RE: Porsche 997 Carrera: Catch it while you can
Discussion
k-ink said:
james28 said:
reading all the horror stories and even down to the porsche mechanics saying they would never buy one was slightly worrying.
This sums it up for me. Many of the so called premium cars are only so in terms of sticker price. On the whole high end cars appear overly complicated and under engineered. As a previous poster said, who cares. Stack em high and sell in huge volumes for huge profit. People only rent them on finance for a year or two anyway. They are a cheap disposable item not designed to last beyond their short warranty. It is only former glories and marketing hype which keeps people distracted.
k-ink said:
This sums it up for me. Many of the so called premium cars are only so in terms of sticker price. On the whole high end cars appear overly complicated and under engineered.
As a previous poster said, who cares. Stack em high and sell in huge volumes for huge profit. People only rent them on finance for a year or two anyway. They are a cheap disposable item not designed to last beyond their short warranty. It is only former glories and marketing hype which keeps people distracted.
And straight after my post more negative crap. Do you actually believe that? Porsche or premium brands just make cars to last the warranty then dont care after that. They tell there engineers to just make sure it just lasts beyond the warranty period and not to try and design and build something of high quality to a high standard that will further reinforce the brand they have worked so hard to build.As a previous poster said, who cares. Stack em high and sell in huge volumes for huge profit. People only rent them on finance for a year or two anyway. They are a cheap disposable item not designed to last beyond their short warranty. It is only former glories and marketing hype which keeps people distracted.
Its a pretty rediculous statement to be honest and on that note 'im out' with the first reply proving my point about this forum and its negative members.
Porsche profits are at an all time high, whilst their engineering build quality is in the toilet. I think anyone can spot the link. They are made down to a price point and sold in mass volume on finance lease deals. They know their original buyers will punt them on when their rental deal expires. So most new buyers (the only ones they care about) will be oblivious I suspect.
I am not saying this is designed to be the case from the outset, like some sort of conspiracy. Merely that it is an inevitable result of price cutting equating to shoddy engineering. I am certain the army of porche engineers could build a car to last without failure if the company were not run by accountants.
I am not saying this is designed to be the case from the outset, like some sort of conspiracy. Merely that it is an inevitable result of price cutting equating to shoddy engineering. I am certain the army of porche engineers could build a car to last without failure if the company were not run by accountants.
k-ink said:
So most new buyers (the only ones they care about)
Is that why you can still buy parts for 356,924/44/68,928, carrera,964,996......even down to oil specific for the model and year of car...?http://www.porsche.com/uk/accessoriesandservice/cl...
It would appear that they also care for owners of previous generations, perhaps more than any other manufacturer.
Can you give me examples of shoddy engineering within the porsche brand? The 996 and early 997's have had some engine problems in an unknown quantity. Other than that they are a very solid and reliable car with little other known issues.
They rectified the problems with the later 997.2 and the engines have now proven to be very reliable with only an issue with the 991 GT3's which were recalled. Porsche actually make most of there money from the options which can easily be £10,000 plus and their biggest seller is the cayenne.
I expected more from an alfa owner to be honest. Never has there been a brand that has had more pub talk and scaremongering yet they are actually good cars.
Cars are complex and with more emmisions resrictions, crash safety regulations along with customer expectations of wanting more power with better mpg and all the toys ofcourse things are going to go wrong. There isnt a brand out there that doesnt have problems with their cars somewhere down the line, its just that porsche charge alot and one of the issues with the earlier watercooled cars can bring up big bills. That doesnt make them a bad car it just means you have to go in with your eyes open and not run them on a shoestring.
If you believed everything you read on the internet and let it get into your head you would end up driving in a nissan micra. They are supposed to be bulletproof.
They rectified the problems with the later 997.2 and the engines have now proven to be very reliable with only an issue with the 991 GT3's which were recalled. Porsche actually make most of there money from the options which can easily be £10,000 plus and their biggest seller is the cayenne.
I expected more from an alfa owner to be honest. Never has there been a brand that has had more pub talk and scaremongering yet they are actually good cars.
Cars are complex and with more emmisions resrictions, crash safety regulations along with customer expectations of wanting more power with better mpg and all the toys ofcourse things are going to go wrong. There isnt a brand out there that doesnt have problems with their cars somewhere down the line, its just that porsche charge alot and one of the issues with the earlier watercooled cars can bring up big bills. That doesnt make them a bad car it just means you have to go in with your eyes open and not run them on a shoestring.
If you believed everything you read on the internet and let it get into your head you would end up driving in a nissan micra. They are supposed to be bulletproof.
Dusty964 said:
Is that why you can still buy parts for 356,924/44/68,928, carrera,964,996......even down to oil specific for the model and year of car...?
http://www.porsche.com/uk/accessoriesandservice/cl...
It would appear that they also care for owners of previous generations, perhaps more than any other manufacturer.
And why they offer cheaper servicing on older models?http://www.porsche.com/uk/accessoriesandservice/cl...
It would appear that they also care for owners of previous generations, perhaps more than any other manufacturer.
Having owned a 996 C2 and a 997 C2S I can happily say there are great cars.
Apart from normal wear and tear I had no problems with either car.
When I sold the 997 the new owner wanted an inspection. The car went to Strasse Leeds for a PPI and Bore scope. It had 80,000 miles on the clock and came back with a clean bill of health. I still miss that car and will certainly own another.
The 997 is a fantastic car and a great bargain. You are getting a 60k+ car for Mondeo money, but you have to remember it can come with 60K+ car running costs.
Apart from normal wear and tear I had no problems with either car.
When I sold the 997 the new owner wanted an inspection. The car went to Strasse Leeds for a PPI and Bore scope. It had 80,000 miles on the clock and came back with a clean bill of health. I still miss that car and will certainly own another.
The 997 is a fantastic car and a great bargain. You are getting a 60k+ car for Mondeo money, but you have to remember it can come with 60K+ car running costs.
Axel987 said:
Yeah Im sure the OPCs are stacking 997 longblocks just for the fun of it...
Nobody is denying that this is an issue, that it is unaceptable, or that a lot of cars are / will be affected.What is being criticised by myself and other are:
1) The assertion that every single engine has / will develop bore scoring and, more importantly...
2) The frequency with which it is brought up on this board to the point that it dominates this board and spoils a lot of people's enjoyment of their cars
I suspect that a lot of people are aware of the issue and still chose to keep a 997 so why not stop tainting our ownership experience and participation on this forum, by going on about it the whole time.
I think a lot of people have now received the message loud and clear that their engines may self destruct. Many of us chose to live with it.
Can you get the message that we are bored reading about it the whole time?
jakesmith said:
Axel987 said:
Yeah Im sure the OPCs are stacking 997 longblocks just for the fun of it...
Nobody is denying that this is an issue, that it is unaceptable, or that a lot of cars are / will be affected.What is being criticised by myself and other are:
1) The assertion that every single engine has / will develop bore scoring and, more importantly...
2) The frequency with which it is brought up on this board to the point that it dominates this board and spoils a lot of people's enjoyment of their cars
I suspect that a lot of people are aware of the issue and still chose to keep a 997 so why not stop tainting our ownership experience and participation on this forum, by going on about it the whole time.
I think a lot of people have now received the message loud and clear that their engines may self destruct. Many of us chose to live with it.
Can you get the message that we are bored reading about it the whole time?
My car has done over 100,000 miles on the original engine. But I guess it must be crap because the engines are made of chocolate and OPC are stacking longblocks.
Values of these have been going up for a year already.
I bought a nicely specced 2005 Manual C2S (GT Silver, Cocoa leather, PCM, Sport Chrono, BOSE, Sport Design wheels) with just under 40k miles for £25k in April 2014. Don't think you can get an equivalent for that now.
Haven't had a single problem and IMO the engine issues are over-hyped. Plenty of cars with worse reliability that don't get as much bad press.
I bought a nicely specced 2005 Manual C2S (GT Silver, Cocoa leather, PCM, Sport Chrono, BOSE, Sport Design wheels) with just under 40k miles for £25k in April 2014. Don't think you can get an equivalent for that now.
Haven't had a single problem and IMO the engine issues are over-hyped. Plenty of cars with worse reliability that don't get as much bad press.
Edited by JMo22 on Saturday 27th June 14:35
Any discussions now and in the future will always mention these issues. People need to realise that. It's going to be the footnote against the model: 997.1 - dodgy engine, prone to failure.
Not sure why owners seem to be moaning about this. if you don't like reading about these problems don't open the threads, but don't put down people talking about them. Prospective buyers have a right to know!
I still think it's bonkers how a supposedly quality manufacture like Porsche came to design and roll out a fundamentally flawed engine in modern times.
Not sure why owners seem to be moaning about this. if you don't like reading about these problems don't open the threads, but don't put down people talking about them. Prospective buyers have a right to know!
I still think it's bonkers how a supposedly quality manufacture like Porsche came to design and roll out a fundamentally flawed engine in modern times.
Axel987 said:
Ruined by facts 
The 997.1 is a great car with a s
te engine. Ask any Engine builder - A & P Sportmotoren, RS tuning, any of the big boys in Germany. They look like a deer in the headlights whenever you bring up the M96 and M97 engine. "Very bad engine, do not buy!"
THe problem with the 997.1 is that it is now out of warranty and available to people who will buy it on finance maxing their budget.I`ll tell you what, having a full loan, empty wallet and an engine that decides to pack it in is not a very nice thing and tends to color the ownership experience somewhat!
The clueless will go on about how the IMS problem is blown out of proportion, whereas that is easily rectified ( though burning a 2 grand hole in your pocket in the process).
Google BORE SCORING 997.
These so called engine specialists don't know anything. The PH experts are the ones to listen to The 997.1 is a great car with a s
te engine. Ask any Engine builder - A & P Sportmotoren, RS tuning, any of the big boys in Germany. They look like a deer in the headlights whenever you bring up the M96 and M97 engine. "Very bad engine, do not buy!"THe problem with the 997.1 is that it is now out of warranty and available to people who will buy it on finance maxing their budget.I`ll tell you what, having a full loan, empty wallet and an engine that decides to pack it in is not a very nice thing and tends to color the ownership experience somewhat!
The clueless will go on about how the IMS problem is blown out of proportion, whereas that is easily rectified ( though burning a 2 grand hole in your pocket in the process).
Google BORE SCORING 997.
Moose I am not, as you can see on this thread, the only one bored of your scaremongering on this forum. And it is scaremongering, which is spreading bad information, as I pointed out before.
You cleary know a lot about the cars and are very passionate about this issue, but I think you are misguided in your constant need to bring it up so much when the 997 is discussed, even given your previous point about educating people prior to purchase. Anyone researching this model online will find info about it, much written by your own fair hand.
You urge others to ignore 'disgruntled owners', but you are the one making me disgruntled with my car, as every time I look on Pistonheads for an interesting read, you are there, reminding me to keep £7k on standby for my guaranteed forthcoming engine failure. I doubt I am the only one now enjoying my car less as a result of this. You are also the one here that suffered engine failure so I consider that biases your point of view on this topic and should be taken into consideration by others when appraising your opinions.
I don't doubt your intentions, but I think if you're talking about balanced views, that maybe you should consider whether you are doing more good, or harm with your approach to this. A few buyers buying a car and having unexpected engine failure that they should be able to afford to sort if they did their research before buying... vs loads of current owners living in fear of the same.
You cleary know a lot about the cars and are very passionate about this issue, but I think you are misguided in your constant need to bring it up so much when the 997 is discussed, even given your previous point about educating people prior to purchase. Anyone researching this model online will find info about it, much written by your own fair hand.
You urge others to ignore 'disgruntled owners', but you are the one making me disgruntled with my car, as every time I look on Pistonheads for an interesting read, you are there, reminding me to keep £7k on standby for my guaranteed forthcoming engine failure. I doubt I am the only one now enjoying my car less as a result of this. You are also the one here that suffered engine failure so I consider that biases your point of view on this topic and should be taken into consideration by others when appraising your opinions.
I don't doubt your intentions, but I think if you're talking about balanced views, that maybe you should consider whether you are doing more good, or harm with your approach to this. A few buyers buying a car and having unexpected engine failure that they should be able to afford to sort if they did their research before buying... vs loads of current owners living in fear of the same.
caymanbill said:
The % is unknowable. The fact that there seems to be a small cottage industry centred around the rebuild of these things tells you enough IMO.
Also the creme de la creme of Porsche pre-purchase inspections, AKA peter Morgan, doesn't deem it necessary to check bores as part of his highly regarded serviceGassing Station | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff