a few car traders and none will touch a 997s.
It's a shame because they really are amazing cars!
Shaoxter said:
swisstoni said:
In the TVR world (which I do know a bit about), any cars with proof of a rebuilt S6 engine by a trusted firm have this fact emphasised in classifieds and are sought after over those that haven't.
It is the same for these cars, a Hartech rebuild definitely adds value as they use better cylinder liners. Don't think there's ever been a story of a Hartech rebuilt engine going pop.I think the reason you don't see many of those cars for sale is because someone who's had to fork out £8k will generally keep his car for longer rather than selling it and taking the massive loss (a Hartech'd car will not command an £8k premium).
I learned about the spectre of scored bores shortly after I'd bought my Cayman S.
I, like many I fear, went into it not even conceiving that a prestige marque like Porsche would churn out engines that aren't fit for purpose. It wasn't even something I'd considered during my due diligence. But here we are..
I ended up driving the car with kid gloves for the 90 days before you're allowed to put a Porsche warranty on it, which certainly took the shine off.
I, like many I fear, went into it not even conceiving that a prestige marque like Porsche would churn out engines that aren't fit for purpose. It wasn't even something I'd considered during my due diligence. But here we are..
I ended up driving the car with kid gloves for the 90 days before you're allowed to put a Porsche warranty on it, which certainly took the shine off.
Guvernator said:
I liken it the the classic TVR speed six engine woes. Both are brilliant cars but you need to go in with your eyes open and realise that at some point you could be facing a big engine rebuild bill. Owners seem to be denying the problem with a "la la la" I'm not listening mentality and others are indicating that every engine will have issues. I suspect the truth is somewhere in between.
Having had a look on the various engine builder pages, most now offer solutions where they can re-line the cylinders on engine bank 2 which is where most of the bore scoring problems occur. They also offer a new re-designed IMS so if I were in the market for a £20k 997, I'd take it straight to one of the reputable builders and for £3-4k have them do the all the preventative work. For less than £25k you now have a car which you can enjoy without worrying about the engine blowing up. Still a bargain IMO.
I think your logic is pretty sound (but your costs are too low). I've said many times, I went a slightly different route.... Bought the car, kept a slush fund, 5 years later haven't spent it - will still be annoyed if I do but it wont make it a bad car. There is no similar car that is bullet proof or doesn't have even higher service costs. Buy with your eyes open and some plan to cope with a problem if it arises (warranty or slush fund). Having had a look on the various engine builder pages, most now offer solutions where they can re-line the cylinders on engine bank 2 which is where most of the bore scoring problems occur. They also offer a new re-designed IMS so if I were in the market for a £20k 997, I'd take it straight to one of the reputable builders and for £3-4k have them do the all the preventative work. For less than £25k you now have a car which you can enjoy without worrying about the engine blowing up. Still a bargain IMO.
Yes its annoying that Porsche didn't make it perfect, but servicing and repair costs on an Aston or a Ferrari are also annoying. These cars are not Mondeos or Audi A4s.
Yep, still the cheapest high end sports car to both buy and run when you compare it to other top end marques and it will even have a decent stab at doing track work without falling to bits too.
Had a friend who regularly spent well into 4 figures keeping his Ferrari 430 maintained. Took it on a track day once too and it cost an eye-watering amount in consumables...and shortly after caught fire in his work car park, true story.
As long as the engine doesn't die on you, a Porsche is peanuts to run in comparison.
Had a friend who regularly spent well into 4 figures keeping his Ferrari 430 maintained. Took it on a track day once too and it cost an eye-watering amount in consumables...and shortly after caught fire in his work car park, true story.
As long as the engine doesn't die on you, a Porsche is peanuts to run in comparison.
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