My opinion on modern diesels. Do you agree?
Discussion
I was following a 64 reg Passat TDI the other day, he seemed to be enjoying his torque..
Was on a bypass behind traffic, he'd drop back then the car would suddenly shoot forward for about 2 seconds, must of run out of revs..
Pulled off a roundabout and he went to pass a car, it went well till he practically stopped halfway alongside, a second later it shot forward again - must of changed up!
When his pass was complete should of seen his face when i did them both in one gear! He must not of been impressed the way he shot back past me at well over 100mph a few hundred yards down the road. I bet I was even doing better MPG at that point!
Was on a bypass behind traffic, he'd drop back then the car would suddenly shoot forward for about 2 seconds, must of run out of revs..
Pulled off a roundabout and he went to pass a car, it went well till he practically stopped halfway alongside, a second later it shot forward again - must of changed up!
When his pass was complete should of seen his face when i did them both in one gear! He must not of been impressed the way he shot back past me at well over 100mph a few hundred yards down the road. I bet I was even doing better MPG at that point!
I've owned three diesel cars over the past 8 years and despite the fact that they have all been Citroens there have been no problems that have been diesel related. Actually, that's a lie. A message about low FAP additive has been coming up for the past few weeks when I start the engine. I'll get it looked at soon...
Anyway, my current car has a V6 diesel, and whilst it is not the sort of car where you would open the windows whilst accelerating hard through a tunnel, it is certainly not unrefined.
With regard to the restricted power band with diesels, my default approach to making progress comes from many years of driving small Italian cars, i.e. low gears and engine bouncing off the rev limiter. This doesn't suit diesels, but the current car is an automatic so that's not a problem either.
So in summary, diesels are rubbish if you want a car to drive for the sake of it, but as a car to waft you to and from places, they're OK.
Anyway, my current car has a V6 diesel, and whilst it is not the sort of car where you would open the windows whilst accelerating hard through a tunnel, it is certainly not unrefined.
With regard to the restricted power band with diesels, my default approach to making progress comes from many years of driving small Italian cars, i.e. low gears and engine bouncing off the rev limiter. This doesn't suit diesels, but the current car is an automatic so that's not a problem either.
So in summary, diesels are rubbish if you want a car to drive for the sake of it, but as a car to waft you to and from places, they're OK.
Ghost91 said:
I wouldn't know, I haven't been on here long enough to of ever seen another thread.
It's been popular enough with a lot of users contributing, including yourself, so in the nicest possible way, who gives a rats ass.
And to the guy who said Its complaining - I was not moaning about diesels, just giving my opinion and getting other peoples opinion to form a more balanced one for myself. I have had diesels so can speak from personal experience --and am considering buying another one inspite of my previous history with them (mercedes 2.7 without dpf, dmf) having had some advice on this thread and also driven one/done the maths for myself. So I've had a bit of helpful information from the post, no reason why I shouldn't of posted it. The only ones moaning are the ones moaning about the thread itself. Cheer up.
We're just keeping you informed that for years and years there would be three threads a week such as this, all saying exactly the same thing for thread after thread after thread. I think now that pretty much everyone agrees that modern diesels are to be avoided these threads have quietened right down. It's been popular enough with a lot of users contributing, including yourself, so in the nicest possible way, who gives a rats ass.
And to the guy who said Its complaining - I was not moaning about diesels, just giving my opinion and getting other peoples opinion to form a more balanced one for myself. I have had diesels so can speak from personal experience --and am considering buying another one inspite of my previous history with them (mercedes 2.7 without dpf, dmf) having had some advice on this thread and also driven one/done the maths for myself. So I've had a bit of helpful information from the post, no reason why I shouldn't of posted it. The only ones moaning are the ones moaning about the thread itself. Cheer up.
My perspective is that I feel the b
ds have won. For the mundane daily duties it seems I have to return to something small, or that won't move unless it's revving it's nuts off, or needs refuelling every 5 minutes. :-( I've had quite a few diesels over my motoring "career" and the last two I've had (12 and 14 plate Merc SLK diesels (twin turbo, 2.2 litres + 7 speed auto) really are excellent; they go like stink and fuel economy, especially commuting, is fantastic. I get mid 60s mpg commuting. It is so cheap to run; very impressed.
I've never had an engine or related problem with either. However I think the acid test is this: "would I want to own one out of warranty?". Answer: No.
I've never had an engine or related problem with either. However I think the acid test is this: "would I want to own one out of warranty?". Answer: No.
heebeegeetee said:
We're just keeping you informed that for years and years there would be three threads a week such as this, all saying exactly the same thing for thread after thread after thread. I think now that pretty much everyone agrees that modern diesels are to be avoided these threads have quietened right down.
My perspective is that I feel the bds have won. For the mundane daily duties it seems I have to return to something small, or that won't move unless it's revving it's nuts off, or needs refuelling every 5 minutes. :-(
I found that after having a diesel for the mundane stuff when using a petrol for the same journeys I resented filling up at around 300 miles instead of 500, but when I want to have some fun on four wheels I'll take the Petrol everytime.My perspective is that I feel the b
ds have won. For the mundane daily duties it seems I have to return to something small, or that won't move unless it's revving it's nuts off, or needs refuelling every 5 minutes. :-( If I was in a position where I could only have one car then I'd be heading straight for the Alpina showroom & ordering a D3.
ZX10R NIN said:
I found that after having a diesel for the mundane stuff when using a petrol for the same journeys I resented filling up at around 300 miles instead of 500, but when I want to have some fun on four wheels I'll take the Petrol everytime.
Me too, exactly the same. My petrols would struggle to do much more than 250 miles on a tank. My mgb and Boxster can or could do 300 on a tank, but I don't want to use either for the daily grind.I totally agree that diesels are a tool for a job. I've always said derv for the work, petrol for the toys and lawn mowers :-).
I doubt I'll have another diesel. Might have a new smart car. Bet it won't be as economical as my old Bora. :-)
OldGermanHeaps said:
Removing a blocked dpf does not cause black smoke, insufficient air to burn all the injected diesel does, there is probably some other issue at play, air leak, sticking egr, low boost etc or perhaps just having a ford badge. My van just passed another mot, never smokes . Last year before replacing the turbo, remapping, decatting and an egr blank the smoke test was 0.9 and it was doing 37 mpg, this year with all that done 0.72, comes on boost 300 rpm lower, it can pull a higher gear, and 42-43 mpg. According to that test i am emitting less smoke, and also by burning less fuel i am emitting less carbon.
£30 remap http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/171812873590?nav=SEARCH
Balanced chra http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/131089111169?nav=SEARCH
I've done several, never had a problem. I flush oil beforehand, check flow, if its done 150k i might swap the oil pump, check for air leaks or clogged up map sensors etc, all the things that often get missed when a garage mechanic is trying to get the job turned over as fast as humanly possible.
You are all entitled to your opinions, but it is possible to run a modern diesel without breaking the bank.
£30 remap via eBay...what could possibly go wrong £30 remap http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/171812873590?nav=SEARCH
Balanced chra http://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/131089111169?nav=SEARCH
I've done several, never had a problem. I flush oil beforehand, check flow, if its done 150k i might swap the oil pump, check for air leaks or clogged up map sensors etc, all the things that often get missed when a garage mechanic is trying to get the job turned over as fast as humanly possible.
You are all entitled to your opinions, but it is possible to run a modern diesel without breaking the bank.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 28th June 22:28
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 28th June 22:39
What you are saying is as long as you are prepared to do a lot of work on your own cars it's possible to keep the costs down...well I never. The fact that you have to kind of backs up the point everyone is making about the issues with them.
yonex said:
Weren't the 205 and 309 offered as 'GTD' in Europe? For most a modern diesel is fine, it'll be at 50-80K when the over stressed turbos, DMF, EGR, DPF etc start to fail.
Old school diesels were great. This obsession with emissions renders them less reliable than petrol.
An obsession with trying to reduce the nasty sOld school diesels were great. This obsession with emissions renders them less reliable than petrol.
te pumped out the exhaust is a good obsession though.I'd be interested to see how much an aftermarket warranty costs for a diesel and the equivalent petrol model.
There's an awful lot of talk of diesels being less relaible but it's all anecdotal as far as I can tell. At least warranty information might give an idea as to the relative failure rates.
50-80k? The used market is full of modern diesels with far more miles on the clock. I know a bloke who ran a Diesel Merc C class for about 300,000 miles. Not an old school diesel, one of these new unreliable ones that always fail all the time
Devil2575 said:
An obsession with trying to reduce the nasty ste pumped out the exhaust is a good obsession though.
I'd be interested to see how much an aftermarket warranty costs for a diesel and the equivalent petrol model.
There's an awful lot of talk of diesels being less relaible but it's all anecdotal as far as I can tell. At least warranty information might give an idea as to the relative failure rates.
50-80k? The used market is full of modern diesels with far more miles on the clock. I know a bloke who ran a Diesel Merc C class for about 300,000 miles. Not an old school diesel, one of these new unreliable ones that always fail all the time
So keep driving them te pumped out the exhaust is a good obsession though.I'd be interested to see how much an aftermarket warranty costs for a diesel and the equivalent petrol model.
There's an awful lot of talk of diesels being less relaible but it's all anecdotal as far as I can tell. At least warranty information might give an idea as to the relative failure rates.
50-80k? The used market is full of modern diesels with far more miles on the clock. I know a bloke who ran a Diesel Merc C class for about 300,000 miles. Not an old school diesel, one of these new unreliable ones that always fail all the time
The focus has shifted from carbon dioxide to nitrogen dioxide, which diesels chuck out. We had an Audi A3 1.6D a couple of years ago, it felt pretty stressed and I wouldn't fancy the long term reliability. Most scary stories these days revolve around big diesel engines.
yonex said:
So keep driving them
The focus has shifted from carbon dioxide to nitrogen dioxide, which diesels chuck out. We had an Audi A3 1.6D a couple of years ago, it felt pretty stressed and I wouldn't fancy the long term reliability. Most scary stories these days revolve around big diesel engines.
The focus hasn't shifted, it's simply been recognised that both are important. The focus has shifted from carbon dioxide to nitrogen dioxide, which diesels chuck out. We had an Audi A3 1.6D a couple of years ago, it felt pretty stressed and I wouldn't fancy the long term reliability. Most scary stories these days revolve around big diesel engines.
I wonder how much of the "All of the horror stores are around diesel engines" is caused by the fact that for certain makes/models the vast majority of cars sold are diesels. Compare how many petrol Mondeos there are compared to diesels for example, and it's been that way since the Mk3.
To be honest if you dig deep enough you'll find a horror story about any engine. I work with a bloke with a 2009 325i which is having major problems and costing him well into 4 figures. How many people would assume that as it's a big, relatively unstressed petrol engine that it would be trouble free. He's certainly not alone with this engine either.
Devil2575 said:
The focus hasn't shifted, it's simply been recognised that both are important.
I wonder how much of the "All of the horror stores are around diesel engines" is caused by the fact that for certain makes/models the vast majority of cars sold are diesels. Compare how many petrol Mondeos there are compared to diesels for example, and it's been that way since the Mk3.
To be honest if you did deep enough you'll find a horror story about any engine. I work with a bloke with a 2009 325i which is having major problems and costing him well into 4 figures. How many people would assume that as it's a big, relatively unstressed petrol engine that it would be trouble free. He's certainly not alone with this engine either.
Of course it has. The hysteria over Carbon Dioxide and ludicrous bashing of the motorist was all the rage 15 years ago. Suddenly the magical diesel became the engine of choice, now they're not. I have never really liked them, apart from the early ones which had an honest shove and solid economy. These days the electronics and penny pinched hardware is going to be a nightmare once the car gets older, BMW, Mercedes they all have their issues. I'm glad you bought up the Ford TDCi, a friend of mine had one in a Focus (2010) from new and it was always in the garage and proved to have very average economy. I wonder how much of the "All of the horror stores are around diesel engines" is caused by the fact that for certain makes/models the vast majority of cars sold are diesels. Compare how many petrol Mondeos there are compared to diesels for example, and it's been that way since the Mk3.
To be honest if you did deep enough you'll find a horror story about any engine. I work with a bloke with a 2009 325i which is having major problems and costing him well into 4 figures. How many people would assume that as it's a big, relatively unstressed petrol engine that it would be trouble free. He's certainly not alone with this engine either.
It's a thread of opinions but I have seen more issues with modern diesel cars than petrol ones. I have had both and prefer petrol, I am not trying to make your mind up
Devil2575 said:
The focus hasn't shifted, it's simply been recognised that both are important.
The law of unintended consequences has bitten them on the arse - they put into place policies intended to discourage the use of vehicles with high CO2 which pushed people into cars with high NOx. Saving the planet at the expense of urban air quality. I'm sceptical that nobody foresaw this, but suspect that they were not listened to.The thing is diesels are more complicated than petrol engines. Obviously these new diesels with their DPF filters are a complete no go if you're not doing many miles and only doing short town journeys. But even with a pre-DPF diesels there's still more to potentially go wrong compared to the equivalent petrol.
They're made to chew up miles and be at constant speed. That's what they're designed for and the engines designed around for that purpose alone. It can be a bit of a shame as some people like the characteristics of a diesel. But I've always said the only time i'll be owning one is when i justify the mileage for one.
They're made to chew up miles and be at constant speed. That's what they're designed for and the engines designed around for that purpose alone. It can be a bit of a shame as some people like the characteristics of a diesel. But I've always said the only time i'll be owning one is when i justify the mileage for one.
daemon said:
Which is great and a very gung ho statement to make, but if you were subsequently doing 25K miles a year i suspect you will think otherwise.
Paying out a fortune in fuel every month gets very boring very quickly.
I've owned both, it isn't gung ho it's based on facts. My diesel depreciated faster than I could spend the same amount on fuel. The difference in TCO of a 50 mpg and 35 mpg car (this engine will do a genuine 40 mpg on the motorway), is negligible. But I'm not doing 25k, and most people who buy these high performance diesels are not either. If you are in the 0-12k a year bracket, petrol makes more sense. Paying out a fortune in fuel every month gets very boring very quickly.
Less than 12k a year, then you get the added expense of the fuel, running costs and genuine crap sound for no real benefit - if you are doing a genuine 25k+ a year, then any car will lose a huge amount of value regardless. In that instance get a blue motion golf/passat and drive it into the ground.
If you took a 325i/330i or equiv. vs a 320d/325d, the petrol will on average be £2k-£4k less (second hand-09/12 plate). 12k miles in the diesel is very roughly £1270 (50 mpg average, although my 320d was 42 average with town). Petrol at 30 mpg average will cost 2k per year. An apparent saving of ~£700 per year. On face value that seems great, although it would take over 5 years to break even with the extra cost of the diesel. In 5 years both cars are worth considerably less. You've also had 5 years of DPF and high pressure diesel. In all likelihood you would have to replace the DPF and/or something else expensive. Due to the prices of the cars (assuming used, not leased), in this instance, due to the petrol being perceived as less attractive, it's a myth that the diesel is cheaper for a considerable number of commuters.
For new/leased cars this isn't so applicable.
Edited by stuart-b on Monday 29th June 18:15
otolith said:
Devil2575 said:
The focus hasn't shifted, it's simply been recognised that both are important.
The law of unintended consequences has bitten them on the arse - they put into place policies intended to discourage the use of vehicles with high CO2 which pushed people into cars with high NOx. Saving the planet at the expense of urban air quality. I'm sceptical that nobody foresaw this, but suspect that they were not listened to.TX.
culpz said:
The thing is diesels are more complicated than petrol engines.
Not really, they don't need an ignition system, they just compress air in the cylinders to a greater degree which gets so hot that when fuel is injected it ignites. Things operate at higher pressures but that's not a problem, alternatively petrols operate at higher temperatures but that's not a problem either.However, unreliabilty with ignition is a thing of the past, as are carburettors etc obviously, so petrols have caught up in reliability stakes.
The current trend with ever higher (and needless imo) power outputs and emissions has dented the reliabilty of diesels (indeed possibly both). Both petrol and diesel engines are now very complex, but I too now think that dpfs (and egr) systems just don't work, so I really don't think I'd buy a diesel now.
heebeegeetee said:
Not really, they don't need an ignition system, they just compress air in the cylinders to a greater degree which gets so hot that when fuel is injected it ignites. Things operate at higher pressures but that's not a problem, alternatively petrols operate at higher temperatures but that's not a problem either.
However, unreliabilty with ignition is a thing of the past, as are carburettors etc obviously, so petrols have caught up in reliability stakes.
The current trend with ever higher (and needless imo) power outputs and emissions has dented the reliabilty of diesels (indeed possibly both). Both petrol and diesel engines are now very complex, but I too now think that dpfs (and egr) systems just don't work, so I really don't think I'd buy a diesel now.
They work perfectly...a fairy light comes in and you have to take it to the dealer However, unreliabilty with ignition is a thing of the past, as are carburettors etc obviously, so petrols have caught up in reliability stakes.
The current trend with ever higher (and needless imo) power outputs and emissions has dented the reliabilty of diesels (indeed possibly both). Both petrol and diesel engines are now very complex, but I too now think that dpfs (and egr) systems just don't work, so I really don't think I'd buy a diesel now.
After a couple of diesels I've switched back to petrol.
Didn't really need diesels for my annual mileage (~6k), but I just fancied the power delivery, and for overtaking they were less effort - just keep the revs over 2000 and I could overtake quickly and safely in any gear, much easier than winding up a peaky petrol engine.
As for the narrow power band, I find I have the same issue with my current petrol, which needs 4000+ revs to go hard then the red line is at 6500, so still a 2500rpm powerband.
Switching from a diesel averaging say 50mpg to a petrol car at 30-35mpg is costing me around £400 a year extra in fuel, but I ended up paying far more to sort various problems with my last diesel anyway so it's irrelevant.
DPFs and the increasing unreliability of modern diesels put me off buying a newer one.
Didn't really need diesels for my annual mileage (~6k), but I just fancied the power delivery, and for overtaking they were less effort - just keep the revs over 2000 and I could overtake quickly and safely in any gear, much easier than winding up a peaky petrol engine.
As for the narrow power band, I find I have the same issue with my current petrol, which needs 4000+ revs to go hard then the red line is at 6500, so still a 2500rpm powerband.
Switching from a diesel averaging say 50mpg to a petrol car at 30-35mpg is costing me around £400 a year extra in fuel, but I ended up paying far more to sort various problems with my last diesel anyway so it's irrelevant.
DPFs and the increasing unreliability of modern diesels put me off buying a newer one.
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