RE: Porsche 997 Carrera: Catch it while you can
Discussion
Yep, I wouldn't consider buying any 911 that is effected by this issue, even from and OPC, unless I could get it thoroughly inspected including the oily bits inside. I don't know how common the issue is either but even if it's only 5%, any chance of ending up with a five figure bill is just too eye-watering to contemplate but then I'd do the same thing if buying any high performance car of this ilk anyway.
Perhaps Porsche should design an engine without compromise next time. Stacking the cylinders vertically would be a good start to get far more even cooling. Before the purists start screaming, I suspect there will be an all electric 911 before long. So tradition will be going out of the window at some point anyway.
Guvernator said:
Yep, I wouldn't consider buying any 911 that is effected by this issue, even from and OPC, unless I could get it thoroughly inspected including the oily bits inside. I don't know how common the issue is either but even if it's only 5%, any chance of ending up with a five figure bill is just too eye-watering to contemplate but then I'd do the same thing if buying any high performance car of this ilk anyway.
An inspection won't give you the protection you are looking for. It may spot early bore scoring - but its no grantee and there are other issues to be mindful of anyway. If you can't face the possibility of a 10k bill it really does steer you away from many cars of this kind. It's very, very easy to rack up these bills in a Ferrari or an Aston. If you're looking for cheap performance, I think you have to look at other more mainstream cars (and even then, you have to have your eyes open). I reckon this is the key issue, because the purchase price of these cars is now so low, they can look like a "bargain"... But they carry plenty of running cost and plenty of risk as they're relatively delicate and complex things. See them for what they are and not the "bargain" that some hope they are.
Autotrader are currently showing 626 - 997's for sale. Circa 214 are MK2's leaving 412 MK1's. Only 5 mention engine rebuilds in the ad.
This is as good evidence as you are going to get that it in 11 years since the model was launched only 1% have had engine rebuilds.
Obviously the other 99% could be waiting to lunch themselves but as they have last 7+ years already it suggest its certainly a case of the internet overhyping this issue.
I am looking to buy one next year so please ignore this evidence and keep talking them down.
This is as good evidence as you are going to get that it in 11 years since the model was launched only 1% have had engine rebuilds.
Obviously the other 99% could be waiting to lunch themselves but as they have last 7+ years already it suggest its certainly a case of the internet overhyping this issue.
I am looking to buy one next year so please ignore this evidence and keep talking them down.
Edited by ex1 on Wednesday 1st July 11:46
Hungrymc said:
An inspection won't give you the protection you are looking for. It may spot early bore scoring - but its no grantee and there are other issues to be mindful of anyway.
If you can't face the possibility of a 10k bill it really does steer you away from many cars of this kind. It's very, very easy to rack up these bills in a Ferrari or an Aston. If you're looking for cheap performance, I think you have to look at other more mainstream cars (and even then, you have to have your eyes open). I reckon this is the key issue, because the purchase price of these cars is now so low, they can look like a "bargain"... But they carry plenty of running cost and plenty of risk as they're relatively delicate and complex things. See them for what they are and not the "bargain" that some hope they are.
I've run high performance cars before, sure they all have their fair share of issues and will cost more to run than normal cars BUT there are issues and there are issues. Not all have engines made of chocolate or fall apart. Due diligence, a bit of research and you can run one for "reasonable" costs. £2-£3k a year to keep something highly strung on the road is almost expected, yes you CAN get unlucky with a £10k+ bill but I'd feel like a mug tbh.If you can't face the possibility of a 10k bill it really does steer you away from many cars of this kind. It's very, very easy to rack up these bills in a Ferrari or an Aston. If you're looking for cheap performance, I think you have to look at other more mainstream cars (and even then, you have to have your eyes open). I reckon this is the key issue, because the purchase price of these cars is now so low, they can look like a "bargain"... But they carry plenty of running cost and plenty of risk as they're relatively delicate and complex things. See them for what they are and not the "bargain" that some hope they are.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
In this instance an engine rebuild is a positive so I can't believe many people who were selling wouldn't mention it.
Having said all of that if you could talk them down by another £5k by March 2016 that would be great for me. Perhaps some supporting evidence would help? We must have some OPC technicians on here who can tells us about the 100's of engines they have replaced under warranty?
JMo22 said:
Terminator X said:
TX.
In a previous post I said that these figures were not accurate, but indicative. They wouldn't be a factor of 10 out either way. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_problemThis means that unless I'm catastrophically wrong about 1 or more of them in the same direction, the results are valid.
If you've got better numbers or assumptions, feel free to substitute them in and recalc. I've got no axe to grind either way and am on record saying it wouldn't stop me buying a 996/997.1
If not, then implying you disagree with the result without giving better reasoning smacks rather of head in the sand-ness.I can see their point of view though. If you are into 911 ownership for the long haul then you'd want as much discussion and research into the issue as possible so that you are forewarned and can do something about it.
If however you're only planning to keep the car for 2-3 years as I suspect most will be, then the last thing you'd want is to be constantly reminded that your car's engine could die tomorrow or people saying they have chocolate engines and therefore talking resale values even lower then they are.
If however you're only planning to keep the car for 2-3 years as I suspect most will be, then the last thing you'd want is to be constantly reminded that your car's engine could die tomorrow or people saying they have chocolate engines and therefore talking resale values even lower then they are.
ex1 said:
In my experience most of these cars are bought and sold by "enthusiasts", certainly a far greater % than majority of other cars.
Just not true in my experience. Sadly many people buy them as a status symbols, not enthusiasts in the slightest. This is a large part of the reason Porsche drivers are held in such contempt by many other drivers.And CMOOSE, have to agree with you on the AT rebuild theory, almost impossible to know how many cars advertised have had an engine replacement or rebuild.
LaurasOtherHalf said:
Rawhide said:
You would need a car with a 'Mezger' engine. This is not the 996/997 with the exception of the Turbo, GT cars. The 'Mezger' engine is derived from a GT1 block which is considered bulletproof.
This myth needs busting too. Mario149 said:
JMo22 said:
Terminator X said:
TX.
In a previous post I said that these figures were not accurate, but indicative. They wouldn't be a factor of 10 out either way. See here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_problemThis means that unless I'm catastrophically wrong about 1 or more of them in the same direction, the results are valid.
If you've got better numbers or assumptions, feel free to substitute them in and recalc. I've got no axe to grind either way and am on record saying it wouldn't stop me buying a 996/997.1
If not, then implying you disagree with the result without giving better reasoning smacks rather of head in the sand-ness.Having said that, my gut feel is it's less than 5%. In practicality I think you need a slush fund when you buy one (personally don't trust warranties), hope nothing major goes wrong in the first 3 years or send to any number of Porsche specialists for a new thermostat when you buy one if you're really worried. I didn't bother fitting a new thermostat to mine as local Porsche specialist said it was something like £400 and I figured that was more than the probability of me having a problem with the engine during my ownership x the cost of fixing said problem. Specialist also told that the fears are overblown and even multiple track days should be fine based on other customers' experience (try that in a Ferrari!!).
Within 3 years you may well have saved enough in servicing, maintenance costs vs most of the competition to pay for an engine rebuild or an engine from a Cat C / Cat D car to make up for it anyway. That's ignoring the fact that most similar cars will cost you twice as much in the first place. F355/F360, even 997.2 vs 997.1 and AMV8 not far off.
My head is very much not stuck in the sand. I thought all this through early last year and bought one. From looking at the classifieds it's gone up in value a similar amount to the total of my running costs, including a minor service and I won't be crying over spilt milk if I have an issue as I've gone in with my eyes wide open having seen a bore-scored 997 engine on a bench in a friend's Porsche workshop.
Prior to that I owned a Clio 182 Trophy for 5.5 years, more than doubled the mileage and sold it for £800 less than what I got it for!
Edited by JMo22 on Wednesday 1st July 14:39
ex1 said:
Autotrader ... Only 5 mention engine rebuilds in the ad.
I sold a car (not Porsche, but German) with a freshly re-built engine. I did not mention it in the advert for fear of putting people off. Far better to keep the crap reliability away from the conversation! Otherwise people will see there is a fundamental issue and look at other models. I know this because I have done exactly the same on various occasions. Secondly a lot of cars will have had engines replaced at the OPC under warranty.
In summary your guessed percentages are likely very inaccurate.
LordHaveMurci said:
Just not true in my experience. Sadly many people buy them as a status symbols, not enthusiasts in the slightest. This is a large part of the reason Porsche drivers are held in such contempt by many other drivers.
And CMOOSE, have to agree with you on the AT rebuild theory, almost impossible to know how many cars advertised have had an engine replacement or rebuild.
Fair point regarding stays symbols but I still think a higher % of 911 owners vs Vauxhall Astra owners are enthusiasts.And CMOOSE, have to agree with you on the AT rebuild theory, almost impossible to know how many cars advertised have had an engine replacement or rebuild.
ex1 said:
LordHaveMurci said:
Just not true in my experience. Sadly many people buy them as a status symbols, not enthusiasts in the slightest. This is a large part of the reason Porsche drivers are held in such contempt by many other drivers.
And CMOOSE, have to agree with you on the AT rebuild theory, almost impossible to know how many cars advertised have had an engine replacement or rebuild.
Fair point regarding stays symbols but I still think a higher % of 911 owners vs Vauxhall Astra owners are enthusiasts.And CMOOSE, have to agree with you on the AT rebuild theory, almost impossible to know how many cars advertised have had an engine replacement or rebuild.
k-ink said:
I sold a car (not Porsche, but German) with a freshly re-built engine. I did not mention it in the advert for fear of putting people off. Far better to keep the crap reliability away from the conversation! Otherwise people will see there is a fundamental issue and look at other models. I know this because I have done exactly the same on various occasions.
Secondly a lot of cars will have had engines replaced at the OPC under warranty.
In summary your guessed percentages are likely very inaccurate.
I accept the fact that some may not know their car has had a replacement engine.Secondly a lot of cars will have had engines replaced at the OPC under warranty.
In summary your guessed percentages are likely very inaccurate.
Most people seem to agree that one of the reason 997's offer such good value at the moment is the engine issue, but if you were selling one that had this problem rectified you wouldn't mention it?
Do Porsche have a heritage setup like Jaguar where you can check original body/engine/gbox numbers?
Is 'numbers matching' a thing in the world of Porsche? This would throw up engine changes.
Maybe not for car flippers, but for long term buyers I would think they'd be keen to know this sort of thing.
Is 'numbers matching' a thing in the world of Porsche? This would throw up engine changes.
Maybe not for car flippers, but for long term buyers I would think they'd be keen to know this sort of thing.
swisstoni said:
Do Porsche have a heritage setup like Jaguar where you can check original body/engine/gbox numbers?
Is 'numbers matching' a thing in the world of Porsche? This would throw up engine changes.
Maybe not for car flippers, but for long term buyers I would think they'd be keen to know this sort of thing.
I don't think matching numbers are quite so important on run of the mill cars. A 2.7RS or 964RS for sure.Is 'numbers matching' a thing in the world of Porsche? This would throw up engine changes.
Maybe not for car flippers, but for long term buyers I would think they'd be keen to know this sort of thing.
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