My opinion on modern diesels. Do you agree?

[cerb4.5lee]

yonex said:

Jimboka said:

Sounds like you chose the wrong diesel.

I've driven many, to me they're just transport.

Spot on and they are just transport and the only time we have ever gone diesel is if we are doing over 30k miles a year and when we aren't its back to petrol straight away and we are currently doing 40k a year and other than the range I still hate diesels.

It surprises me how much love some have for a diesel because they are unrefined, noisy and vibrate like crazy at start up and make a terrible sound when compared to an equivalent petrol...they are just a tool to do a job and not a very good tool either!

[Ghost91]

Ghost91 said:

Do these 'fixes' cause the car to kick out a shed load of black smoke? Because if so I'm not keen on that either

[Tractor lad]

I've had several diesels; from an Astra 150 to a Defender 2.4TDCi, a 335d to an expensive VW 2.0 TDI but won't buy another.

They were good from around 2000-2008 then too much emissions nonsense killed the reliability - every one I've had bar the 335d has had spectacular failures and I REALLY look after my cars.

We now have two petrols - one a basic 2.5 Subaru (non turbo), the other an M135i which hasn't missed a beat on 19 months.

Diesel has had it's day. The usual PH "they don't rev, they sound rubbish, etc" isn't really a major concern for me - my 335d went pretty well. But constant EGR valve, DPF, DMF, swirl flap failures are. Modern diesels aren't fit for purpose.

[cerb4.5lee]

Ghost91 said:

I'm not talking about leasing a brand new diesel or buying a new one and using it as it's meant to be used (motorway style driving) I'm talking about the diesels a lot of people buy trying to 'save money' - the second hand, possibly clogged up diesel, some with expensive belt changes (TDI)

You make a good point and the diesels we have had have always done high miles daily and nothing has gone wrong with any of them(touchwood), buying a diesel to potter around in is false economy I think.

[OldGermanHeaps]

Removing a blocked dpf does not cause black smoke, insufficient air to burn all the injected diesel does, there is probably some other issue at play, air leak, sticking egr, low boost etc or perhaps just having a ford badge. My van just passed another mot, never smokes . Last year before replacing the turbo, remapping, decatting and an egr blank the smoke test was 0.9 and it was doing 37 mpg, this year with all that done 0.72, comes on boost 300 rpm lower, it can pull a higher gear, and 42-43 mpg. According to that test i am emitting less smoke, and also by burning less fuel i am emitting less carbon.
£30 remap http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/171812873590?nav=SEARCH
Balanced chra http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/131089111169?nav=SEARCH
I've done several, never had a problem. I flush oil beforehand, check flow, if its done 150k i might swap the oil pump, check for air leaks or clogged up map sensors etc, all the things that often get missed when a garage mechanic is trying to get the job turned over as fast as humanly possible.
You are all entitled to your opinions, but it is possible to run a modern diesel without breaking the bank.

Edited by OldGermanHeaps on Sunday 28th June 22:28

Edited by OldGermanHeaps on Sunday 28th June 22:39

[Magictrousers]

Run (Vauxhall) Diesel cars for over 10 years now, no real problems. Now in a 1.6d V70 and very happy. Do I close my PH account now?

[All that jazz]

Devil2575 said:

Ghost91 said:

If your after a fuel efficient petrol then a 1.8 focus isn't the best or quickest idea though I guess? But Id consider owning one now - 800 quid to buy, and the other X amount of pounds saved on purchase price could be used for fuel and still loads left..

My mechanic bought the 1.6 mk1 off eBay, won it for £350, nothing wrong with it, 100k on the clock. In a year and a half all he has done is cambelt it and change the oil, still going strong 30k later. When I took mine in for a service last week he had just got back from Devon in it. What good value motoring!!

I'll admit the Focus was a good car. We ran it from 50 to 120k and it was very cheap to maintain. You're right, not the most economical choice. Similar type of driving and my 1.8 Tdci Mk 1 Focus gets 55 mpg, which over the year we did 25k would have saved us over a grand in fuel. Over 5 years of ownership that would have been the cost of the car saved.

If luck is on your side, yes. In reality, probably no. Factor in the usual diesel problems such as needing new EGR/DMF/injectors/turbo at some point (take your pick which one) and depending on which bit breaks, most (or all) of your grand is wiped out. Also factor in diesel being more expensive than petrol reduces the cost per mile by a small margin and you'd have to listen to the noise of a tractor whenever you go anywhere which is always a downside unless you like agricultural machinery.

[OldGermanHeaps]

If any individual repair on a mk1 focus costs a grand you're doing it wrong.

[All that jazz]

OldGermanHeaps said:

If any individual repair on a mk1 focus costs a grand you're doing it wrong.

If you're buying new bits with guarantees and factoring in labour and VAT then a new turbo + fitting would quickly see most of that gone. A new DMF and clutch kit isn't that expensive generally for most run-of-the-mill stuff, but it depends what the access is like to fit them. I recently did one on my Astravan and it's a long job as the sub frame has to be dropped to get to everything. If you're paying someone to do it (as most people would) then the costs quickly mount up.

[briang9]

cerb4.5lee said:

Spot on and they are just transport and the only time we have ever gone diesel is if we are doing over 30k miles a year and when we aren't its back to petrol straight away and we are currently doing 40k a year and other than the range I still hate diesels.

It surprises me how much love some have for a diesel because they are unrefined, noisy and vibrate like crazy at start up and make a terrible sound when compared to an equivalent petrol...they are just a tool to do a job and not a very good tool either!

yep, very much this!! Could never see myself in a diesel..

[lbc]

Ghost91 said:

From my own personal experience I have found it cheaper running even large engined petrols as opposed to a modern diesel. The reason for this being the diesels I've had have all needed work doing including DMF, injectors, turbos, dpf and egr problems, etc.

How original.

Another Diesel V Petrol thread.

[OldGermanHeaps]

All that jazz said:

If you're buying new bits with guarantees and factoring in labour and VAT then a new turbo + fitting would quickly see most of that gone. A new DMF and clutch kit isn't that expensive generally for most run-of-the-mill stuff, but it depends what the access is like to fit them. I recently did one on my Astravan and it's a long job as the sub frame has to be dropped to get to everything. If you're paying someone to do it (as most people would) then the costs quickly mount up.

For the example 1.8 tdci focus a guarenteed balanced reman genuine garret turbo paying full retail including vat from euro car parts is ££294 and it could be done in 2-3 hours easily. Most people running bangers will probably know someone who could do it as a homer. But dont mind reality, keep spouting ste.

[ZX10R NIN]

I have to say 3.0 diesel aren't unrefined, I think you need to drive some & I'm not talking about a 2.0tdi,
Try a Jag XF-S 275bhp 450lb/ft Mercedes 265bhp 462lb/ft Audi 313bhp 491lb/ft all are refined.

Also DMF DPF EGR etc are all fitted to petrols now as N/A get more rare you'll start to see the same issues, even worse are the petrol cars with an electric turbine boosters etc

Edited by ZX10R NIN on Monday 29th June 00:23

[heebeegeetee]

lbc said:

How original.

Another Diesel V Petrol thread.

We don't get so many nowadays. They used to be thrice weekly, but now the bitter lot have taken up attacking cyclists, it seems.

PH deffo refelcts general society - there's a hell of a lot of people out there who aren't happy unless they're moaning. Diesels, cyclists, Top Gear, convertibles, Glastonbury, I don't like this, I don't like that, this is too hot that's too cold...

If you google Harry Enfield miserable old gits Images, the first result is from Pistonheads.
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=harry+enfield+mi...

[All that jazz]

OldGermanHeaps said:

All that jazz said:

If you're buying new bits with guarantees and factoring in labour and VAT then a new turbo + fitting would quickly see most of that gone. A new DMF and clutch kit isn't that expensive generally for most run-of-the-mill stuff, but it depends what the access is like to fit them. I recently did one on my Astravan and it's a long job as the sub frame has to be dropped to get to everything. If you're paying someone to do it (as most people would) then the costs quickly mount up.

For the example 1.8 tdci focus a guarenteed balanced reman genuine garret turbo paying full retail including vat from euro car parts is ££294 and it could be done in 2-3 hours easily. Most people running bangers will probably know someone who could do it as a homer. But dont mind reality, keep spouting ste.

On something that old now, yes I agree that the cost of a new blower would be pretty low, but for most reasonably modern and semi-modern run-of-the-mill stuff I think you'll find that they're a lot more expensive. A new Garrett turbo for my 9 year old BMW diesel a few years ago was just short of £800 from Andrew Page and they were the cheapest by £50.

The "reality" is that the vast majority of people don't have the knowledge, will nor time to take their engine apart and fix it themselves. Also factor in that space to work on modern engines is extremely tight for most of them and manufacturers loving to place stuff in such a way that it requires buying a specialist tool to remove unless you're happy to lose 3 layers of skin off your knuckles. Try removing the injectors from an Astra diesel for example and come back here saying it was a piece of piss and I'll call you a liar! Modern diesels are complicated beasts and unless you have a fully kitted out workshop with the tools and expertise needed to work on them then they'll cost you a lot of money to fix when they go wrong. That's not "spouting ste" as you so eloquently put it, but the truth.

[OldGermanHeaps]

All that jazz said:

On something that old now, yes I agree that the cost of a new blower would be pretty low, but for most reasonably modern and semi-modern run-of-the-mill stuff I think you'll find that they're a lot more expensive. A new Garrett turbo for my 9 year old BMW diesel a few years ago was just short of £800 from Andrew Page and they were the cheapest by £50.

The "reality" is that the vast majority of people don't have the knowledge, will nor time to take their engine apart and fix it themselves. Also factor in that space to work on modern engines is extremely tight for most of them and manufacturers loving to place stuff in such a way that it requires buying a specialist tool to remove unless you're happy to lose 3 layers of skin off your knuckles. Try removing the injectors from an Astra diesel for example and come back here saying it was a piece of piss and I'll call you a liar! Modern diesels are complicated beasts and unless you have a fully kitted out workshop with the tools and expertise needed to work on them then they'll cost you a lot of money to fix when they go wrong. That's not "spouting ste" as you so eloquently put it, but the truth.

Your assertion was that the turbo failing on a cheap 1.8 diesel focus would cost a grand. It just wouldn't if you are approaching it from any sensible angle. Theres no need for the diesel bashing, diesel, petrol, lpg, electrickery, it all has its place, they all have advantages and disadvantages, to sneer at other peoples choices when your assumptions are way off is out of order.

[All that jazz]

OldGermanHeaps said:

All that jazz said:

On something that old now, yes I agree that the cost of a new blower would be pretty low, but for most reasonably modern and semi-modern run-of-the-mill stuff I think you'll find that they're a lot more expensive. A new Garrett turbo for my 9 year old BMW diesel a few years ago was just short of £800 from Andrew Page and they were the cheapest by £50.

The "reality" is that the vast majority of people don't have the knowledge, will nor time to take their engine apart and fix it themselves. Also factor in that space to work on modern engines is extremely tight for most of them and manufacturers loving to place stuff in such a way that it requires buying a specialist tool to remove unless you're happy to lose 3 layers of skin off your knuckles. Try removing the injectors from an Astra diesel for example and come back here saying it was a piece of piss and I'll call you a liar! Modern diesels are complicated beasts and unless you have a fully kitted out workshop with the tools and expertise needed to work on them then they'll cost you a lot of money to fix when they go wrong. That's not "spouting ste" as you so eloquently put it, but the truth.

Your assertion was that the turbo failing on a cheap 1.8 diesel focus would cost a grand. It just wouldn't if you are approaching it from any sensible angle. Theres no need for the diesel bashing, diesel, petrol, lpg, electrickery, it all has its place, they all have advantages and disadvantages, to sneer at other peoples choices when your assumptions are way off is out of order.

Saying you can repair some old stbox Focus diesel for buttons is also not relevant to the thread when it's specifically about modern diesels, as it clearly says in the title. It doesn't matter how you try to dress it up you're not going to be sourcing and fitting a brand new genuine turbo on any modern (within last 5 years or so) Ford diesel for a few hundred quid, nor a DMF, nor a DPF, nor injectors.

[OldGermanHeaps]

If we are talking cars under 5 most of that should be under warranty, and petrols under 5 are getting more and more complicated and unreliable and expensive to fix with direct injection and turbocharging. Nice to see you calling someones trusty family transport a stbox just because it doesn't cost as much to fix as your bmw, classy.

[Ghost91]

lbc said:

How original.

Another Diesel V Petrol thread.

I wouldn't know, I haven't been on here long enough to of ever seen another thread.

It's been popular enough with a lot of users contributing, including yourself, so in the nicest possible way, who gives a rats ass.

And to the guy who said Its complaining - I was not moaning about diesels, just giving my opinion and getting other peoples opinion to form a more balanced one for myself. I have had diesels so can speak from personal experience --and am considering buying another one inspite of my previous history with them (mercedes 2.7 without dpf, dmf) having had some advice on this thread and also driven one/done the maths for myself. So I've had a bit of helpful information from the post, no reason why I shouldn't of posted it. The only ones moaning are the ones moaning about the thread itself. Cheer up.

[Pistom]

Seems to have turned into a moaning about moaning thread.

I personally don't have any issue about what people want to discuss here. It's all part of PH and if I don't like it I FO.

Anyway, back to the thread.

Yes, in the interest of meeting laboratory figures, notice I don't say efficiency, complicated cars have become even more complicated. They can be expensive to fix.

All of this is just adding fuel to the great con that the motoring industry has become.

I'm not saying there is some conspiracy but it almost seems like there is a conspiracy.

At the one end, there are incentives to build cars that look efficient in the lab so the tax paid is little. This also gives marketing the ammunition to make the newer models seem cost effective so con the new buyer into buying a car which doesn't get close to claimed mpg.

At one time, you could buy a car that the manufacturer said could do 50mpg, and it would do 50mpg. Now, they say it can do 70mpg but in reality, you never see more than 55mpg.

Then there is the servicing. Diesels with 18K intervals, auto boxes sealed for life. All total bks geared around a short useful life.

Repairs reliant on software solutions so you must use a well equipped garage. Then, the biggest con, the manufacturers software update, only available to franchised garages.

Sorry, the biggest con is releasing enough component data so copy parts can be made but not enough to make them properly. So you have dozens of copy fuel filters that will fit a Mondeo but the copy one doesn't have the micro porous membrane element which prevents fine particles into the system, knackering the pump and injectors.

Then there is how cars are sold. We have the con of the PCP and the over inflated manufacture supported propping up of used prices together with restricting the supply of models to keep prices high. All supporting the new car bought through a PCP.

All the above is bks of course but this is PH.

To sum up, I just like diesels. I like their power delivery which suits the journeys I make.

I've not yet suffered an expensive diesel bill, those who I know have, have usually either used the car inappropriately eg getting a diesel to do 2K a year on a daily commute or have just not had the cars properly maintained.