RE: Lotus 3-Eleven - official!
Discussion
Tuna said:
It's possible that the 1.6 is only there for EU emissions targets.
Having spoken to people at the factory, the 1.6 was chosen with a target CO2 output in mind in order to improve sales in countries that place additional taxes on the purchase of above average emissions.Whilst I agree that the 1.6 did not really move the Elise on, or encourage many existing owners to change, the engine is still well suited to the car. It's fun, engaging and rewarding to drive.
As I understand it the Exige S is due to get the Evora 400 treatment late next year, which will include weight saving, re-designed interior, power hike and cut down sills - all on the (Elise) tub. I would imagine that this will act as a catalyst to the re-design of a new Elise too.
milesr3 said:
As I understand it the Exige S is due to get the Evora 400 treatment late next year, which will include weight saving, re-designed interior, power hike and cut down sills - all on the (Elise) tub. I would imagine that this will act as a catalyst to the re-design of a new Elise too.
If they can cut down the sills further than the S2 without severely messing up torsional rigidity, you've got to wonder why they didn't do so years ago. kambites said:
milesr3 said:
As I understand it the Exige S is due to get the Evora 400 treatment late next year, which will include weight saving, re-designed interior, power hike and cut down sills - all on the (Elise) tub. I would imagine that this will act as a catalyst to the re-design of a new Elise too.
If they can cut down the sills further than the S2 without severely messing up torsional rigidity, you've got to wonder why they didn't do so years ago. 
As we've discussed before, those high sills are a major contributor to the Elise/Evora tub's crash safety, and undoubtedly the stiffness of the tub as well. I think dropping them should only be done after a very serious look at the market for these cars. Sure, plenty of people would like lower sills, but how badly do they want them and what percentage of potential buyers are they?RobM77 said:
As we've discussed before, those high sills are a major contributor to the Elise/Evora tub's crash safety, and undoubtedly the stiffness of the tub as well. I think dropping them should only be done after a very serious look at the market for these cars. Sure, plenty of people would like lower sills, but how badly do they want them and what percentage of potential buyers are they?kambites said:
If they can cut down the sills further than the S2 without severely messing up torsional rigidity, you've got to wonder why they didn't do so years ago.
It might simply be that Gales has decreed that they must be lowered. Perhaps making small sacrifices in rigidity and weight (possibly offset by small weight savings elsewhere) has been judged to be worth it to widen the appeal of the Elise. Or there has been a new idea around the tub design that enables a lower sill without a weight/rigidity penalty?
RobM77 said:
As we've discussed before, those high sills are a major contributor to the Elise/Evora tub's crash safetyMax_Torque said:
RobM77 said:
As we've discussed before, those high sills are a major contributor to the Elise/Evora tub's crash safetythe ronin said:
They are going to need more than mojo when they design and build cars like the 311...
The car is under tire and claimed aerodynamic downforce of up to 215 kg at 150 mph (240 km/h) – Race version, does not help in the corners unless you can maintain that speed...
The use and design of the supercharger setup puts too much weight up high screwing up the CG.
Seriously Lotus design something for performance rather than cutting holes in the deck lid in order to fit the body work..
How the hell do you work on the engine through that deck lid ?
Lotus this is how ya do it..
1,700 lbs wet and 680whp from 1.8 ltr. 245x17 fronts 335x18 rears....
Just sayin...
:OThe car is under tire and claimed aerodynamic downforce of up to 215 kg at 150 mph (240 km/h) – Race version, does not help in the corners unless you can maintain that speed...
The use and design of the supercharger setup puts too much weight up high screwing up the CG.
Seriously Lotus design something for performance rather than cutting holes in the deck lid in order to fit the body work..
How the hell do you work on the engine through that deck lid ?
Lotus this is how ya do it..
1,700 lbs wet and 680whp from 1.8 ltr. 245x17 fronts 335x18 rears....
Just sayin...
WCZ said:
the ronin said:
They are going to need more than mojo when they design and build cars like the 311...
The car is under tire and claimed aerodynamic downforce of up to 215 kg at 150 mph (240 km/h) – Race version, does not help in the corners unless you can maintain that speed...
The use and design of the supercharger setup puts too much weight up high screwing up the CG.
Seriously Lotus design something for performance rather than cutting holes in the deck lid in order to fit the body work..
How the hell do you work on the engine through that deck lid ?
Lotus this is how ya do it..
1,700 lbs wet and 680whp from 1.8 ltr. 245x17 fronts 335x18 rears....
Just sayin...
:OThe car is under tire and claimed aerodynamic downforce of up to 215 kg at 150 mph (240 km/h) – Race version, does not help in the corners unless you can maintain that speed...
The use and design of the supercharger setup puts too much weight up high screwing up the CG.
Seriously Lotus design something for performance rather than cutting holes in the deck lid in order to fit the body work..
How the hell do you work on the engine through that deck lid ?
Lotus this is how ya do it..
1,700 lbs wet and 680whp from 1.8 ltr. 245x17 fronts 335x18 rears....
Just sayin...
It depends how you want to do things, whether you want to focus on straight line speed or handling, and how much you're limited by emissions and regulations etc. Ronin's car is amazing, and I'm not detracting from it, but, if we go through those points in turn:Thinner wheels will give a bit better steering feel and less steering weight, plus better aquaplaning performance if you keep the same tyre for wet and dry. That's completely down to personal preference of course. With the power it's got, the 3-Eleven will be fine on those tyres I'm sure. If I'm not competing (which like most customers I wouldn't be in a 3-11), then I'm just having fun, and personally I'd rather have more delicate car that slides around than a super grippy one, although Ronin's car's tye temperature management is going to be better, so there are pros and cons (my 2-Eleven overheats its rear tyres on a day like today even if you drive super delicately).
The aero will help at all speeds, not just 150mph, but obviously it just increases with the square of speed, so yes, you won't feel much at 60mph, but there are plenty of corners on all UK tracks that will be taken at aero significant speeds - not 150mph, but 90-100mph quite easily (most circuits in the UK have several 90mph+ corners in a car like this) and the aero will really be felt then. You wouldn't really want much more aero than that in a road car anyway due to issues with choosing the spring rates - the 2-Eleven's aero manifests as good stability in high speed corners. The present aero/mech grip balance will probably give the 3-11 a great amount of high speed stability and low speed delicacy and 'Lotus'ness, which is a balance that most people will want - delicate fun in lower speed stuff and stability and confidence through the Pouhons and Eau Rouges of this world.
Regarding the deck lid, I'm sure that's just a styling thing and it's part of a proper engine cover that comes completely off like the 2-Eleven. You're not supposed to work on the engine with an endoscope through the deck lid
Regarding the forced induction route, most people prefer supercharging because of the lag issues with turbocharging. Yes, supercharging usually results in less overall power like for like, but for most people, turbocharging a Lotus is not a desirable option due to the negative effects on driveability. It's a matter of taste though. The M400 for example is not to my taste because of the turbo lag and how it interferes mid-corner, whereas many others love it. However, I'm with Ronin completely on the centre of gravity issues and as I've always said, the first improvement I would throw at my 2-Eleven if I could would be to turn the engine around and drop it right down in the chassis - for OEM restrictions and budget reasons though, that option is not available to Lotus right now.
I love the 3-Eleven as it is
And Ronin's creation also, which is utterly awesome. They're just different from each other, not better or worse. Plus we must remember Lotus' restrictions in terms of budget, legality and regulations etc. I think Ronin and I would both love to see a longitudinal engine with dry sump, sequential box and loads of power from a specialist built engine, but that's not going to happen in a road car from Lotus for £82k! Besides, if like me that sort of engineering purity is more your cup of tea, then do what I'm doing right now and buy a slicks and wings single seater instead 
That's a totally different sort of car though for a different purpose - oh and Lotus did that too a few years ago! As 'The Pits' said earlier - a car for all occasions Edited by RobM77 on Monday 29th June 15:16
Edited by RobM77 on Monday 29th June 15:17
braddo said:
It might simply be that Gales has decreed that they must be lowered.
Could be. Every normal person who has been a passenger in mine has made a huge song and dance about getting in and out, especially with the hard-top on. Whereas I don't give it a second thought. Normal people don't buy Elises or Exiges though and side impact protection is a big plus for me.Monkey boy 1 said:
Thought it came from the 111 which was the original Elise code
I also thought that's where the 2-11 name was derived from.On the subject of sill changes, have there been advances in aluminium manufacturing that would allow the same strength from a different shape? After all, the Elise chassis was designed in the mid nineties.
RobM77 said:
SpudLink said:
Monkey boy 1 said:
Thought it came from the 111 which was the original Elise code
I also thought that's where the 2-11 name was derived from.Could not resist it as a 211 owner and since my car has hardly depreciated at all during ownership. i had to do it put a deposit down this morning on the 311, The dealer said i was No 4 today at 09:30am at that rate they will sell them all pretty quick with only 311 builds. It will join the 211 in the garage next spring, cannot wait this thing is going to be the fastest car i have ever owned. At least i am hoping so. its scary enough the 211 at full chat on the road, I have even driven it in the the snow for a buzz, This should give the required dose of adrenalin if i dont kill myself in it.
I think thats what these cars are all about extreme adrenalin hits.
The feel of a Lotus through back the wheel is superior to any other car i have driven. including Ferrari Maclaren and Porsche Mercedes Audis all muted sorry just my point of view. OK no Doors no roof slight disadvantage, but most people with one of these will not use it as a daily driver. and will have another boring sensible car for when it rains like my RS6 C7.
Frankly its a bargain for what it can do price is pitched spot on and no i do not work for Lotus.
I think thats what these cars are all about extreme adrenalin hits.
The feel of a Lotus through back the wheel is superior to any other car i have driven. including Ferrari Maclaren and Porsche Mercedes Audis all muted sorry just my point of view. OK no Doors no roof slight disadvantage, but most people with one of these will not use it as a daily driver. and will have another boring sensible car for when it rains like my RS6 C7.
Frankly its a bargain for what it can do price is pitched spot on and no i do not work for Lotus.
milesr3 said:
Could be. Every normal person who has been a passenger in mine has made a huge song and dance about getting in and out, especially with the hard-top on. Whereas I don't give it a second thought.
They do that in the smart roadster (especially with the roof bars clipped in), and even in TTs and Siroccos I had as rentals. No wonder SUVs fly out of the show rooms...I doubt they'll sell many more due to lowered sills. On the other hand, they have 20 years experience with the tub now and perhaps something in manufacturing or materials tech has improved enough, so they can pull it off without compromising performance or safety? To paraphrase a famous Finn: I'm sure they know what they are doing
.IMVHO, problem is that while the hot models look like excellent value for money, the Elise range struggles a bit when just looking at numbers. Power/weight of the entry level Elise has roughly stayed the same compared to the 96 car. Which is not at all what happened in hot hatch land. No more a 'Giant Slayer' sadly... For ~ 10k€ less than a Club Racer, you can get your arse into a Civic Type-R here. Tough sell. The S looks a bit better, but price wise it has to compete with the Boxster...
They can't make them cheaper, but the world of mass produced stuff has moved on. Toyota is currently revamping the entire engine range, so perhaps that can help even if it means FI...
Kolbenkopp said:
IMVHO, problem is that while the hot models look like excellent value for money, the Elise range struggles a bit when just looking at numbers. Power/weight of the entry level Elise has roughly stayed the same compared to the 96 car. Which is not at all what happened in hot hatch land. No more a 'Giant Slayer' sadly... For ~ 10k€ less than a Club Racer, you can get your arse into a Civic Type-R here. Tough sell. The S looks a bit better, but price wise it has to compete with the Boxster...
Trouble is, it costs the large manufacturers almost nothing to put a larger engine in a hot hatch just to bump up the numbers and provoke a few sales. It won't make it handle like a Lotus. The Elise has always been expensive compared to mass produced machinery and has always sold on it's ride and nimbleness. You then go on to compare a top of the range hot hatch with the base level Elise. I'm not sure that there's any secret sauce they can put on it to make it competitive if all you care about is bhp/tonne, and as for value for money, there will always be the MX-5.Personally, I see no problem with the entry level machine maintaining the same power/weight - the original Elise was a complete blast to drive, so why change it? If Gales stays consistent with his recent changes, we're likely to see the base model axed, and more powerful models introduced at higher prices. Personally I think that'd be a shame.
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