RE: Porsche 997 Carrera: Catch it while you can
Discussion
ex1 said:
Most people seem to agree that one of the reason 997's offer such good value at the moment is the engine issue, but if you were selling one that had this problem rectified you wouldn't mention it?
I am not sure. Probably not. If it were a TVR, I'd definitely mention it, as their buyers know the score very well. However a lot of Porsche buyers will be in the dark with regard to the issues, so may well be put off. On PH it is probably a different matter, as most should be clued up. But the larger market of used buyers out there may have no idea. A lot of people assume anything German is made to last forever and just buy into the badge / image.anonymous said:
[redacted]
A) Values of 997.1s have been going up for at least a year nowB) Why does a 2008 997.1 cost £30k and an equivalent 2008 997.2 cost £40-45k. Surely not just the front LED sidelights and LED rear lights? Maybe the engine perhaps? Neither have been the latest model for yonks - the 991.1 is about to be replaced.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I'd say you're showing the signs of somebody who hasn't looked very closely at this and put their money on the line in the last 18 months.I put the link in an edit of my last post but have a look again:
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds?Category=us...
Your overlap is more-or-less non-existent and you can get a 2008 997.1 C4S with 36k miles for £36k
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...
Same price is a boggo 997.2 C2...and there seems to be only one 997.2 that is cheaper.
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I know I posted the link to a clean 997.2 C2 for £36k with no options. I also put a link to a clean 997.1 C4S that was fully-loaded for £36k. I believe you were supposed to be disproving that an equivalent 2008 997.2 is £10-15k more than a 2008 997.1.You've made so many sweeping statements in this thread and every time you're asked to back it up....nothing.
JMo22 said:
They're not indicative either though. You were building spurious assumption upon spurious assumption and got to 4% and then just said data inacurracy means it's more likely 10-15%! I see no point in doing that "analysis", so I won't.
That's tosh and you're not countering my point, if you've got better data/info, use it. And one can only assume you didn't bother to read the link I posted. I came up with 4% and then when cmoose pointed out I might have significantly over estimated the number of 996s in the UK, I adjusted the value accordingly. And which of my assumptions are so spurious as to massively skew the number?
20K odd non-Mezger 996s in the UK? It's certainly not 2K or 200K
Hartech rebuilding a 1-2 996 lumps per week over a 5 year period? It's certainly not 1 per month or 1 per day
Hartech having a substantial but not over whelming portion of the rebuild market c.30%? It's not 3% and it's not 100%
Or what have I missed that you think may drop the final percentage massively?
Those figures above yield ~1200 rebuilds out of 20,000 cars = ~6% over a 5 year period
If Hartech and the rest of the country only rebuilt half the engines we assume, but only 10K 996s came to the UK, you still get 6%. If they rebuilt the numbers we estimate and there were still only 10K 996s, all of a sudden we're at 12%. None of these variations or sensible other ones appear to lead to the 1% or so that people hope they do. After playing with the numbers rather than fantasy guesses, I reckon 5% is the bare minimum of cars that have failed so far.
JMo22 said:
My head is very much not stuck in the sand.
You'll forgive me for saying that it didn't seem that way.JMo22 said:
I I won't be crying over spilt milk if I have an issue as I've gone in with my eyes wide open having seen a bore-scored 997 engine on a bench in a friend's Porsche workshop.
Good man 
As I say, even if I'm convinced it's a much riskier proposition than you, it still wouldn't stop me buying an M96/97. When I look at my 7.1 GT3 that's apparently worth £75K or so even selling privately, it does make a low £20Ks 7.1 C2S look ridiculously cheap, even if I did then spend £5K on making it how I like while also running the risk of a £10K rebuildanonymous said:
[redacted]
Nothing!Here is a £165k 997.1 http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...
£200k? http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...
Keep on insulting or dodging the question when you know you're wrong
Edited by JMo22 on Wednesday 1st July 18:49
Well I find this fascinating reading as a non owner and some good points made by all sides, that even as a 10 year PH veteran I have never seen before, so thanks to all for the useful info.
One question I have though, I am luck enough to have a best friend who is an engine builder as well as owns his own garage, built hundreds of engines over the years, we rebuilt my current 2 litre engine to run 400bhp for over 5 years now in competitive use as well.
So assuming we had zero labour costs, or a generous beer fund contribution
and access to a well equipped garage and machine shop for borign skimming etc what would parts costs be worst case for a 997.1 bore score rebuild?
20 years ago I bought the CA18DET engined S13 200sx which was famous for a chocolate bottom end, I've also run 2 RX8's included a PZ, let's not talk about failure rates on that engine please
and so it seems only natural I am attracted to cars with a reputation for engine issues, but sometimes the car and overall experience makes it worthwhile
One question I have though, I am luck enough to have a best friend who is an engine builder as well as owns his own garage, built hundreds of engines over the years, we rebuilt my current 2 litre engine to run 400bhp for over 5 years now in competitive use as well.
So assuming we had zero labour costs, or a generous beer fund contribution
and access to a well equipped garage and machine shop for borign skimming etc what would parts costs be worst case for a 997.1 bore score rebuild?20 years ago I bought the CA18DET engined S13 200sx which was famous for a chocolate bottom end, I've also run 2 RX8's included a PZ, let's not talk about failure rates on that engine please
and so it seems only natural I am attracted to cars with a reputation for engine issues, but sometimes the car and overall experience makes it worthwhile Edited by Scottie - NW on Wednesday 1st July 21:59
Looks like the top specialists are on the hunt for 997's:
'Strong sales mean we currently require new stock.
We buy all Porsches from the 1980's to the current day, in particular 997 model 911s (2004 onwards)'
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...
911 Virgin
'Strong sales mean we currently require new stock.
We buy all Porsches from the 1980's to the current day, in particular 997 model 911s (2004 onwards)'
http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...
911 Virgin
k-ink said:
After reading the full technical article posted above I have a lot of respect for Hartech. In summary they are fixing an awful lot of problems with Porsche's compromised engine design. The extent of Hartech's research, development and investment is quite something. It is quite mad these small companies have to fix all these issues from a giant manufacturer. No wonder the costs are high. You really should read it if you have not.
It is a shame many of these issues have been caused by clear penny pinching from Porsche, who must have known they were sailing very close to the wind. After all, their engineers are not stupid. I very much suspect it is a case of engineers being over ruled by accountants. Hence causing the entire mess and explaining their massive profitability. Lets just hope their future products are made with engineering excellence as a priority, instead of shareholder dividends. Otherwise their reputation will be ruined before long.
100% agree with all of thatIt is a shame many of these issues have been caused by clear penny pinching from Porsche, who must have known they were sailing very close to the wind. After all, their engineers are not stupid. I very much suspect it is a case of engineers being over ruled by accountants. Hence causing the entire mess and explaining their massive profitability. Lets just hope their future products are made with engineering excellence as a priority, instead of shareholder dividends. Otherwise their reputation will be ruined before long.
Get a tour up there sometime if you can. Its very impressive what they have built up, Barry et al have applied a proper engineering workshop/factory layout to the operation. The engine build operation is more or less a small scale production line similar to what I have seen myself in low volume manufacture.
Gassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff